Disney Theme Parks: Today vs. Yesterday

[crusader]

Becauase the attractions were about theme and subject and story.

And????

What about how poorly the subject and story were conveyed???
What about how poorly the contents of the attraction were installed????
What about how lame the presentation was for the most part - over and over and over again.

You want to criticize Mission Space but you have absolutely nothing but praise for Horizons???? That my friend is very telling indeed.

Just look at Horizons - and tell me there aren't any similarities in the decor and physical content between that attraction, Imagination, Spaceship Earth, Carousel of Progress, etc...

You toss story around like a cheap suit. The story: If you read the script and view the pictures, was extremely weak. Nobody went to that exhibit for a reason – it wasn’t worth their time.

If AK were built with all that molded plaster and bad presentation, and the other attractions were all pretty much the same you'd be all over it.

Why is EPCOT being excused???

Well, given the fact that Walt was infallible - it must have been Card and Roy.

It's the people who knew what WDW used to be, and the people who never will...

I cannot believe you are trying to use this line to defend Future World. To even imply it was originally built to perfection and now that World of Motion and Horizons have been replaced guests will never know what it used to be is ludicrous! Thank God we still have Imagination to remind us of such greatness.

Don't misunderstand me, I happen to feel Future World has some really great exhibits. But comeon! That park was FAR from the supremity you refer to. I do believe some honesty is in order - Many of us have been to that park since it's inception so you can't try and pull the wool over our eyes with the old "we were there and saw it" routine

 

[Planogirl]

Everyone here could go on and on (and have!) about the reasons why attractions such as Horizons quit drawing. I have completely different opinions for this than others here and I'm as likely to be right as anyone else so I won't attempt to argue my case. I don't agree that this attraction didn't deserve repeated viewings however. Our experience is that 100 viewings wasn't enough but maybe we're just odd.

However, I still haven't seen an answer to my questions. If Epcot's Future World had such a flawed theme, what should it be? What is it now? The new attractions certainly have little to do with the future so what exactly is the focus?

 

[DancingBear]

Goodbye, EPCOT, hello:

DisneyExplore!

Explore the histories and cultures of the world!
Explore the natural world!
Explore space!
Explore how science and technology have developed, how they affect our lives, and how they might affect us in the future!
Explore the workings of the human body!
Explore the limits of human imagination!
Explore how foreigners have really different tastes in soda pop!

 

[MelissathePooh]

I think we should all chip in and send AV some snowglobes for Christmas!

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

I was going to let it go, but seeing it was slow and it is something I would say to friends that I thought were not seeing the situation quite right… anyway… here goes…

Ahhh.....but you see, he and his ilk are the only ones who know the REAL snow globes that everyone else SHOULD be looking at

I don’t think I’d be too far off base to say that you consider me one of his ‘ILK’. Right?

Well, as usual Mr. Kidds, you missed the point entirely!!

Sometimes they may hold the card, sometimes they only think they do, but playing it as such is in poor taste, IMHO.

Poor taste or not… And at the risk of playing the same card: one question. How the heck would you know!?!?! Just how would you know if we really had the card or just thought we did? Let me clue you in. WE ALWAYS HOLD IT!!!! We don’t always play it. In fact we play it very, very seldom. It is only when the frustration mounts to the near breaking point that the card comes out of our hand. And like it or not, Mr. Kidds, IT IS TRUMP!!!

I usually find playing that Disney superiority card to be a rather ineffective way of continuing a conversation.

Yes. You are right. It ends the conversation. IT IS TRUMP!!

Then again, some have taken to only making sarcastic (and not so sarcastic) one offs, as opposed to really trying to educate people in an effective manner as to what is truly different and why their viewpoint might hold more merit.

I really hope you aren’t referring to Another Voice!! I’m certain he doesn’t need me to defend him, but if you’ve listened to him specifically over the past couple years you would have learned the equivalent of a PhD in Disney history, philosophy and even the nuts and bolts of day to day operations and maintenance.

But “some have taken to only” winning points in semantic instead of philosophy.

