Direct CCV purchase vs resale

[Madame]

But I personally think any new buyer and especially a family (with kids as they need to travel during busy times because of school) who spends $30K plus on an resale SSR contract will be very disappointed when they could have spent a little more and get the 11 month window and all the benefits.

As someone who’s been tied to a school schedule for 15 years & will remain so for the next 15, I don’t think you’ve thought this point through.

Summer, Christmas & Easter breaks take massive amounts of points. We could not have even afforded the 470 we bought resale (& really 470 is not enough to go twice a year for our family of five) if we’d been looking at direct. Some have fall breaks, but not all.

Many have spring break & summer break & it is much easier to switch out at 7 months, but only if you have the points.

Lastly. If you have to travel Xmas or Easter you can’t even use the best direct perk - the gold pass - because it’s blacked out...

 

[disneynutz]

I'm actually quite curious about this part as well.

I'm well aware that Disney spells out in the contract that all perks are incidental and they can be taken away at any time. I'm sure that's to cover them in case the worst ever happens. But as a new owner, I've been trying to see what's been taken away over the years, since everyone talks about resenting losing benefits over the years. As best as I can tell, they took away park tickets - definitely a big one. They also took away valet parking. But they added free WiFi before they rolled it out to the rest of the resorts, and they added the discounted gold pass recently. They've also added more events like Moonlight Magic this year than there were previously. Yes, they did increase the direct minimum to 75 points to qualify for perks, but they gave some time in between announcing and enforcing to allow people the chance to buy 25 direct to still qualify.

I'm certain I'm still just not seeing the forest for the trees. What other significant perks have been stripped away over the years? Or is it more the very clear terms that they can take them away at any time, and the expectation that they will?

It's important that readers realize that the perks are a show put on buy DVD/DVC to make more money and make more direct sales. The current DVD/DVC management uses them to penalize resale buyers and most are the brain child of the current SVP. When we see the list of perks, they are designed to be impressive but really look at the list and most will find that because of when they purchased resale, they are excluded from most of them. In addition the people who are included probably will never use most of the perks or you need to spend money to use them. If and when the SVP moves on, will the next keep the same perks or come up with their own?

Bill

 

[4luv2cdisney]

You can break your direct purchase into two or more contracts, pay them separate giving your line of credit time to be paid down. I also think that you can partially pay and pay off your line of credit between charges. If I remember correctly the Chase zero interest deal has a purchase limit plus you can not use the card until the zero interest charge is paid off or they apply the interest.

Bill

I don't know if there is a limit, but just for anyone else reading, you can use your card as normal while the zero interest charges are on there. They are separated out and you can see every month how much your balance for that portion is and how long you have left. I do pay my regular cc balances in full each month, so I don't exactly know how / if that affects anything, but basically, I paid my regular monthly charges in full as usual and the DVC purchase sat on there and I could pay as little as 0 on it monthly and as long as it is paid by the final due date, I was charged no interest.

You do have to watch your total credit limit though. My DVC purch was only 10K and my limit is around 40K, so even with monthly expenses being charged as usual I was not nearing my limit. Personally, I don't like to ever exceed 50% of my limit.

 

[4luv2cdisney]

When it comes down to it, this is really all that matters. The other calculations are largely justifications of a means to an end.

For example, the argument could be made that by putting the purchase on your Disney Visa for “only 2%,” you’re effectively paying MORE than you would by putting the purchase on a charge card with a higher rewards return. Additionally, the “savings” on 0% finance rate assumes that one would finance at all. This also assumes Disney has extended one a $5X,0000 credit limit which seems really high.

Again none of this matters if CCV is your resort of choice. I would argue buying Aulani would be the best dollar spent if one loves being in Hawaii and wants to be there any time of year.

But to argue that CCV is more cost effective than buying SSR resale would necessitate a high degree of creative math and assume a worst case scenario (paying 2017 dues) on the resale side.

I thought the credit card earnings and interest savings was comparing resale to direct since you can't charge your resale purchase. So, keeping your 50K invested for 6 more months and getting the rewards (at whatever percentages that pertain to what cards you have and how your $ is invested).

