Disney pricing the middle class out

[Minniesgal]

What has been the percentage increase of World citizens as opposed to U.S. citizens? There are many who travel to the USA and stay for weeks/months, they must also be outspending the U.S. middle class. What household income figure is being used to define middle class?

International visitors are a bit different, we go to Orlando rather than WDW. Some even go to Florida rather than WDW.

By that i mean we no longer see the parks as the main attraction. We like to shop, we like to eat at places like Perkins Pancake Place, Bahama Breeze, Smokey bones, Cheesecake Factory. We like some of the Disney Signatures for Dinner. Mostly things that Americans do not need to go to WDW to do. And yes we could go elsewhere but our memories of the kids being little are there so we love to go back. We will continue to go no matter how expensive the tickets get we might just skip the parks. We hedged years ago against lodging increases as we bought DVC.

And it might be the Brit in me but class is not defined by income level but by your profession.

 

[Teamubr]

I've been following this topic all weekend and agree with many of the common themes. Disney costs a lot and there is less at WDW today than there was 5 or 10 years ago... for the money.

I also think Mort summed up a common problem with forums. We know and analyze too much for our own good. For most WDW guests, ignorance is bliss.

I believe there is a very skewed curve of Disney people on this board.
Families that come once or twice in their life may not even know about what they are/were missing.

But I got wondering what was considered "middle class". My DW and I both work professional jobs and we do "ok". I consider us "middle class" and we can't afford to go to WDW every year. We make it every 2-3 years depending on schedules and money. Then I found this chart from listing the household income ranges by state to be considered middle class using the Pew Charitable Trust definition (67%-200% of the median household income). The chart is from April 2015 and represents 2013 salaries.

I was a little embarrassed when I realized I made quite a bit more than 200% of my state's median. Then I wondered how anyone at (or below) the median income could afford a family trip to WDW. For Missouri (where I'm from) you needed to earn between $31K-$47K to be in the lower 50th percentile. I guess planning and saving for several years, being very disciplined to a minimal budget, you could pull off the once in a lifetime trip. I just don't know that many people meeting the income requirements that are doing that.

So I'm starting to believe that Disney has already priced the "middle class" out of the parks. Certainly enough of them to impact annual attendance.

Link

j

 

[Happyinwonerland]

I don't feel like the middle class is priced out. Our family of 3 can go to orlando, stay off site, do 5 days of Disney, spend a couple days doing other orlando area sightseeing, and spend less than $4000, which is quite affordable.

What is out of middle class reach is going down, staying a week at a monorail resort, table service every meal, VIP experiences, etc.

 

[rteetz]

I don't feel like the middle class is priced out. Our family of 3 can go to orlando, stay off site, do 5 days of Disney, spend a couple days doing other orlando area sightseeing, and spend less than $4000, which is quite affordable.

What is out of middle class reach is going down, staying a week at a monorail resort, table service every meal, VIP experiences, etc.

But what about a family of four or five? Yes most can do it within their budget. I think you're right on with your second part tho.

 

[Castle2Castle]

So I'm starting to believe that Disney has already priced the "middle class" out of the parks. Certainly enough of them to impact annual attendance.

That would be the expectation given the rest of the narrative about prices (citing the least frequently paid highest prices) in the article. But attendance is still up across the parks.

 

[Planogirl]

I just keep thinking about how we used to stay at the Polynesian Resort. We did so when DS was a toddler and now he's in college. Our salaries have gone up but not at the rate of the Polynesian Resort's room rates.

I don't think that I'm somehow owed a stay there before anyone says that. It just boggles my mind that it's so different now.

As for comparing a trip to WDW to a day at a local themepark, apples to oranges IMO. Families don't normally go to that local place for a week so that one day cost may be something they can afford. You have to look at more than just the per day cost but also the overall cost. Besides our local Six Flags has tons of special deals even if their food stays lousy and expensive.

 

[Happyinwonerland]

But what about a family of four or five? Yes most can do it within their budget. I think you're right on with your second part tho.

A family of 5 is certainly more expensive, but that's the trade off you make when you decide to have more children. Bigger families cost more for everything, from groceries to a trip to the movie theater.

 

[AquaDame]

What household income figure is being used to define middle class?

This, IMO, is the real question here.

the main reason for price increases, costs going up. you have a huge workforce who just got >50 per hour raises and will get an additional >50 an hour next may. add to that the rising costs of benefits and the money has to come from somewhere. food costs go up so the cost of food in the park goes up. thats how things work. Living in florida I have heard complaints constantly about how theme park ticket prices are going through the roof. These places are businesses not a charity and a few years back two things happened that affected pricing. Florida voters passed an amendment to the state constitution that raised the minimum wage at the timme to over 7.00 an hour and then indexed it to inflaation from then on. Come forward to last year when the california minimum wage went up to 9.00 then 9.50 and eventually next year to 10.00 and hour. How does that affect florida? well universal, disney , and sea world all have parks in cali. so if their cali employees get the raises then the florida counterparts want it too and Disney is unionised. and get ready because there is a bill in the california legislature that would push that minimum wage to 13.00 an hour beginning in 2017. I hope governor brown has the sense to veto it but california is the most liberal state in the country so if you can't leave the state, then you are forced to pay. and so ticket prices will keep rising.