And “some have taken to only” pounce on an occasional misstep or overactive hyperbole instead of taking the time to understand the LIVING history being brought to the table.

“Effective manner”!! I’ve never read anyone more interesting on a fan based web-site. He’s insightful, intelligent and knowledgeable WITHOUT being pedantic, condescending or patronizing. Once in a while he can use sarcasm as an art form. And he is polite! I know it was a concerted effort on my part (DisDuck and Peter) and AV’s (I think though I never talked to him about it) to make this board as tolerable as possible and polite as possible (although lately I’ve noticed a bit more rancor on all sides. And I personally don’t like it a bit!!).

Mr. Kidds, who the heck do you think set the tone of ‘courtesy’ for this board!!?? Why do the moderators hardly EVER enter the fray? Why doesn’t (didn’t) this board turn into RADP a long, long time ago? You think that happened all by itself!!?? By accident!?! We started off with two separate boards with one post a week (if we were lucky)!! We could, those of us that cared, shape it into anything we liked. It may have been before your time here but we worked very hard to maintain a good nature. We learned who we couldn't talk to and for the most part kept it that way. We learned to use intelligent language and stick (for the most part) to intellectual concepts. And it wasn't always easy!! There were a few times early on when I got into with a certain poster named...

OH MY GOD!!! I PLAYED THE CARD EVEN HERE!!! Sorry!! Didn't mean to fall into the ILK category for the DIS boards. I just thought you'd like to know how things started and how it grew and what happened before you became aware of things. Again, sorry. It won't happen again!! I'll keep the card in my hand from here on out!!

Anyway, when I first discovered AV to be something more than an average poster, I started copying some of his more eloquent posts. I have them on a couple floppies somewhere. I’m sure you did too, so that you could reference back to that brilliant piece he did on EPCOT, which delineated how it was to be the center point of all of WDW. Or the ones he wrote on… WHAT!?!!? You don’t have any!!! Well, do a search and tell me, until very recently (having to deal with the other “ILK”) when he was NOT educational, when he was NOT informative, when he was NOT intelligent and especially when he was NOT courteous.

Maybe some feel like that is a pointless endeavor, but resorting to "nanny, nanny, pooh, pooh - I know more than you do" isn't any more productive (if you ask me - which nobody did).

Yeah. I know Mr. Kidds. I really do know. And I understand. And I even agree with you. But you know what? Sometimes it just feels good!!!

 

[d-r]

But you know Landbaron, I guess it turns out that there are some fairy tales I have stopped believing in after all.

This "Disney Card" thing. Oh my goodness. It is kind of funny, isn't it? Are we going to have to start trying to list all of our trips in our .sigs now? Maybe then we will paste in which dvc we have points at, who our favorite disney dogs and cats are? What is our favorite goofy short? Do we prefer the old version of freaky friday or the new? What about Parent Trap? Are we going to try to figure out which one of us set foot in walt disney world first? Then they can be king? Gosh, I thought we had passed the entrance exam with that history sticky thing; now we have to have cars and snow globes, too? Maybe we can have some Disney Duels to see who can out disney who. Heck maybe that is what we've been doing the last couple of years for that matter. Ok, since my Ph.D. isn't in "Disney," to be honest I really hope we don't fall in to playing who is more disney than who or who is the most old school disney or who's disneyness trumps whom's or whatever that is. Jeepers.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Well! D.R.!! I can see I wasn’t clear. Or you let my meaning shoot right over your head. Still, I’m probably to blame. I try to speak metaphorically and I usually fail. So let’s cut through all BS and just write in plain sentences.

Are we going to have to start trying to list all of our trips in our .sigs now? Maybe then we will paste in which dvc we have points at………….

No. Of course not. But I gotta tell ya!! It's more than a little frustrating at times. I just don’t understand why there are some who refuse to believe what a virtually EVERYONE who has a history with the company says.

