Disney set to invest $17B in Florida parks, opening door for 5th theme park

[Cfabar1]

Why is it EPCOT just feels like such a work in progress… they did some major stuff there, and it still feels like it needs major work….

Here’s my dream for how some of this money gets spent!

- Do something with Wonders of Life pavilion…. Don’t have this huge empty pavilion in that part of the park… I think another thrill ride would be fine… or something that families could use while the big kids are waiting for test track, etc.

- Restore/renovate/expand the Millennium Village area…

- Add a proper country in the part of EPCOT that appears to be “Africa”…

- Use the expansion pad on Pandora, fix the Dinoland problems (but maybe keep Coundown to Extinction)

- Add a little more capacity to MGM studios - a Marvel land would be awesome, but I’m not holding my breath….

- If you want to go “beyond big thunder” fine, but personally I’d like to see them take the Stitch space and put something there, fix some of the problems with New Fantasyland, etc. Also, I hope whatever they do doesn’t mess with the Big Thunder experience….

- Expand the Monorail and or Skyliner to Disney Springs and maybe even Animal Kingdom…

 

[Elijah Abrams]

Why is it EPCOT just feels like such a work in progress… they did some major stuff there, and it still feels like it needs major work….

Here’s my dream for how some of this money gets spent!

- Do something with Wonders of Life pavilion…. Don’t have this huge empty pavilion in that part of the park… I think another thrill ride would be fine… or something that families could use while the big kids are waiting for test track, etc.

- Restore/renovate/expand the Millennium Village area…

- Add a proper country in the part of EPCOT that appears to be “Africa”…

- Use the expansion pad on Pandora, fix the Dinoland problems (but maybe keep Coundown to Extinction)

- Add a little more capacity to MGM studios - a Marvel land would be awesome, but I’m not holding my breath….

- If you want to go “beyond big thunder” fine, but personally I’d like to see them take the Stitch space and put something there, fix some of the problems with New Fantasyland, etc. Also, I hope whatever they do doesn’t mess with the Big Thunder experience….

- Expand the Monorail and or Skyliner to Disney Springs and maybe even Animal Kingdom…

And make Tropical Americas an expansion (with rides, shows, animal habitats, and an animal trail), not a retheme of an existing land, especially one of a land that can be improved to be better.

 

[HCL]

Like many here, I do not hate the idea of a 5th park but I think making AK and DHS full day parks will help with wait times too. I think the Tropical Americas expansion in AK, and an expansion in Pandora. I also think a change in the Tough to be a bug show would be good, so that people actually go into it. For DHS, they really need to build something in the Animation courtyard. A single indoor ride, maybe something like a dark ride version of Mickey's Philharmagic where you are riding through all the different beloved animated movies from the past 50 years, and then a couple of indoor shows even. But a third ride in Galaxy's Edge would be great too, it looks like there might be space for one. Combine that with Beyond Thunder Mountain at MK, and the new EPCOT and it will help lower lines.

I guess beyond all my personal requests above, what I really mean is that it needs to be expansions that people will like. If we get another park but it is essentially opening day DHS, then it won't really help to reduce lines or crowds. That is why I don't hate the idea of just expanding and building up the current parks. The only one that I feel like it is hard to expand upon and see it help is MK, because the walkways are so thin in places that it will always be crowded. That corridor between PPF and Small World is a nightmare.

 

[bryaalre]

I don't think Disney has fallen behind Universal at all as no matter what they have in the pipeline, sans a new park, it was always going to feel Disney was not doing enough to counter Epic Universe. As long as they announce new major projects (new lands or rides to increase capacity and not just re themes) that will be completed within the next 4-5 years, Disney is moving along business as usual.

We already know with near 100% certainty that Dinoland is becoming Tropical Americas and there seems to be real progress towards beyond big thunder. So, there are plans in the works, even if it was slower than it should have been in order to get to this point.

I don't expect Disney to announce 10 years worth of plans and expansions at D23 but I will be disappointed if we don't get a clear road map of the next 5 years.

I would, at the least, like them to announce a big project for each park at D23.

AK - Tropical Americas, Pandora expansion, rumored Lion King ride.

HS - Animation Courtyard (make the space useful with rides, a show, a whole new land, anything), Rock n Roller retheme.

MK - Beyond Big Thunder, anything in the stitch building

Epcot - Figment overhaul, update Pixar shorts, give Germany and/or Japan pavilions a ride like they were supposed to have, and do something with the Wonders of Life Pavilion.

 

[Jrb1979]

I would never want a Villains park. In my mind a Villains park should be dark and scary. Something like HHN light.

