Discipline advice needed.....

[badblackpug]

I have a friend whose son is the same way. He is way behind academically so he acts silly to take the attention off of that.

My 1st question is... is he receiving any services to help him catch up academically?

Now as to the discipline issue..

We had the same issue with my ex's daughter. No learning disability, just strictly behavior. I believe in reinforcing the school. My kids know that if you get in trouble at school, there will be more at home. We did a daily behavior contract. In the contract you focus on the particular behaviors that are a problem with your child. It is a contract that is signed by the teacher daily. It is the child's responsibility to get the contract signed. If the contract is not signed, either because the behavior expectations were not met or the child "forgot" the child is to go immediately to his room after school and stay there except for meals and bathroom. 3 unsigned behavior contracts result in staying in your room for the weekend. The thing with this, as with all discipline, is that you have to be willing to follow through no matter what. Just make a bunch of copies of the contract, put them in his book bag and tell him it is his responsibility to have one signed every day. Here is an example:


Date: ________________

Dear Mr./Mrs. Teacher

This is Johnny's daily behavioral contract. Please sign on the line below only if all of the following goals have been met. Comments are welcome, but not necessary.

Today Johnny:

1) Followed all directions
2) was not disruptive in class
3) completed all his class work and homework on time


Thank you,

The Smiths

Teacher signature: _________________________


Naturally you tailor it to your child's specific needs.

 

[shortbun]

Wow, what will you do next? I think you've waaay overreacted here. He's 8 and you have a long stretch of parenting to go. Have him tested, this is quite possibly outside his control as a little boy. Go in, make a plan with the teacher that you can both stick to. He needs constant and gentle but firm reminders as soon as he sins. When a teacher sends a note home, she/he hope the parent will know that she's asking for backup-not imprisonment. Ask to have his desk moved to a more quiet place so he can focus, ask to observe in his room so you can see specifically what he's doing. Could be the teacher requires perfection and is unreasonable too. I've driven a school bus, spent many whole days in classrooms as an aide, tutored distractable kids in halls and I know lots of teachers. There could be many causes-he could be following someone else's lead or be cold, or not able to hear or see everything from where he sits. He might be bored. Again, get him tested. Perhaps he needs an IEP or some other assistance that will guide him through traditional school. Just locking him in his room is NOT going to solve the problem, I promise. Water in a tube, when it's pushed down just seeps up and comes out someplace, kwim?

 

[PollyannaMom]

I am NOT suggesting that your son has ADD/HD, but I did want to point out that the ability to focus intently on something they enjoy (like Legos) is not a disqualifier, it's actually common in kids with it....

Do you know why not? It seems to me like a person either has the ability to pay attention, or they don't - but I've heard this before (when I wasn't able to ask questions about it) and wondered.

Back to the OP - Does your DS ever claim that he was paying attention? When mine was having some trouble last year, I explained to him that there was paying attention, but also showing the teacher that he was paying attention - that they were two different things, and he needed to do both. We went over some examples of exactly what would show her, and it really helped.

 

[Wishing on a star]

You don't know that. Sometimes kids are buttheads for no underlying reason.

Me again,
Just wanted to say that I continue to stand completely behind my post.
This has nothing to do with whether the kid might, or might not be, a bit of a butthead.

It has everything to do with the approaches and comments made by the OP.

Everything that she has described ( the handwriting, the inattentive, etc...) points to possible neurological difficulties.
ADD, Visual Spatial issues, or possible Auditory Processing issues... which would not be that he is 'not listening'... It is that the brain is not comprehending and processing the auditory information properly, etc.... etc.... etc....

Making derogatory and judgmental statements.... (qualified by 'his brother is a complete and wonderful A+ Angel.')
And, having a child who has difficulty with handwriting to write something hundreds of times...
Are nowhere near an appropriate approach.

No justification can be made at all here.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Do you know why not? It seems to me like a person either has the ability to pay attention, or they don't - but I've heard this before (when I wasn't able to ask questions about it) and wondered.

