Dining Plan - Some thoughts and important HEADS UP!!

[reedycreek]

Just got back from 3 nights at BWV with DVC, and 3 nights at CSR. Did the dining plan for the first time, since we could get it at BWV under the DVC. Absolutely fell in love with this dining plan! We must have ate over $450-500 worth of food for $230. Got to eat at Chefs de France, Concourse Steakhouse, and Maya Grille (CSR), and didnt once worry about the prices of the food on the menu. CS options were great too, we were always full.

One problem I did encounter that I would like others to be aware of (not sure if this has been brought up before). We used our last TS meal at Maya Grill. Ordered about $100 worth of food - 2 apps, 2 expensive entrees, and 2 desserts. I looked at the bill, as they usually give you a breakdown of what you spent. I noticed that we were "charged" $25 flat for each of us, which amounted to $50 worth of food. The waiters tip was then calculated at 18% of the $50, which was roughly $9. Of course, we didnt pay anything for the meal, but I noticed that DIsney was only giving the waiting $9 when he realyl should have been getting at least a $18 tip. I asked the waiter why our food wasnt itemized and why he wasnt tipped accordingly. He said, "I cannot comment on the matter, and please dont discuss this with my manager." He also mentioned that business was slow and this was their way of making up for it. So I guess this hotel/restaurant feels it is ok to take hard earned gratiuities from their wait staff to make up for lost revenue under the Dining Plan. I was enraged by the fact that Disney would do this, and made up the difference in the tip with my own cash.

Anyone know who at Disney would like to receive an angry letter from me regarding this practice????

 

[Hound 109]

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I don't remember this happening to us when we were on the DDP 6 months ago.

Also, good for you that you caught this. And that (out of your pocket) the waiter received the tip he DESERVED.

hound

 

[balletomane]

This is what I've been wondering about. Is the Maya Grill a Disney-owned restaurant?

 

[bicker]

Maya Grill is not owned by Disney. None of the Disney-owned restaurants do this.

Other non-Disney-owned table-service restaurants that participate on the Dining Plan include Chefs de France, Alfredos, San Angel Inn (same owners as Maya Grill, incidently), Raglan Road, and Wolfgang Puck.

Again, Disney does not do this. Only the non-Disney restaurants do.

 

[reedycreek]

Maya Grill is not owned by Disney. None of the Disney-owned restaurants do this.

Other non-Disney-owned table-service restaurants that participate on the Dining Plan include Chefs de France, Alfredos, San Angel Inn (same owners as Maya Grill, incidently), Raglan Road, and Wolfgang Puck.

Again, Disney does not do this. Only the non-Disney restaurants do.

Thanks Bicker for that info. I had no idea that some restaurants were not owned by Disney. Never crossed my mind. I assume they just lease the space in the hotel then and pay royalties to Disney?

I was baffled that Disney would do something like this, and it certainly make me feel better that they are not a part of it. Do you still think it is worth bringing to Disney's attention?

 

[bicker]

Disney should not get in between an employer and its employees. It is worth bringing to the attention of the specific restaurants -- especially if you decide not to patronize them because of this practice. (I'd not assume, by the way, that they engage in this practice, but would approach them with the question, first, and then provide them feedback based on their answer, presumably to the affirmative.) If you decide to patronize them anyway, then clearly the issue isn't important enough to you to sway your purchasing decision (which is all the restaurant really cares about in the end).

 

[Amyrlin]

I suppose the idea is that the servers are getting 18% of a lower bill rather than 18% of nothing if the diner eat elsewhere, as if the guest had eaten less I suppose,but I agree it is not fair.

If I go to a non Disney resturant I make sure I knock the tip up to the right level.
I think you can also add PLanet HOlywood to the list on non disney owned restruants that participate.

 

[ehagerty]

Waitress we had in June mentioned that they get a flat $5 per person in tip. She said she was VERY happy with the arrangement, because that was more than she gets from most tables. In other words, most tables do not order the quantity of food people on the DDP do, so the meal price isn't high enough per person to get a "$5 per person tip". She basically suggested that she generally does the same amount of work for a DDP table as a non-DDP table - and, on average, gets a better tip.