I would like to know if there is a limit on the 2% rewards / 0% offer though (just curious). As for entire credit limit, I have had a limit on my Chase Disney card of around 40K since inception. I have no doubt they'd raise my limit if asked. I also have similar on a Chase Southwest, so I assume they could lower the Southwest and increase the Disney if they didn't want to extend additional credit. Either way, I've got a lot more than 50K limit through my Chase cards alone.

 

[kboo]

With regards to the 2017 dues. I agree you would need to pay 2017 dues on a resale, but its unlikely you would get 2017 points on a resale without paying a premium. Adding benefit from not paying 2017 or 2018 dues was a way I quantified getting those points as part of the contract but not having to pay dues on them. This was an “assumption” that may or may not be an accurate way of quantifying those points. However, getting 1 1/2 of points with no dues is definitely a bonus compared to resale’s that will put a premium on contracts that have those extra points. The question is “how would you value an extra 450 points without having to pay dues?” $3,267 (the dues amount) doesn’t seen too unreasonable. But maybe I’m wrong. Dunno

Generally, if buying a resale contract with 2017 points, or a stripped contract, you only pay prorated dues on the points you are buying, and sometimes with loaded contracts and in other circumstances, the seller will pay the dues. So I am not sure that is an accurate comparison across the board. What *does* tick me off, however, is when they sell you "2107 points" for a UY that hasn't happened yet (e.g. August UY) and make it sound like you are getting "double" or "last year's" points. No, they are selling you what you would be entitled to, because you are still in your Aug 2017 UY.

If you are an “existing owner” and receiving benefits, buying additional points directly for any other resort doesn’t make a lot of sense and you should do resale. There is an argument to be made that buying points at CCV with all of the discounts can be at least competitive to some of the other resorts with a few exceptions and can reap other benefits (pick use year and reasonably in demand resort at 11 months at CCV vs SSR)

Agreed ... to a point. As you saw, though, the biggest discounts are if you buy a big chunk of points. Most people buy in at less than 200 points, which makes the $pp closer to $176 with discounts.

IF you are a new buyer (no membership), unless you dislike CCV or have your heart set on another property, it doesn’t seem like there is enough savings on the resale market to stray from direct sales

See above - our first contract was at 160 points (we are working our way up to 485 points soon). If buying 150 points at CCV, that brings the cost per point to $172. VGF is probably the most expensive WDW resale property out there right now, and while some of them list around $170 and up, if you take a look at the ROFR board, you'll see that they actually sell at quite a bit lower.

That’s just my 2 cents. However, I also think the resale market is overblowing savings and the value proposition to “new buyers”.

Eh... Although the prices have gone way up in the last 12 months, there is actually still overlap in the sales prices in resale contracts between last year and now. Meaning, for example, when I bought BLT resale 14 months ago - most sales on the ROFR board ranged from $100pp (very few) - $120pp. Now, $120pp would be a good deal, but not impossible here, just hard to find.

As another example - even at the higher point levels we are talking about, and not even including my current contract in ROFR - we have a total of 385 points for about $48,500. (I am grandfathered in with the perks at 25 points direct, but let's even set that aside for now - if all 385 points had been resale, I would have paid about $46,600) Either way, it comes out to $121-$125 per point.

So comparing 385 points resale split almost evenly at BLT/VGF v. 385 direct from CCV:

For that $ (even ignoring the direct "perks"), I have 11 mo advantage at BLT and VGF, 2 resorts that regularly book up well before the 7 mo window.

385 points at CCV = ($182 x 385) - $6500 = $63,570
385 points at BLT/VGF = ($121 x 385) = $46,585
= $16,985 savings up front

Annual dues: CCV ($2795) v BLT/VGF ($2321) = $474 savings in MFs per year

VGF studios can sleep 5 and have a split bath. BLT 1BR can sleep 5 and have 2 full baths. VGF 1br can sleep 5 and have a split bath. As for the resort itself, it really depends on personal preference. For us, since we have small kids and will have strollers and midday naps for a while, much as we like CCV/BRV, relying only on boats or buses for transportation kind of killed it for us. If we find we like to go to WDW around the winter holidays and want to be at CCV every winter holiday, we may look for a smaller contract that would allow us to be in a 1BR every other year.