Ever notice it’s usually the people who visited since the early seventies (or before and were old enough to really appreciate it) who are the hardest on the company. They are the ones bemoaning the loss of philosophy and the loss of standards. Not every single visitor on the Rumors Board, but the vast majority. Why is that do you suppose? Does the thought even occur to you?

And conversely, why is it that most people who “discovered” Disney in the 1990s ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to believe it was GOBS better in the 1970s? On what do they base their refusal to listen? On what do they base their refusal to accept?

Do you know? Cause I’d really like an answer to that one!!

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Sorry to post two in a row, but this thought struck me about three minutes after I posted the above.

Do you remember the play or movie Camelot? At times on the DIS I feel an awful lot like King Arthur. On the battlefield. About to go out in a blaze of glory and he knows it.

He sees a small boy. And he sends him away, but before sending him away he tells him all about the glory of his realm and the greatness of Camelot. He talks and talks. Relating all stories and tales of the HIS England. And the boy nods, wide eyed and understanding. He then goes off to keep the memory alive. (music swells, fade to black)

Only in my case the boy looks up at me and casually says, “Whatever. You may think it was great then, but England’s pretty cool now!!”

And I stare at him in utter bewilderment. And I say, we had this table, and we made it round so no one was at the head. And we had laws. And we did great deeds. There was this Grail… and we even had a magician… and there was peace throughout the land… and we looked out for one another… and… and… and…

The boy shrugs and says, “But England’s pretty cool now!! It ROCKS!!!”

So I try again. Wording things just a bit different and maybe letting a little sarcasm in, which just ticks off the lad and he finally says, “Listen Pops!! Don’t wave your credentials at me!! I don’t care what you think you had!! England’s GREAT now!! In fact, it’s better than ever!! So take your archaic table (that was designed WRONG in the first place) and shove it up your…”

I really don’t know if I made a point or not. I suppose the people of Camelot will understand my frustration and disappointment that I can’t get everyone to see what I SAW.

And I suppose the little boys among us will say, “Whatever”.

 

[mitros]

I have to agree with you baron. While I am WDW "newbie", our first visit was in 1988, I still appreciate what you say about the Disney of yore. A lot of my family members have been going there since the 70s and always told me how great things were, and encouraged us to go for years . When we first started to go, we were mesmerized. We still are, but even since 1988, we have seen huge changes. So, I do appreciate where you are coming from.

 

[DancingBear]

Oh, let me think back. Ahhh, yes, I remember. It was 1972, I was a veteran of Disneyland (having had grandparents who lived in Orange Co, CA), and was having my first visit to Walt Disney World. A whole Disney world!

Look, Mom, we're going right through that hotel!

Magic Kingdom's a blast! Look at the lines for that new Country Bear Jamboree show. Hey, whaddya know, it's brought to you by Pepsi Cola and Frito Lay!

Gee, It's a Small World sure doesn't look as nice as in California.

Whaddya mean, they don't have the Pirates ride?

How many more E-tickets do we have?
____________________

Yeah, I remember what it was like. It was fantastic! As was our visit in December, 2002, when we did things like--breakfast at Boma, followed by touring the inside and outside at AKL--listening to a tuba band, and a chorus, singing Christmas carols at the Boardwalk--watching Fantasmic--playing golf at Osprey Ridge--none of which were around in 1972.

Sure, there are things which are not as good as before, and there are attractions that we will miss. Management has made many mistakes. But, there is a lot of great new stuff as well.

And, although I don't have the figures at hand to prove this, I think that, given inflation and all of the deals being offered, the per-day cost of a Disney trip has probably not increased substantially during that time period.

I always tend to be skeptical of the "everything was so much better then" crowd. Memories tend to compress time, and to be selective, and subjective. A certain generation of baseball fans will wax nostalgic about how much better baseball was in the 60's. But, if you look back at the stats, the fact is that baseball had a big slump in attendance throughout a big part of the 60s. Rules had to be changed to end the dominance of pitching and try to bring about more scoring.

Landbaron, can we persuade you to remove your Camelot-colored glasses, and see what some of SEE now?

 

[DisneyKidds]

And I suppose the little boys among us will say, “Whatever”.