 

[BrianL]

I would never want a Villains park. In my mind a Villains park should be dark and scary. Something like HHN light.

I LOVE the Villains, but I agree. I don't think an entire park should be themed to them. Maybe a Land would be okay, but I'd actually rather save such things for the Halloween parties and other special events. That keeps it special to see them!

 

[Smugpugmug]

I would never want a Villains park. In my mind a Villains park should be dark and scary. Something like HHN light.

And with Disney removing scary elements from attractions and omitting villains from various dark rides (Frozen, Tiana, etc.), I doubt the Villains land would live up to fan expectations anyway.

 

[BrianL]

And with Disney removing scary elements from attractions and omitting villains from various dark rides (Frozen, Tiana, etc.), I doubt the Villains land would live up to fan expectations anyway.

Frozen has Elsa though - maybe she's not a villain, but she is intimidating! Also, the projection faces are pretty scary....

 

[Disney Bobby]

Iger knows how to spend some money. Like setting my wife loose with the credit card in a store that sells nothing but black pants.

 

[halfpintpeggy]

Isn’t the 17B going to be spread out for the next 10-20 YEARS???
That’s basically like, maintenance y’all.

 

[tjkraz]

Why is it EPCOT just feels like such a work in progress… they did some major stuff there, and it still feels like it needs major work….

Here’s my dream for how some of this money gets spent!

- Do something with Wonders of Life pavilion…. Don’t have this huge empty pavilion in that part of the park… I think another thrill ride would be fine… or something that families could use while the big kids are waiting for test track, etc.

- Restore/renovate/expand the Millennium Village area…

- Add a proper country in the part of EPCOT that appears to be “Africa”…

- Use the expansion pad on Pandora, fix the Dinoland problems (but maybe keep Coundown to Extinction)

- Add a little more capacity to MGM studios - a Marvel land would be awesome, but I’m not holding my breath….

- If you want to go “beyond big thunder” fine, but personally I’d like to see them take the Stitch space and put something there, fix some of the problems with New Fantasyland, etc. Also, I hope whatever they do doesn’t mess with the Big Thunder experience….

- Expand the Monorail and or Skyliner to Disney Springs and maybe even Animal Kingdom…

I've long been skeptical of the idea that Disney would build a 5th theme park. But to borrow a baseball analogy, right now Disney needs a home run, not more singles. While it would be nice to see the WoL pavilion used, another Epcot pavilion and more Skyliner, those are only marginally marketable additions. It's too late for Disney to have anything which will directly compete with Epic universe. But they can spend the next ~4 years building anticipation for a massive new addition.

So we'll see how they choose to spend the money.

People like to poke fun at Disney for slow construction. That's mostly exaggerated and/or self inflicted. Things like Tron and Guardians were obviously impacted by the pandemic. (We could argue that Disney should have used the time to make greater progress instead of less, but they made the choice they did.) Epcot's overhaul was impacted by the need to maintain a fully functional theme park while renovating about 75% of Future World.

Galaxy's Edge was less than 4 years from announcement to opening. Construction time was about 3 years. Toy Story Land was faster than that.

Speaking entirely as an outsider, many of Disney's delays seem to originate with Imagineering. With some level of indecision--political, fiscal or otherwise--leading the design process to take an inordinately long time to complete.

If they decided to invest in a new park, it's a completely blank canvas with no existing attractions or guests to work around. From a construction perspective, it shouldn't take more than 4 years to complete if the appropriate resources are made available. The dilemma seems to be more about how quickly Disney could finalize designs and the timeframe over which they wish to spread the capex.

The animal kingdom additions seem like a no-brainer since that park obviously needs a boost. I'm not sure what to make of "beyond big thunder." MK is already the most mature park of the 4, and it recently got Tron and Tiana. That's a case where I personally wish they were doing something smaller scale like replace Stitch's Great Escape. The fact that they appear poised to announce a presumed ~$1B expansion to MK is probably the biggest strike against any hopes of a 5th park.

 

[Pluto777]

Watching my DIS stock go lower and concerned about my sizable DVC investments I want only the best for the Disney company. It seems to me that the fix for all the problems is simple: ROLL BACK THE CLOCK!

Why not simply go back to the policies that WORKED so perfectly just a few years ago? The old, free simple fastpass system, extra magic hours for onsite guests (yes I know they have this to a degree now), the free Magic express for onsite guests (if they worry about losing money on M.E. they could make it a 5 night minimum?), the simple old systems that worked SO well and generated such customer loyalty! Walt himself said it best: "Quality will out". It's the old fashioned way of doing American business successfully - you make the customers happy and they will come more and spend more! The customers will come back and the profits will follow. Come on Disney, we are routing for you!