Cornflake is correct....
It can be called hyper-focusing as a way to deal with the ADD.

 

[shortbun]

Yeah I think your taking that comment wrong. I mean that we have one kid who is good at school. So the staff knows that we are not just unattentive parents who do not care about our kid. Let's be honest here, a lot of the kids who act out at school do not have the best home life. It's a fact.

As someone who knows lots of 'staff', you are really worrying way to much about that. If the 'staff' knew how you were reacting about their notes sent home...they'd probably make other judgements about you and stop sending notes to protect your son. I've seen that happen on several occasions. Just had dinner with my teacher friends last night and this topic came up again. I never hear names of kids or parents; they are professional in that way but the lamenting of a child who gets in too much trouble is a big issue. Back off and work with the teacher. Call them, go in and talk, ask about what she/he wants you to do to back her up. You have a fun loving, immature child. Perhaps he needs some one on one help-teacher type. Is he young? 100 times writing anything for a kid who can't write is torture. Ten might have worked and IF your measures had not been so severe, he would not have had to lie to protect himself. I know I'm being harsh but why not sit down and write " I will pay attention in class' 100 times and tell me how much-as an adult who can write well-you liked it!
Sorry, I'm a little frustrated here and probably need to leave this thread.
Good luck. I hope you can get peaceful about this.

 

[OceanAnnie]

This is old school, but some of it sounds like it can be managed by the teacher by being more pro-active. Teachers tend to have those that need attention closer at hand. Your child could've been first or very near the front of the line. Often times attention seekers sit near the teacher too. It helps for the child to be in the direct field of vision most times for the teacher and it diminishes the audience.

How are your DS's grades? Have you asked him how it feels to be singled out for disruptive behavior? Why he does it? Maybe ask him what are some other things he could instead of the offending behavior. Would the teacher have minded if he doodled on his own paper while listening to the instructions? Was her annoyance because he drew on the assignment page?

The defiance in general is concerning. That would be priority number one.

ETA- I would talk it out. I'd even ask for what his ideas of what punishment he should receive. I'd also ask him what would help him stay on task at school. Sometimes kids can surprise you with their answers and candor.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Do you know why not? It seems to me like a person either has the ability to pay attention, or they don't - but I've heard this before (when I wasn't able to ask questions about it) and wondered.

Back to the OP - Does your DS ever claim that he was paying attention? When mine was having some trouble last year, I explained to him that there was paying attention, but also showing the teacher that he was paying attention - that they were two different things, and he needed to do both. We went over some examples of exactly what would show her, and it really helped.

Cornflake is correct....
It can be called hyper-focusing as a way to deal with the ADD.

Yep--

Think of this--they get distracted. Distracted by what--well, something that was much more interesting...

Rememeber Doug the Dog in Up....

I Can talk. Will you be my friend. blah blah blah. SQUIRREL!!!

ADHD kids notice all the "squirrels!"

 

[hambirg]

I've been working with special needs kids for 10 years and have one of my own. I'm not saying your child has special needs (although an evaluation for possible ADHD or a processing disorder is a good idea), but a lot of the techniques I've learned can be used for any child.

First, scrap all of the punishment. Don't make him write lines. Don't make him sit in his room all weekend. Don't take away his video games. This will only breed resentment and it doesn't seem to be working anyway. It may be that he truly doesn't know what you expect or has no idea where to start. When you say, "Go clean your room," it may sound like a huge, daunting task that he has no idea how to start. It's easier to ignore your request. Getting him started will take a more hands-on parenting approach. Tell him he's going to clean his room at 2:00 p.m. Give him a few warnings (10 more minutes....5 more minutes) so he knows whatever he's currently doing is going to end. At 2:00 p.m., walk him to his room. Tell him the first thing you want him to do (like stacking books on the shelf or putting clothes in the hamper). Stay nearby, but don't hover. Tell him to come to you when he's done, then give him the next task. After he's done and his room is clean, give him a small reward. Let him know that rewards can come at any time when you catch him doing something well.