Yes, it has been a bit slow……………and I would just let it go, but that may be construed as saying “whatever”, and I’d hate to be called a little boy . And we are all friends so we should work this stuff out……………So I’m sorry King Baron, I have to say that your little anecdote only makes me wonder who the little boys among us really are . As a rather talented songwriter, whom someone around here might respect, once penned………”Time seems to stand quite still, in a child’s world it always will………”*

Honestly, if that is how you view the discussions around here I happen to think you are dead wrong. Frustrating at times? Yes. God YES!!!! One sided with the scholar on one side and the idiot with the blank stare on his face on the other? Hardly. If you believe the essence of what everyone on the other side of the aisle is saying is “Disney ROCKS, dude!”, then all our past discussion leave me a bed-sitter person who looks back and laments, another days useless energy spent* (too many days really). At the risk of saying things that were already covered in days of future past*, we don’t live in a static world and EVERYONE brings a unique and valuable perspective to the table - not just those who were post-pubescent in 1971. Even if some people’s perspectives might be a little off on certain subjects, the trump card dismissal can still be seen as insulting. If there is failure to listen and comprehend it goes both ways my friend, and I can say that looking at this double digit pager as an observer – so I don’t say that out of frustration of not having my points understood.

……….but if you’ve listened to him specifically over the past couple years you would have learned the equivalent of a PhD in Disney history, philosophy and even the nuts and bolts of day to day operations and maintenance.

Yes, a wonderful source who has taught many a person many a thing about Disney. Heck, there are a lot of great sources out there. However, imagine you were someone seeing that poster post for the first time, and that “those who know and those who never will” post was the first they saw. Perhaps they’d think “Boy, that wasn't so nice and he seems to have a heck of a Disney superiority complex”. I’d hate to see anyone have that opinion of such a great resource, wouldn’t you? Let me tell you, it doesn’t matter one lick what I’ve done in the past if the best I can do now is patronizing fiction about 5th theme parks and dismissive one liners……………..and I say that with the best of intentions. The fact that someone may have explained something a gazillion times to some people doesn't seem to me to be justification for dismissing someone else with a “quote of the day” one liner. I’ve been guilty of saying things in the past that I probably shouldn’t have, like I probably am now, but more and more lately this big boy chooses to walk away when there is nothing valuable he can add to the discussion. Why, oh why didn’t I do it this time………………………………

I have had less of a passion for posting lately, and if the best we can do now is “IT IS TRUMP”……..well, further into lurk mode I’m likely to go.

Well! D.R.!! I can see I wasn’t clear. Or you let my meaning shoot right over your head.

If I had a nickel for every time you told one of us we “missed the point” ……..no, I think d-r and I know exactly what you are saying. Saying it five different ways doesn’t change it. Again, I can understand the frustration from your point of view, so I’m not discounting that – but don’t try and tell us we missed the point.

And conversely, why is it that most people who “discovered” Disney in the 1990s ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to believe it was GOBS better in the 1970s? On what do they base their refusal to listen? On what do they base their refusal to accept?

Is it they who really aren’t listening? Show of hands for those who ABSOLUTELY REFUSE………………Just what I thought, not too many hands. Some might say that some people’s fixation on just how much better it was makes them unable to see what is there today. That’s not to say that what is there today shouldn’t be better. That’s not to say that every point such a person makes about how things have changed isn’t spot on, but all that doesn’t invalidate every other perspective.

Well, as usual Mr. Kidds, you missed the point entirely!!

Funny, Herr Baron, how you say I missed the point entirely and then go on to say, well, TRUMP IS TRUMP – we hold it - it is what it is – like it or not – even if in poor taste – end of discussion. So exactly what point is it that I missed .

I still appreciate what you say about the Disney of yore.

Psst…………mitros…………….almost all of us do this as well

* like how I worked that stuff in? BTW, thanks for making me dig that album out. Even the album cover is a wonderful work of art.