Honestly, if it were JUST because of wage increases I'd accept it with a smile on my face, but the recent raises are just that: recent. The increases have been ongoing much longer, and when you take the increases and spread it out amongst the millions of guests... I would think it'd be pretty minimal per park per day wise.

But I got wondering what was considered "middle class". My DW and I both work professional jobs and we do "ok". I consider us "middle class" and we can't afford to go to WDW every year. We make it every 2-3 years depending on schedules and money. Then I found this chart from listing the household income ranges by state to be considered middle class using the Pew Charitable Trust definition (67%-200% of the median household income). The chart is from April 2015 and represents 2013 salaries.

I was a little embarrassed when I realized I made quite a bit more than 200% of my state's median. Then I wondered how anyone at (or below) the median income could afford a family trip to WDW. For Missouri (where I'm from) you needed to earn between $31K-$47K to be in the lower 50th percentile. I guess planning and saving for several years, being very disciplined to a minimal budget, you could pull off the once in a lifetime trip. I just don't know that many people meeting the income requirements that are doing that.

So I'm starting to believe that Disney has already priced the "middle class" out of the parks. Certainly enough of them to impact annual attendance.
j

Again, thats the problem - what IS middle class? The range in the chart you provided is INSANE. 31K vs. 94K is somehow all 'Middle Class' for Missouri? That is a HUGE difference and I don't think they belong in the same group. If the median only makes it to 47K then that definitely swings the majority to erring on the side of less. Middle Class indeed... >_<​

 

[Happyinwonerland]

I think a lot of it depends on how you choose to spend your money as well. We are middle class, upper middle class for our state, according to the chart. We live in a modest house, with a $130,000 mortgage, drive modest vehicles, don't have cable, don't go out to eat often, and try to spend wisely on vacation.

At over six figures for our household income, we could probably afford a bigger house/more dinners out/nicer cars, but we'd rather travel more, so we choose to funnel more into a trip fund. Some people would rather live in their McMansion, so that's where they funnel their money. Others are car enthusiasts and spend money on that.

 

[rosedolph]

There price increases are well above standard inflation...it's straight profiteering and there is no argument...

But lets hear it...

Yes, and what's wrong with making a profit? I like to make money, and I am going to charge as much as I can for my work (I'm not turning down any raises) so why should Disney be any different? If people don't like the profit making side of Disney - don't support them.

 

[Teamubr]

But attendance is still up across the parks.

Agreed. My point was the increase must be coming from a group other than the middle class (using the definition from the Pew Foundation chart ) since they have likely been priced out and can't afford more than 1 trip a generation.

j

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Yes, and what's wrong with making a profit? I like to make money, and I am going to charge as much as I can for my work (I'm not turning down any raises) so why should Disney be any different? If people don't like the profit making side of Disney - don't support them.

First...there's no such thing as free market and there never will be...

But in regards to Disney - pure "as much as we can make" is not how they built and operated the best parks. There is a difference. It is actually shocking how many people can't put all the different components of their pricing together and see what is a good trend/idea and what is not.

 

[beer dave]

I think the difference is that times have changed for the middle class in the last 10 years.... prior to the bubble popping, people were living in bigger more expensive homes, spending on new vehicles, and spending on vacation, because they were confident that their current pay level was permanent.. Maybe now that things have settled out, and the losses have been tallied, people in the middle class have tightened their life styles to adjust for the new income ranges.... less expensive houses, more reasonable transportation costs, and a savings account for their vacations.... So the middle class has had an adjustment in income ranges, made the reality changes to fit into the new reality of life, and can still have their disney trips..... to hold on to (at least) the "memories".

Spoken from experience.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I think the difference is that times have changed for the middle class in the last 10 years.... prior to the bubble popping, people were living in bigger more expensive homes, spending on new vehicles, and spending on vacation, because they were confident that their current pay level was permanent.. Maybe now that things have settled out, and the losses have been tallied, people in the middle class have tightened their life styles to adjust for the new income ranges.... less expensive houses, more reasonable transportation costs, and a savings account for their vacations.... So the middle class has had an adjustment in income ranges, made the reality changes to fit into the new reality of life, and can still have their disney trips..... to hold on to (at least) the "memories".

Spoken from experience.

If you're saying that people are skeptical when the forces of business/government tell them how "good things are" and have learned their lesson about living off easy, fake consumer credit...

Then I agree/hope you're right and it would be a good thing.

The real estate bubble was a cataclysmic mistake in our economic history that hopefully will never be repeated...

You don't gamble on real estate like its a craps table at Caesars

 

[beer dave]

If you're saying that people are skeptical when the forces of business/government tell them how "good things are" and have learned their lesson about living off easy, fake consumer credit...