This technique goes likewise for homework. Rather than, "Go do your homework," sit down with him, look at what he needs to do and help him go through it one task at a time. It sounds like his executive functioning skills need more development (he is only 8, afterall) and he needs you to help him get organized (not just his work, but his brain).

Above all, don't yell. If he yells, don't yell back. You need to maintain control of every situation. I hope it works out for you!

This is wise advice.

I would add in using the timer like a PP suggested. But puhleeeze scrap these types of punishments you are using. They aren't working. . .and are teaching him to be deceptive. That will work against you in the long run.

Do have him tested to be sure he isn't dealing with any issues beyond his control. And then sit down and talk with him. You really need to get to the bottom of why this is happening. Reassure him that you are his parent and love him unconditionally. Remember what it was like bringing him home from the hospital and just how much you love him. Gosh, he's only 8yrs old. Imagine what it must feel like to struggle with school and then come home and be punished too. What he needs to feel is that you are going to help him. Make this about being partners in helping him succeed. . .not about everyone is the enemy to him and going to punish him as he struggles. That one shift can make a huge difference.

This is JMHO and I've worked with kids for years, and have been through similar struggles with my own son. This works, where trying to punish a child into submission backfires. Let him feel that your are a team and are going to get through this together, then. . .positive, positive, positive!

 

[Tink888]

OP, I totally understand everything that you are saying. Could've written your post. I have two boys also. My youngest has always been a listener and compliant. My oldest is the strong-willed, defiant one and the first few years of school were such a headache. I understand the comment about having the "wonderful student" as opposed to the "rule-breaker". You worry because you don't want the school to think that you tolerate the behavior, you're trying everything to change it. Doesn't mean you love one less than the other, or treat one worse than the other, you're just frustrated.

Is your son young for his class? DS16 was, and a lot of his issues, I think, stemmed from a lack of maturity. He is, and always will be, a strong-willed, good time kind of kid. That's just his personality. And really, it's not a bad way to be. By the end of third grade, he matured a lot and his behavior issues in class solved themselves.

Before that, like you, I worried constantly, I was always on him, there was always a punishment to reinforce what happened at school and life in general, for all of us, was miserable.

Some of the best advice that I ever received was from his 2nd grade teacher. He was a man with 30 years of teaching behind him and he told me essentially to back off a little. If something happened in class, and he was punished in class. That was the end of it. Now granted, something really major we also punished at home but the majority were little things. DS16 knew, and the teachers knew that we didn't tolerate the behavior, we stood behind the teacher and we supported whatever consequences he was given. We talked about it. We talked about why it's important to behave. How it felt to be the one singled out for bad behavior, how other kids may think the class clown is funny for a awhile but after a while, it isn't so funny anymore, it's just annoying. And he felt the consequences of that. He started to behave, because kids more than anything, want to fit in.

You mentioned academics but only referenced handwriting and spelling. Does he struggle with other subjects? With spelling, I've always been told you either have it or you don't. I never worried much about handwriting. Some of the most intelligent people I've know have had horrible handwriting.

If you think there may be an underlying issue and want to have him tested, by all means do. It certainly can't hurt. But I would say just to relax a little (easier said than done, especially when you're in the thick of it). You don't have to be perfect, neither does he. Reinforce the good behaviors and give it some time. Unless you see the behavior getting worse over time, he will more than likely grow out of it.

That's just been my experience. DS is 16 now, still strong-willed and not always the most motivated kid but he does well in school and I have rarely over the years gotten a call about behavior. It does get better.

 

[5lilfish]

Oh I would be lying if I said I didn't think he was being a butthead at times. No offense taken but what I do take offense to is people who think its so ludicrous that I would describe my son as lazy. Seriously, whats the big deal??? I do not sugar coat anything nor do I want to make excuses. He is definitely not a fan of school or rules. Never has been. He could spend hours constructing Lego creations or playing on the computer or video games so I know he can focus. He is also VERY social and has a ton of friends. So do I punish him at home for the issues the teachers are having with him in class or let them deal with it? That is what I am struggling with. I do admit that I can be VERY strict sometimes and more of it is worrying what they will think of him. I think a little counseling for the both of is is not a bad idea. I just want harmony for all of us

My son, who has ADHD, can play video games for hours (he is amazing at them) and has always been able to construct huge Lego kits that were meant for kids many years older than he was. As for WHY: Well, for starters...video games are constantly moving/changing images on a screen. They actually feed into ADHD because they do not require you to focus on one thing for more than a second. I'm not exactly sure with Legos.....although even they have 1 million tiny steps.