 

[mitros]

I've said it before, many times, and i will say it again, everyone has the right to speak his mind, and everyone has the right to an opinion about what the other guy said. Great country we live in that allows us to do that, ain't it? And no, I am not trying to start an argument about how great our country is or isn't, thank you very much. Although as I stated earlier, people have the right to have that argument.

 

[Planogirl]

I can see both sides of the argument. Maybe it's because I started going in the 80's instead of the 70's or 90's where most members of the two camps seem to be. I can understand why the 90's group (those who either didn't go until the 90's or aren't particularly impressed with the work done in the 70's) is wowed because a lot of what is there is very good. I can also see why the 70's group differs in their feelings because it's normal to compare and some of the heart of Disney has disappeared over time. Just my OPINION!

However IF Disney is dumbing itself down, where does that slippery slope end? IF Disney eventually becomes more like any amusement park, what is to keep it from losing business over time? Please note that these are all "IF's" and in no way indicate that Disney is close to being like any amusement park. They may be headed down a slippery slope but it's a very long incline.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

OK!! Time for catch up!! And Mr. Kidds' post is a little long. So…

Planogirl!! How insightful!!

However IF Disney is dumbing itself down, where does that slippery slope end?

My very concern!!! And the single number one reason why I started posting in the first place. I have found that very few others, especially those who never lived the '70s versions, care.

DancingBear:

And, although I don't have the figures at hand to prove this, I think that, given inflation and all of the deals being offered, the per-day cost of a Disney trip has probably not increased substantially during that time period.

Wrong!

Landbaron, can we persuade you to remove your Camelot-colored glasses, and see what some of SEE now?

You have really got to be kidding. Or you have just crawled out from under a… (NO! Too harsh!! Let's try it again...) Or you are very new to the Rumor & News Board. Because if you’ve haven’t seen all my posts (especially my State of the Park Addresses) I can understand your point (but you need some history!! How ironic!!). However, if you have, again; YOU’VE GOT TO BE KIDDING!!!

Do you really think that I don’t SEE what you SEE!?!? That I can’t appreciate what is there!?!? I see it! I see it in ALL the things they do!! I do indeed see it Boma’s!! I LOVE it!!! (you must have missed my glowing account) And I see it in the water parks, especially Blizzard Beach (although, strangely Typhoon is my favorite)!! (you must have missed that as well!!) And I am WOWed to the point of speechlessness by Illuminations!! (missed that one too, I suppose).

And I also SEE it in Dinorama. And Aladdin. And the philosophical choices that this muddle headed group of managers make on a very, very consistent basis. Maybe you should remove whatever glasses you have on so you can SEE the philosophical difference. Go on, give it a try!!! The real world can be fun!! Unless you’re happy with materialistic snow globes and empty Disney philosophy!!








HINT: Just seeing the difference doesn’t take away from what is there. It merely gives you a realistic base line from which to gage recent and future actions.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

OK!! I’m ready to take on Mr. Kidds!!! Here goes!!!

like how I worked that stuff in?

I LOVED it!!!!




As to the rest of your post…

Whatever.

 

[DancingBear]

No, baron, I haven't gone back and reviewed all of your history. But thanks for the welcome to this board. I hope you receive a similar warm welcome should you ever venture over to join us on the Debate board.

Would you care to provide the proof as to why I am "Wrong!" regarding the relative cost of a WDW vacation then and now? My experience in trips where I paid the bills only goes back to '84.

Also, since I am deficient in my history of this board, I'd be interested to know just when the "Golden Period" of WDW was in your judgement. Pre-Epcot? Early Epcot?

 

[DisneyKidds]

As to the rest of your post…

Whatever.

Hey, at least we've separated the men from the boys .

Do you really think that I don’t SEE what you SEE!?!? That I can’t appreciate what is there!?!? I see it! I see it in ALL the things they do!!

A sante sana squashed bananna..............(DK whacks LB in the head with his walking stick)......................look haaaaaaarder. WDW is more than what you think it has become.............(clouds part, dramatic music plays, and LB all of a sudden gets it)

Glad we cleared tha up .