(This is not even considering whether there is a long wait list for BLT and whether there is a wait list at all for VGF)

Even if you strip away every discount (you debated) except the developer credit, make an allowance for 8 less years, the gap is not that great. And SSR is considered the BEST value play which means other resorts have much less a gap or negative gap.

See above. The average prices on many of those charts breaking down the value of the other resorts use something like average asking price. I got very good prices for our BLT and VGF contracts, but they weren't crazy outliers or anything. With some waiting for the right contract and seller, the price I paid for our VGF contract last fall is still achievable now. The BLT contract, not so much...

 

[kboo]

When we see the list of perks, they are designed to be impressive but really look at the list and most will find that because of when they purchased resale, they are excluded from most of them. In addition the people who are included probably will never use most of the perks or you need to spend money to use them.

Agreed. We got 25 points direct and are grandfathered in, and the perks are ... Last year we got the best deal/perk/offer - which was the PAP+ (the one with water parks and no blockout dates) for the same price as gold. We bought 2 years worth for the 3 of us (DD2 is still free!) - We've "saved" about half of our direct purchase price (or broken even if comparing buying those 25 points resale v direct) because of that deal. Otherwise, though we have used none of the other perks, though SOMEDAY we may pay cash to take a member cruise. In 2020 (?). That is a great example of Disney getting you to spend more on the grounds of "saving" money - member cruises cost even more than their regular cruises, but they sell a less crowded ship and special events that you can't get on a "regular" cruise. So they are definitely selling this feeling of being a "member" in an elite club (of tens of thousands of other members you'll never meet anyway).

Lastly. If you have to travel Xmas or Easter you can’t even use the best direct perk - the gold pass - because it’s blacked out...

Yep - the only way we are making the direct perks work is from the PAP+ pass that doesn't have blockout dates, which we are using for 10 days over Easter next year. (shuddering at the added costs of everything else, and the crowds in the parks) And this is with a 25 point direct purchase. I couldn't justify it with a 75 point direct purchase.

 

[iheartglaciers]

That is a great example of Disney getting you to spend more on the grounds of "saving" money - member cruises cost even more than their regular cruises, but they sell a less crowded ship and special events that you can't get on a "regular" cruise. So they are definitely selling this feeling of being a "member" in an elite club (of tens of thousands of other members you'll never meet anyway).

I told my parents we should all go on a Members Cruise in the next year or so. They said, is that the country club cruise? haha. Is it actually less crowded than a regular DCL cruise?

 

[_auroraborealis_]

I told my parents we should all go on a Members Cruise in the next year or so. They said, is that the country club cruise? haha. Is it actually less crowded than a regular DCL cruise?

It's not less crowded. They fill every stateroom. You might "win" in that more staterooms might be couples, instead of families. Maybe.

 

[keaster]

I told my parents we should all go on a Members Cruise in the next year or so. They said, is that the country club cruise? haha. Is it actually less crowded than a regular DCL cruise?

I'd say it's not really less crowded because they seem to always sell out!

 

[disneynutz]

Member cruises are a great way for Disney to make money filling the older ships. Think about it, they have a ship that isn't booking like it should or is forecasted to not book like it should, during a date that may not be popular. They make it a member cruise, add some gifts and entertainment and the cruise sells out while being a great PR item for DVC marketing. What's really interesting is that DCL and DVC are run by Jeff Vahle. You would think that they would give DVC owners a discount, not charge them more.

Bill

 

[sky2823]

Kboo,

The incentives have changed this week so I think they aren’t as great.

But last week on 400 points ( I would assume you just add the extra 15 since the credit increases at that point) you would have received $10K vs the $6.5K for 300.

That would bring you down to $157 per point. Then you can have Disney break the contract anyway you want 4 X 100 or even 5 X 80 points.

You get the discount, then you can divide the contract up which creates additional value (something I learned from this board and think it is a fantastic strategy)

If you compare an 80 pt CCV contract fully loaded 2017/18/19 pts at $157 per point, it seems it would be lower than or at least pretty darn competitive with VGF or BLT based on the listings I am seeing.

Then if you factor in more years on the contract (CCV 4 more than VGF and 8 more than BLT) CCV would definitely be lower than both. In this example I am not adding in anything for the credit card.