I'm really not saying it is ADHD. There are just little things that you have said that remind me of my son. Normal kids act up....I'd just hate to see a kid suffer if they are having trouble. It doesn't hurt to rule things out if you are really concerned.

Jess

 

[lizanne]

I told him if he gets a note sent home he will have to write "I will listen at school." 100 times on paper. If he gets another note it will be 200 times. He got the first note and wrote 100 times. Got a second note sent home and he hid it from me, forged my signature (lol he actually thought the teacher wouldn't notice the handwriting). When confronted why he hid the note he sadi he did not want to write. So getting him to write it was impossible so that's why i stripped his room of anything fun and have told him he needs to stay in there all weekend because of getting a second note, hiding it, forging my name on it, and not doing the writing. He still keeps trying to get out of his punishment making the whole house miserable. Here are some examples of not listening at school.
Told 2 times to line up from recess and ignored the teacher. Was asked to be quiet in line and continued to make silly noises. Chose to draw cartoons while he was being given directions on an assignment. Those were all on the last note I got from the teacher. He wants to be a clown and make the kids laugh so thats why he does silly things. His maturity level is that of a 2nd grader not a 3rd grader and that is what the teacher has told me. His academics are also very poor, horrific handwriting, spelling, etc. There are Kindergarteners that write and spell better than him. This is so hard for us to deal with because we have an older ds who is a straight A student who is very well behaved at school. Thank God it is not a reflection of us because we do have one good kid. Completely different personalities.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way but I believe you should not be comparing him to his brother and certainly not worried about how this reflects on your parenting. Have you talked to him and asked what's wrong or if something is bothering him, or do you just threaten and punish.

I also don't think keeping him in his room all weekend is productive. Give him something to do to keep him occupied and I don't mean reading a book. Give him a chore around the house to complete.

Believe me, I'm not condeming you. I'm sure your at your wits end. If need be professional counseling could be helpful.

See if he'll talk to you. Let him know that you love him and don't understand why he's acting this way and you're concerned. If he won't open up you'll have to let him know that bad behavior warrants punishment. Try not to threaten, just be firm.

Good Luck

 

[lukenick1]

OP, I totally understand everything that you are saying. Could've written your post. I have two boys also. My youngest has always been a listener and compliant. My oldest is the strong-willed, defiant one and the first few years of school were such a headache. I understand the comment about having the "wonderful student" as opposed to the "rule-breaker". You worry because you don't want the school to think that you tolerate the behavior, you're trying everything to change it. Doesn't mean you love one less than the other, or treat one worse than the other, you're just frustrated.
Thank you, I'm glad you understand.
Is your son young for his class? DS16 was, and a lot of his issues, I think, stemmed from a lack of maturity. He is, and always will be, a strong-willed, good time kind of kid.
Yes that is exactly him with a little bit of immaturity.

That's just his personality. And really, it's not a bad way to be. By the end of third grade, he matured a lot and his behavior issues in class solved themselves.
So glad to hear it can get better.
Before that, like you, I worried constantly, I was always on him, there was always a punishment to reinforce what happened at school and life in general, for all of us, was miserable.
We are definitely miserable and feel like we are at the end of our rope.

Some of the best advice that I ever received was from his 2nd grade teacher. He was a man with 30 years of teaching behind him and he told me essentially to back off a little.

You mentioned academics but only referenced handwriting and spelling. Does he struggle with other subjects? With spelling, I've always been told you either have it or you don't. I never worried much about handwriting. Some of the most intelligent people I've know have had horrible handwriting.