Then I agree/hope you're right and it would be a good thing.

The real estate bubble was a cataclysmic mistake in our economic history that hopefully will never be repeated...

You don't gamble on real estate like its a craps table at Caesars

Yeah that is what I am saying... thanks for the summary.

 

[ArwenMarie]

I don't feel like the middle class is priced out. Our family of 3 can go to orlando, stay off site, do 5 days of Disney, spend a couple days doing other orlando area sightseeing, and spend less than $4000, which is quite affordable.

What is out of middle class reach is going down, staying a week at a monorail resort, table service every meal, VIP experiences, etc.

I think this is key. What is the definition of a WDW trip? Like you said, if it's staying at monorail or Epcot resort, tons of table service etc, then it probably is priced out for many families.

But I still think there are lots of way to make it work especially since there are so many lodging and food options. If you're willing to go offsite, loads of more affordable options open up. If you can drive to WDW, even better.

The one item you can't change is the ticket prices though so it's too bad those may go up so much (if this is true).

 

[brooke789]

Very surprised to see that our two-earner household income is above the Upper Bound for a family living in SC on the chart above. Of course our state is down near the bottom because of LCOL.

Maybe in a few years with no daycare and all 3 kids in public school our income will feel different!

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I've been following this topic all weekend and agree with many of the common themes. Disney costs a lot and there is less at WDW today than there was 5 or 10 years ago... for the money.

I also think Mort summed up a common problem with forums. We know and analyze too much for our own good. For most WDW guests, ignorance is bliss.



But I got wondering what was considered "middle class". My DW and I both work professional jobs and we do "ok". I consider us "middle class" and we can't afford to go to WDW every year. We make it every 2-3 years depending on schedules and money. Then I found this chart from listing the household income ranges by state to be considered middle class using the Pew Charitable Trust definition (67%-200% of the median household income). The chart is from April 2015 and represents 2013 salaries.

I was a little embarrassed when I realized I made quite a bit more than 200% of my state's median. Then I wondered how anyone at (or below) the median income could afford a family trip to WDW. For Missouri (where I'm from) you needed to earn between $31K-$47K to be in the lower 50th percentile. I guess planning and saving for several years, being very disciplined to a minimal budget, you could pull off the once in a lifetime trip. I just don't know that many people meeting the income requirements that are doing that.

So I'm starting to believe that Disney has already priced the "middle class" out of the parks. Certainly enough of them to impact annual attendance.

Link

j

First...I loved your post

Second...the problem with income/labor statistics are that they seem to be computed based on a minimum, somewhat uncomfortable standard.

You can technically get buy on the statistics...but comfort and trips to beach club are not in the math.

Just as inflation numbers are bogus...as is often pointed out around here.

 

[Castle2Castle]

My point was the increase must be coming from a group other than the middle class (using the definition from the Pew Foundation chart ) since they have likely been priced out and can't afford more than 1 trip a generation.

From the narrative of the article, that wouldn't make much sense. It would require a smaller segment of the population (its "Wall Street dads") to respond to higher prices with increased visits, and to a great extent such that they compensate for the loss of a larger segment (the middle class) being priced out.

 

[Jess_S]

I'm not sure I'm saying anything that hasn't been said by other folks already, but my initial reaction to the article was that it buried what could have potentially been some good points in hyperbole, half truths and speculation. In particular:

• As others have said, I don't believe that a Disney World vacation was ever affordable for "everyone." I grew up in a family that was at the lower end of the middle class and going to Disney was a big stretch for my family only made possible because my mom was amazing at budgeting and saving money in other ways. (Our usual family vacation was a 1 week camping trip, so I remember how luxurious it seemed to stay at a hotel for vacation when we went to Disney). I had many friends who never got to go to Disney at all.
  
• It's pretty rare that I get offended on behalf of the wealthy, but the entire "Wall Street Dad" paragraph was ridiculous. While I'm sure there is some portion of the population that treats family vacations like a chore and is willing to pay any amount to get through the ordeal of spending time with their kids, I don't believe that this portion of the population is significant enough to justify the operation of an entire theme park. I also don't think that Disney's goal is to cater to people like this at the expense of others. I have seen zero Disney commercials featuring little girls getting expensive makeovers in the company of their nannies while their Dads sit across the room looking irritated and checking stock quotes on their cell phones.
• I'm pretty sure that Disney doesn't consider crowds and increased attendance a "problem" as the article calls it.
• According to the income charts that have been posted here, my family is smack in the middle of middle class for our state and Disney is affordable for us. As others have said, we prioritize vacations above other things like fancy cars, a big house, etc. We are also fortunate to be able to travel during off-peak times, which does make the trip more affordable. I certainly have co-workers making more than me who can't afford Disney because they have chosen to spend their money other ways.

Overall, I think that the real issue is the way the middle class is being squeezed in recent years, which has very little to do with Disney. (I also enjoyed reading the range of opinions here in this thread -- as as I always do on these boards).