 

[reddog21]

Watching my DIS stock go lower and concerned about my sizable DVC investments I want only the best for the Disney company. It seems to me that the fix for all the problems is simple: ROLL BACK THE CLOCK!

Why not simply go back to the policies that WORKED so perfectly just a few years ago? The old, free simple fastpass system, extra magic hours for onsite guests (yes I know they have this to a degree now), the free Magic express for onsite guests (if they worry about losing money on M.E. they could make it a 5 night minimum?), the simple old systems that worked SO well and generated such customer loyalty! Walt himself said it best: "Quality will out". It's the old fashioned way of doing American business successfully - you make the customers happy and they will come more and spend more! The customers will come back and the profits will follow. Come on Disney, we are routing for you!

The problem is not with the parks so why would they change anything??

 

[etherealcaitiff]

Watching my DIS stock go lower and concerned about my sizable DVC investments I want only the best for the Disney company. It seems to me that the fix for all the problems is simple: ROLL BACK THE CLOCK!

Why not simply go back to the policies that WORKED so perfectly just a few years ago? The old, free simple fastpass system, extra magic hours for onsite guests (yes I know they have this to a degree now), the free Magic express for onsite guests (if they worry about losing money on M.E. they could make it a 5 night minimum?), the simple old systems that worked SO well and generated such customer loyalty! Walt himself said it best: "Quality will out". It's the old fashioned way of doing American business successfully - you make the customers happy and they will come more and spend more! The customers will come back and the profits will follow. Come on Disney, we are routing for you!

As much as I would love all those things, I think you would see your stock drop even lower if those changes were enacted. All those nickels and dimes add up.

 

[Cfabar1]

Fundamentally Disney has to decide whether they are a middle class, premium, or luxury experience.

Right now they are a middle class experience charging luxury prices. That is not tenable for the long term and why parks are having issues.

Folks are being priced out and before the argument under Chapek was lower crowds enhance the guest experience and those guests will spend less. Now we are seeing a softening in parks spend.

so what can they do about it? That goes back to where they want to position the parks product.

 

[zackiedawg]

The problem is not with the parks so why would they change anything??

Actually, per the recent earnings report, the problem IS with the parks. Streaming services just turned their first ever profit, and movie division has 3 $1B films this year. The parks division on the other hand:

"The entertainment giant reported weaker-than-expected results in its theme-parks division as it announced third-quarter earnings on Wednesday, in another sign that consumers are reining in spending as economic storm clouds gather.

Disney's operating profit for its domestic parks and experiences division declined by 3% from the previous year to $2.2 billion, while revenues grew by 2% to $8.4 billion.

The company blamed the decrease in operating income at its domestic theme parks on high costs linked to inflation and a larger drop in consumer demand than expected.
Disney warned that the "demand moderation" for its parks and experiences would likely continue and could impact the next few quarters."

While trying to attribute it to inflation costs, they also mention drop in consumer demand larger than expected. Part of this could well be the huge increases in cost while stripping away more and more from the park experiences and perks. As someone who goes 4-5 trips a year, visited the parks every year since 1971, and has annual passes and DVC, I've seen a notable decline over the past 3-4 years, from Pandemic forward, in out of control expenses, nickel-and-diming and charging for add-ons and experiences that were once free, and less 'magic' in general in the parks with some employees not meeting the traditional Disney standards of hospitality and friendliness, park plans being canceled or stripped down/cheapened, menus being genericized, perks being removed, and general inconveniences with more special-ticket events closing parks sooner, the muddled ride pass system that once was so simple with FastPass now only useful if one pays more for the services, and so on. It's not been enough to make me not want to go, as the conveniences still outweigh the downsides since I'm so close and DVC/Annual Pass help defray some of the cost increases, but it's still noticeable and disappointing to a place I love so much for nearly all of my life.

I would love to see some changes to the way the parks have been run lately - and I have several family and friends who no longer go specifically for all those reasons above - they would certainly return if the parks were run like they were 6-8 years ago.

 

[clarker99]

Actually, per the recent earnings report, the problem IS with the parks. Streaming services just turned their first ever profit, and movie division has 3 $1B films this year. The parks division on the other hand:

"The entertainment giant reported weaker-than-expected results in its theme-parks division as it announced third-quarter earnings on Wednesday, in another sign that consumers are reining in spending as economic storm clouds gather.