His handwriting is just so jumbled together. He never spaces his word so his sentences are one long line of letters. I've tried working with him in 1st and 2nd grade and he is still doing it in 3rd.

If you think there may be an underlying issue and want to have him tested, by all means do. It certainly can't hurt.

I really don't think so but I will talk to the teacher about it.
That's just been my experience. DS is 16 now, still strong-willed and not always the most motivated kid but he does well in school and I have rarely over the years gotten a call about behavior. It does get better.

Thank God!

k God!

 

[lukenick1]

I've been working with special needs kids for 10 years and have one of my own. I'm not saying your child has special needs (although an evaluation for possible ADHD or a processing disorder is a good idea), but a lot of the techniques I've learned can be used for any child.

First, scrap all of the punishment. Don't make him write lines. Don't make him sit in his room all weekend. Don't take away his video games. This will only breed resentment and it doesn't seem to be working anyway. It may be that he truly doesn't know what you expect or has no idea where to start. When you say, "Go clean your room," it may sound like a huge, daunting task that he has no idea how to start. It's easier to ignore your request. Getting him started will take a more hands-on parenting approach. Tell him he's going to clean his room at 2:00 p.m. Give him a few warnings (10 more minutes....5 more minutes) so he knows whatever he's currently doing is going to end. At 2:00 p.m., walk him to his room. Tell him the first thing you want him to do (like stacking books on the shelf or putting clothes in the hamper). Stay nearby, but don't hover. Tell him to come to you when he's done, then give him the next task. After he's done and his room is clean, give him a small reward. Let him know that rewards can come at any time when you catch him doing something well.

This technique goes likewise for homework. Rather than, "Go do your homework," sit down with him, look at what he needs to do and help him go through it one task at a time. It sounds like his executive functioning skills need more development (he is only 8, afterall) and he needs you to help him get organized (not just his work, but his brain).

Above all, don't yell. If he yells, don't yell back. You need to maintain control of every situation. I hope it works out for you!

Thank you, very good advice for me. I appreciate it

 

[fimac]

Handwriting which is jumbled together with no spaces can be a sign of dysgraphia.

Dysgraphia means difficulty with handwriting. There are several different kinds of dysgraphia. Some people with dysgraphia have handwriting that is illegible and shows irregular and inconsistent letter formations. Others write legibly, but very slowly, or very small. When these individuals revert to printing, as they often do, their writing is often a random mixture of upper and lower case letters. In all cases of dysgraphia, writing requires inordinate amounts of energy, stamina and time.

It would be worth looking into this disability. Does he do better typing than writing.

 

[badblackpug]

LOl OP, I got absolutely torn up on the boards one time for saying that my daughter was lazy. ...and she was. She went through a phase in the 4th-5th grade where we could just could not get her to do her work. She would either not complete her class work and then have to stay in at recess to finish it, or would rush through it half-a$$ing it to just get it done. She has no learning disability, she was going through a phase. We simply put our foot down. Every day that she lost recess or didn't complete assignments she would also lose her TV/game time for that night. She wasn't disruptive or defiant, just basically couldn't be bothered LOL.

As for comparing the kids.... my son (in the 5th grade) is the type of kid who gets straight A's with no effort. My daughter (9th grade) gets A's and B's but works hard for it.

Just because I/we are here on the boards saying "child A is lazy" or "child B gets such and such grade and child C gets such and such grades" does not mean we are saying this to our children. We are on here giving a comparison.

I understand where you are coming from OP. My daughter is young for her grade (August bday) maybe it was a maturity issue. ...and I understand you giving your other son as an example, particularly if he is older, it you are really illustrating that you have no point of reference.

 

[MrsPete]

First, I agree with much of what's already been said:

1. Test the boy's hearing.
2. Rule out other medical issues.
3. Take care to be very consistant in your discipline.
4. Give him positive attention.