Heck, besides maybe AV, I'd bet I personally know more about Epcot and its history than Baron or anyone else

Yikes........who's gonna go nuts now . You keep it nice too Baron.

 

[Another Voice]

"However, if you go to Philarmagic for what it is, then you're going to be very impressed. "

Hmmm....

"for what it is"

How very well put. A nice summary, very to the point.

It used to be that Disney tried to impress without having pre-lower expectations or having to underline their sentences with qualifications.

No one walk underneath Spaceship Earth in the eighties and marveled about how amazing it was - for the money.

No one spent hours walking around World Showcase - only to tell themselves the trip was short becasue Disney always opened half-built parks.

No one watched the first-of-its-kind 3-D film at Imagination - and said "I guess this is better than the other five I've seen".

No one sat at the French restaurant and said this is good food - okay, so not a lot of people said that on opening day - but the effort was most certainly there.

Epcot tried to impress. For some it didn't (and still doesn't) pull it off - but for the vast majority of its visitors it does. It doesn't try to be a thrill park and people who claim Epcot is a failure because they don't puke enough probably also complain they can't order pizza at Kentucky Fried Chicken.

Epcot was from a time when Disney thought big, tried big, and succeded (and occanisional failed) big. Personally, I will take someone who really tries something impressive over someone who accomplishes that which is easy and safe.

The real magic is pulling off the impossible, not in acheiving the practical.

Disney used to dream big - but today those dreams are only the size of a safe, small, high profit margin snow globe.


P.S. Didn't we hear the same "everything's coming up roses" routine from Mr. Scoop before Dino-Rama opened? Now I'm getting worried about the Mickey Movie...

 

[hopemax]

Now DK, I was hoping you were going to say something in regards to DancingBear's question about relative costs of a WDW vacation, seeing as we just went through part of it.

Dancing Bear, I got a hold of an 1982 Birnbaum's guide to WDW, and it of course lists the rack rates for the WDW hotels (Polynesian, Contemporary, Golf Resort). I used the Travel Industry Association's "other lodging" price index (aka an industry appropriate inflationary statistic) to determine that a 1982 hotel price of $75 for a Garden room would approximately translate into a $205 rate in 2003. A 1982 $95 Tower/Lagoon room would translate into a $265 rate in 2003. I'm sure everyone is capable of looking up the actual 2003 rack rates for the Contemporary and Polynesian.

I'm sure, posters on the DIS have secured their DC, AP or other discounts and so it may not seem too bad. But what percentage of WDW on-property guests, do you think use those discounts. How many get the 10% AAA rate, how many just book their package from the WDTC and are paying the full rack rate?

This is just for WDW hotels though, I've been trying to get some stats on admission, I know that in 1982 if you were staying on-property a one day passport was $11.50. But what I don't know is what the industry appropriate inflationary rate would be. Just applying the CPI it would make it $21.89. The 2003 one-day, one park passport (which is what you would have gotten in 1982 since it was the MK only) is $55. Hotels increased at a rate of about 45% more than the CPI, you will have to decide if you feel that a increase of 150% more than the CPI is appropriate.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Now DK, I was hoping you were going to say something in regards to DancingBear's question about relative costs of a WDW vacation, seeing as we just went through part of it.

Don't think I wasn't tempted Hope...........but I'm just not in a head banging mood lately . Hey, I'm glad I've got people thinking in terms of "industry appropriate inflation statistics". It makes the discussion much more valuable IMHO. As to DancingBears comment, he/she is probably right, as qualified. Take the effective per day cost of something like the Fairytale Package and compare that to an appropriately inflated '72 day - might not be that far off. However, as AV pointed out *, in the days of yore you didn't have to qualify things to be able to make a positive statement about Disney. I really have no idea what % of people are paying rack. As with most things we discuss, that % is probably lower than some would thing and higher than others would think.

* AV - thanks for the post that provided a good viewpoint in a good way. Not that you should care about my approval, but kudos! Only one snow globe reference, and not used in an insulting, dismissive way .