Part of the reason that we had this level of discussion, is that both spouse and I worked as waiters back in the day, so we tend to ask about what it is like to work in each restaurant we eat in. I don't suggest that people should work for less than their value, but having waited on people from other countries (with other customs) - which is often a factor at WDW- it is not always a bad thing to have a predictable, fair (if not generous) compensation.

She also noted that she would much rather have $5 per person of a full restaurant, than what she was making BEFORE the DDP increased her income. She was also new enough that she didn't carry forward legacy thinking about some former glory days when the economics of the job may have been more favorable on some other dimension (as an IT worker since the 1980's, I can attest to the fact that the economics of a free - global - market are always in flux)

I can relate to this tip discussion - as well as the recommendation that, if you KNOW the compensation plan is less than 15% (which it will be at non-Disney restaurants) and you CARE about tipping to some threshold that you believe it correct, by all means, make up the difference. The DDP indicates that it includes TIP, but it does not guarantee how much. I agree with the writer who suggests that, if you want to complain, write to the individual, non-Disney restaurant manager.

Keep in mind, when a restaurant accepts a flat reimbursement rate for the meal (for example, at Cooke's Raglan Road, they get $8.40 per counter service meal), they are working with "soft dollars" and a profit margin. When they, in turn, have to pay tip to staff, those are "hard dollars" without a margin. It makes economic sense to me to plan for an "average" tip rate, when you know the DDP people are almost always going to order the most expensive stuff - and it is no more difficult (work) to serve a $35 filet than a $18 pasta dish.

 

[castleri]

Thanks Bicker for that info. I had no idea that some restaurants were not owned by Disney. Never crossed my mind. I assume they just lease the space in the hotel then and pay royalties to Disney?

I was baffled that Disney would do something like this, and it certainly make me feel better that they are not a part of it. Do you still think it is worth bringing to Disney's attention?

I am certain Disney knows about this - it is simply that they pay a flat amount to the restaurant - $25 per DDP meal served and the restaurant in turn bases the tip on that amount unlike Disney owned places where the tip is on the actual full price of the meal that you would have had to pay cash for if not on the DDP. I think that many people who are aware of this leave extra tip money to make up for the shortfall. It has not been stated if each place negotiates the amount or if Disney simply states - this is how much we will give you per meal if you participate in the DDP and they then decide if they want to be part of the program that year. Some of these are also the ones that have restrictions on what you can order if you are on the DDP.

 

[bicker]

Waitress we had in June mentioned that they get a flat $5 per person in tip. She said she was VERY happy with the arrangement, because that was more than she gets from most tables. In other words, most tables do not order the quantity of food people on the DDP do, so the meal price isn't high enough per person to get a "$5 per person tip". She basically suggested that she generally does the same amount of work for a DDP table as a non-DDP table - and, on average, gets a better tip.

What an interesting insight. Thanks for sharing that!

 

[ntsammy5]

Yeah we found this out last trip at San Angel when we asked the wit person directly. She said she could not comment, which was comment enough. There have/had been several other posts warning about the tipping practices at non-Disney restaurants, so we handled that by leaving more of a tip, which BTW we almost always did anyhow.

I was not aware that Maya Grill was a non-Disney owned restaurant though and also had never heard about the per person tip. That's a novel idea, actually, and worthy of some consideration.

Should the wait staff be given a gratuity based on the price of the meal or the work involved in serving it? A tip based on the number of people served makes sense. I like that idea because the amount of work the server does is generally not related at all to the cost of the meal.

Very interesting. Thanks for that information

 

[Merriwind]

From my perspective, it isn't realistic to expect a restaurant to tip on a $50 tab if they're only getting paid $25. That is Disney's decision--to reimburse restaurants at that rate, knowing that it doesn't come close to the cost of food ordered--and the restaurant's decision--to participate in DDP and accept that payment. (It's a tough one though, since Disney's only receiving $38pp--and that has to cover food, tax and tip.) However, I don't feel that it is my responsibility to subsidize Disney by making up for their decision not to reimburse or tip what customers actually consume. So, if we're on DDP, we won't eat at non-DDP TS restaurant. Simple for me.