If those things don't help, here's another consideration: We all have strengths and weaknesses in the ways we communicate. A majority of us are visual learners. Others are auditory learners, others are kinistetic learners. In theory, we should be balanced and able to learn in any way -- an auditory learner CAN take in information visually, though he may not grasp it as quickly or as thoroughly . . . but some people are very, very weak in some ways.

Examples are always better . . .

When we were teenagers my mom was constantly frustrated with one of my brothers -- in the mornings, she'd give us all instructions about what we were to do after school, and that one brother'd NEVER do what he was told. She'd come home from work, four of us'd have done our chores . . . that one brother'd have done nothing. He'd be repentant, but he'd often claim that he had no memory of her giving him instructions -- and he'd be indignant about it. I specifically remember when my mom realized that he was physically hearing the words, but he wasn't processing them through his brain in the same way that other people do. No, before you ask, he has no problems with his hearing.

My mom came up with two methods of dealing with him: 1) She'd often write down what she wanted him to do. 2) She'd have him repeat back what he was to do. His compliance increased astronomically. He wasn't unwilling to do what he was told. He just is very, very weak with taking in information in an auditory manner. Couple that with being told before school what he was to do after school -- he just couldn't do it, and -- being a teen -- he didn't bother to figure out a way to solve his own problem. He doesn't like to hear (poorly phrased, but I don't have another wording), so he'd just let it wash over him and he'd ignore it.

I'm a little like that -- though not nearly so much as my brother. Tell me something, and I'm likely to forget it. And if I'm really focused on something I'm reading or something I'm watching on TV, I genuinely won't hear you speaking to me. You might have to raise your voice or call my name more than once to get my attention. I'm very good at ignoring conversations that don't include me. But let me SEE something or READ IT, and I'll know it forever.

I'll give an example of him as an adult: He was diagnosed with diabetes, and he went to a diabetic nutrition class to learn how to eat properly. He got nothing from it. He bought a book, and it made sense to him. He instantly began better habits and is doing well following his diet.

 

[lukenick1]

I am completely overwhelmed and grateful to all that took some time out of their day to offer me some advice. Thank you! I am beginning to realize that I am being too hard on him. I think I will cut him some slack and just remind him that it makes me sad when he brings those notes home. As far as his academics, I will set up a conference with his teacher just to make sure he is where he should be. Being a parent is the hardest job ever, and I wish I had an owners manual. I just want to have kids that are healthy, happy and respectful. Not much to ask for, or is it?

 

[lukenick1]

As for comparing the kids.... my son (in the 5th grade) is the type of kid who gets straight A's with no effort. My daughter (9th grade) gets A's and B's but works hard for it.

Just because I/we are here on the boards saying "child A is lazy" or "child B gets such and such grade and child C gets such and such grades" does not mean we are saying this to our children. We are on here giving a comparison.

.

 

[Liberty Belle]

I told him if he gets a note sent home he will have to write "I will listen at school." 100 times on paper. If he gets another note it will be 200 times. He got the first note and wrote 100 times. Got a second note sent home and he hid it from me, forged my signature (lol he actually thought the teacher wouldn't notice the handwriting). When confronted why he hid the note he sadi he did not want to write. So getting him to write it was impossible so that's why i stripped his room of anything fun and have told him he needs to stay in there all weekend because of getting a second note, hiding it, forging my name on it, and not doing the writing. He still keeps trying to get out of his punishment making the whole house miserable. Here are some examples of not listening at school.
Told 2 times to line up from recess and ignored the teacher. Was asked to be quiet in line and continued to make silly noises. Chose to draw cartoons while he was being given directions on an assignment. Those were all on the last note I got from the teacher. He wants to be a clown and make the kids laugh so thats why he does silly things. His maturity level is that of a 2nd grader not a 3rd grader and that is what the teacher has told me. His academics are also very poor, horrific handwriting, spelling, etc. There are Kindergarteners that write and spell better than him. This is so hard for us to deal with because we have an older ds who is a straight A student who is very well behaved at school. Thank God it is not a reflection of us because we do have one good kid. Completely different personalities.

There are a lot of red flags for ADHD in what you wrote. I'd talk to his doctor about having him tested.