I’m not debating which is the better resort mind you, just referring to the price per point savings. I can see the merits of both BLT and VGF and how they could be seen as better than CCV and a more valuable 11 month window

What I was trying to say earlier was that with all the incentives and flexibility DIsney is offering with Direct Buy contracts, the savings is not as extreme or in some cases not even existent compared to what the resale sites are saying.

 

[kboo]

ok, so let's compare 400 points using your new numbers, as compared to my combined BLT/VGF at $121 pp, $6.02pp MFs (based on the proportional mix of BLT/VGF that I happened to have):

CCV:
400 points x $157 pp = $ 60,800 initial outlay*
MFs: 400 x $7.06 = $2,904/year

BLT/VGF (my mix)
400 x $121 = $48,400
MFs: 400 x $6.02 = $2,408

CCV direct now costs $12,400 in upfront purchase price, plus $500/yr in MFs.

Yes, this is setting aside whether one likes BLT, CCV or VGF "best" - there is value to all of them for various reasons. But if we are assuming they are all equally highly desirable, that still is a big difference in initial outlay and in annual MFs. For someone who loves CCV and dislikes BLT or VGF, that may feel "worth" the extra outlay, but if someone likes all of them pretty much the same, then that additional cost becomes the "cost" of being a member of a club that doesn't actually get you that much. $500/yr is almost the cost of one Gold AP.

As I look at the numbers now, if I really wanted to stay at CCV over the holidays, I would try to rent from a CCV owner, and cover that cost by renting out my BLT or VGF points.

------------------
*I was not following the earlier discussion about credit limits and putting the purchase on a CC, but I'd also venture that once you are getting into $60k land, I'm not sure how much of that you'd be putting on a CC and how long it might take to pay it off.

 

[sky2823]

I can get VGF for $121 per point resale currently?

 

[gdrj]

Interesting, so I could have split the contract with DVC and bought 100 at a different resort and still got the discount. I wish I had known that. Thanks!

Good and bad depending on what your plans are. Having at 1 Resort gives you the opportunity bank and reserve 11 months out for larger rooms or longer stays.

 

[pavicich]

I can get VGF for $121 per point resale currently?

This.

You most likely cannot. Which gives merit to many of your points in my opinion. I appreciate the data you laid out and happen to agree with a lot of it.

We bought SSR direct at $80/pt, BLT direct at $94/pt. It has become increasingly difficult to stay where we want and when. We really like the lodge at Xmas so we bought in direct again. The extra $1/pt in annual dues is nominal compared to what everything else costs. It doesn’t even matter.

Comparing our original contract purchases to market price now isn’t a fair argument except it shows we were smart/lucky to buy in sooner than later. Not an option for all people-especially if they are new young professionals and are now just getting the opportunity.

Congrats on your purchase!

 

[kboo]

I can get VGF for $121 per point resale currently?

Ummmmm.... did you read my earlier post? I got BLT and VGF last year, and the blended rate (total $ paid divided by total # points) was approx $121.

But it is possible to get a 200 point VGF for around $135, and a larger contract for even less. So even if you assume $130 (which isn’t out of the question for a 400 point contract), it’s still a significant savings over direct. And I know we weren’t talking about relative merits of resorts, but VGF is DVCs flagship resort and retails for $220, as compared to CCV at $182 before developer credits.

If you really want to compare apples to apples, compare $135 v $220 per point.

 

[sky2823]

I’m probably not savvy enough in my search of the resale board to see VGF at 130. So if it is out there, then I am wrong. Most of what I see is around 160ish. I see some lowball prices on Fidelity, but my understanding from reading other parts of the board is they have a high rofr and its very difficult to even get through to them on a listing. Also, some of their “sold” transactions don’t have dates and show 2016 points so I assume they’ll are older. I’m not sure if Fidelity is a good comp or legit or not. Again, I have low experience on this front. But at least 2 of the other resale sights have 160+ on grand Floridian

The Timeshare Store 2 listed at around 160, dvcresalemarket have several from 159 to over 180. None of which are as high as 400 pts so admittedly they would be discounted as well and the a buyers bid price could would be lower.

But I was also comparing to smaller contracts that you can achieve via direct sales

I wasn’t looking at 400 pt contracts which seem to be discounted as they are not as in demand.