Disney's operating profit for its domestic parks and experiences division declined by 3% from the previous year to $2.2 billion, while revenues grew by 2% to $8.4 billion.

The company blamed the decrease in operating income at its domestic theme parks on high costs linked to inflation and a larger drop in consumer demand than expected.
Disney warned that the "demand moderation" for its parks and experiences would likely continue and could impact the next few quarters."

While trying to attribute it to inflation costs, they also mention drop in consumer demand larger than expected. Part of this could well be the huge increases in cost while stripping away more and more from the park experiences and perks. As someone who goes 4-5 trips a year, visited the parks every year since 1971, and has annual passes and DVC, I've seen a notable decline over the past 3-4 years, from Pandemic forward, in out of control expenses, nickel-and-diming and charging for add-ons and experiences that were once free, and less 'magic' in general in the parks with some employees not meeting the traditional Disney standards of hospitality and friendliness, park plans being canceled or stripped down/cheapened, menus being genericized, perks being removed, and general inconveniences with more special-ticket events closing parks sooner, the muddled ride pass system that once was so simple with FastPass now only useful if one pays more for the services, and so on. It's not been enough to make me not want to go, as the conveniences still outweigh the downsides since I'm so close and DVC/Annual Pass help defray some of the cost increases, but it's still noticeable and disappointing to a place I love so much for nearly all of my life.

I would love to see some changes to the way the parks have been run lately - and I have several family and friends who no longer go specifically for all those reasons above - they would certainly return if the parks were run like they were 6-8 years ago.

The article is incorrect on demand front. From the 10-Q SEC filing, there was no drop in domestic theme park attendance YoY in Q3. Booked hotel nights were only down 0.6% but hotel revenue was up 3.4%. Domestic Revenue was up YoY. Margins took the hit and they said they see this happening for the next few quarters.

It has been clear for a year that domestic parks profits have been flat and are not currently a growth sector. Don't confuse flat for bad. Profits are way way up from FY2019.

They mentioned demand is fine across parks and DCL going forward just more pricing sensitivity in the market.

Investment in park capacity is needed for domestic parks profit growth. D23 will tell us the future but with no shovels in the ground in the USA growth is a ways away.

 

[tjkraz]

Actually, per the recent earnings report, the problem IS with the parks. Streaming services just turned their first ever profit, and movie division has 3 $1B films this year.

I thought it was only 2: Inside out and D&W. What's the third? There are contenders for later in the year (Alien, Moana, Lion King sequels) but those are all TBD. 2019 had 7 films over $1B with Avengers and Lion King combining for more than $4B. It was a good year.

The parks division on the other hand:

"The entertainment giant reported weaker-than-expected results in its theme-parks division as it announced third-quarter earnings on Wednesday, in another sign that consumers are reining in spending as economic storm clouds gather.

Disney's operating profit for its domestic parks and experiences division declined by 3% from the previous year to $2.2 billion, while revenues grew by 2% to $8.4 billion.

Thing is, a lot of the alternatives being proposed here involve lowering revenue (cheaper admission, get rid of Lightning Lane) and/or increasing expenses which in turn lowers profit (DME, more perks in the parks, longer hours.) While I'd love to think those moves would result in increased foot traffic that would more than offset the changes, that's unlikely to occur. Whatever Disney is making by charging nearly $30 per person, per day for LL is now a massive revenue stream. It's probably not accurate to say that Disney would just make that up with increased ticket and food sales if they went back to free FP.

Plus more people in the parks means a lesser experience for everyone. So that's not a great solution either. Increase crowds by 10-20% and everyone is waiting longer.

Unless you build more rides. Which requires more capital. And more cast members to staff and maintain. Which means higher expenses and less profit...

Disney's theme park revenue was up 2%. Universal's theme park revenue declined by more than 10% over the same period. This looks like more of an inflation / personal choice phenomenon than consumers revolting against Disney. The lower profits are a reflection of Disney having to offer hotel and ticket discounts to fill the rooms. Discounting when business is soft isn't necessarily a reflection that your entire business model is wrong.

 

[ucf_knight]

Right now they are a middle class experience charging luxury prices. That is not tenable for the long term and why parks are having issues.

I've never heard anyone describe Disney in this way before but I think in today's environment this is 100% accurate. I think the resorts reflect this thought the most. The park ticket pricing (when bundled with multiple days or fl resident deals) are rather close to what other theme parks charge but the hotels, food and merch are on another level with pricing.

 

[Minnie1222]

Right now they are a middle class experience charging luxury prices. That is not tenable for the long term and why parks are having issues.

Which theme park, in your opinion, is considered luxuriously high class?