Disney Direct allows you to break the contract up and have smaller contracts under the same membership number and same use year, but give you the discount on the aggregate amount so as to have the best of both worlds. (CREDIT TO DISBOARDS FOR THIS STRATEGY)

So in my analysis I was comparing 4 or 5 smaller contracts (Loaded with full 2017/18/19) bought direct (aggregate 400) at CCV at about $157 per share vs 4 smaller contracts (loaded as well) bought resale at VGF (aggregate 400).

I still see CCV and VGF being very competitive price wise at that point. Then when you factor in 4 years less on the VGF contract I think CCV would go below VGF ( not including any extras from the Disney Visa) in cost.

The point being, the savings are not really what they are being made out to be by the resale sites as well as not what the used to be...

Now the value question is in the eye of the beholder as everyone has been discussing. But the the actually price savings is escaping me when you take advantage of the contract flexibility and discounts offered by DVC

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I’m probably not savvy enough in my search of the resale board to see VGF at 130. So if it is out there, then I am wrong. Most of what I see is around 160ish. I see some lowball prices on Fidelity, but my understanding from reading other parts of the board is they have a high rofr and its very difficult to even get

400 points is not an average purchase - 150-160 points is and a better example to attempt to argue for direct vs resale. But large point resale will be lower than the prices you are quoting, VGF is not highly ROFR'd and SSR ownership can work just fine for booking elsewhere depending one when one wants to visit and the villa size normally expected to be reserved.

FWIW - bought first resale 10 years ago, last one 2 months ago, and have also bought direct. There are nuances to DVC purchases that make blanket statements difficult to apply and support and much of what you are using for basis that you've read is not my experience. CCV is best bought direct if that is where one wants to own. Large points for general DVC ownership? I will make the blanket statement that resale is the way to go. If buying a "trader" CCV wouldn't be a consideration IMO because of the maintenance fees there which will be the most expensive part over the years of ownership. I'd get SSR for $90-$93 and it's lower fees. Or BLT. CCV if I wanted to almost always stay there? I'd buy there direct. That is the general rule for any new resort just opened by DVC and often the general rule for small point purchases but depends on direct point availability and then comparison to direct price vs what can find resale.

 

[kboo]

You can see reported sale prices on the rofr boards by quarter. Each quarter that VGF has been selling resale, there has been at least 1 VGF contract that passes around $135 or even less. Yes there are people who pay more but $135 is achievable.

I am currently waiting on a 100 point contract at 150$, which is ok but not amazing (just saw a 150 point contract list at $149 recently, but it was not my UY and was a little bigger than I wanted). If that one doesn’t pass I’m happy to wait as well. And it would still be faster than getting on a WL for VGF direct.

(And again, comparing VGF resale and CCV direct isn’t exactly apples to apples as VGF direct is $220/pt).

All of that said, I do agree that if one wants CCV, direct is as good or better a deal when comparing CCV direct v CCV resale. If I were looking to buy at CCV now, that is what’s I would do. I would have said the same thing last year for Poly.

 

[kboo]

Kboo,

The incentives have changed this week so I think they aren’t as great.

But last week on 400 points ( I would assume you just add the extra 15 since the credit increases at that point) you would have received $10K vs the $6.5K for 300.

That would bring you down to $157 per point. Then you can have Disney break the contract anyway you want 4 X 100 or even 5 X 80 points.

You get the discount, then you can divide the contract up which creates additional value (something I learned from this board and think it is a fantastic strategy)

If you compare an 80 pt CCV contract fully loaded 2017/18/19 pts at $157 per point, it seems it would be lower than or at least pretty darn competitive with VGF or BLT based on the listings I am seeing.

Then if you factor in more years on the contract (CCV 4 more than VGF and 8 more than BLT) CCV would definitely be lower than both. In this example I am not adding in anything for the credit card.

I’m not debating which is the better resort mind you, just referring to the price per point savings. I can see the merits of both BLT and VGF and how they could be seen as better than CCV and a more valuable 11 month window

What I was trying to say earlier was that with all the incentives and flexibility DIsney is offering with Direct Buy contracts, the savings is not as extreme or in some cases not even existent compared to what the resale sites are saying.

OP - an SSR contract just passed at $95 - with 108 2016 points banked into 2017, and 2017 points banked into 2018. More loaded than one could get from Disney direct. Your thoughts?