I think it's great that some, out of the goodness of their hearts, decide to tip extra on the DDP. Remember, though, that the DDP has been around for a long time now and the per person tip is not a surprise to the servers working at the non-Disney restaurants. A point well taken is that it takes no more work to serve the menu's most expensive item as the least. From reading posts around here looking for lobster and best bang for the buck and menu analysis, I imagine many DDP diners regularly order the most expensive item. So tips for DDP diners likely are regularly quite inflated over that of the average diner.

I would think that there must be a happy medium somewhere--something fair to servers, but not eating up a lot the daily DDP payment in tips to servers (at Disney-owned restaurants) who know how to work the system. I don't know what it is, but I think it must be out there...

 

[Aimeedyan]

Raglan Road was the same way. They are given only so much by Disney to reimb for the items ordered and the tip was based off of that amount - not the true menu price amount.

We gave her extra when we realized her tip was MUCH less than 18%.

 

[kaytieeldr]

From my perspective, it isn't realistic to expect a restaurant to tip on a $50 tab if they're only getting paid $25. That is Disney's decision--to reimburse restaurants at that rate, knowing that it doesn't come close to the cost of food ordered

$25 may not cover the price of the food ordered - but frequently comes close, and price is entirely different from cost. I'm not defending the contract Disney has with non-Disney-owned restaurants regarding reimbursement in relation to Dining Plan Guests' meals - just trying to explain that the terms which seem synonymous, actually aren't.


bicker probably knows the answer to this better than most people so... does the Disney Dining Plan literature states that it includes a gratuity of 18% on all table service meals, or just that it includes the gratuity?

 

[bicker]

From my perspective, it isn't realistic to expect a restaurant to tip on a $50 tab if they're only getting paid $25. That is Disney's decision--to reimburse restaurants at that rate, knowing that it doesn't come close to the cost of food ordered--and the restaurant's decision--to participate in DDP and accept that payment. (It's a tough one though, since Disney's only receiving $38pp--and that has to cover food, tax and tip.)

I have just a little problem with that logic. Disney's allocation per meal is nothing short of a discount. So the question comes down to when you apply a discount, do you tip on the regular price or do you tip on the discounted price. Standard practice is to tip on the regular price. Some of the non-Disney-owned restaurants are indeed violating that practice. That's their decision and their decision alone, and all credit or blame that may need to associated with that decision should rest on them.

However, I don't feel that it is my responsibility to subsidize Disney by making up for their decision not to reimburse or tip what customers actually consume.

Again, that decision is not Disney's; that is the decision of the non-Disney-owned restaurant. AFAIK, Disney does tip its staff based on the actual amount of the bill, not based on any specific allocation.

I agree that it is surely not the patron's responsibility to subsidize the non-Disney-owned restaurants by making up for the fact that they tip-out their staff in such a manner.

So, if we're on DDP, we won't eat at non-DDP TS restaurant. Simple for me.

Uh.... Do you mean you won't eat at any non-Disney-owned restaurants (Chefs de France, Alfredos, Raglan Road, Wolfgang Puck, and the rest...)?

I would think that there must be a happy medium somewhere--something fair to servers, but not eating up a lot the daily DDP payment in tips to servers (at Disney-owned restaurants) who know how to work the system. I don't know what it is, but I think it must be out there...

Personally, I don't see a way. The three obvious ones (don't allow non-Disney restaurants; don't allow flat-rate tipping; make patrons pay the different at non-Disney restaurants) aren't fair to someone.

 

[bicker]

$25 may not cover the price of the food ordered - but frequently comes close, and price is entirely different from cost.

Absolutely. And keep in mind that Dining Plan participants avoid one of the larger costs of running a restaurant -- the cost of customer acquisition. Indeed, Disney is incurring that cost through its promotion of the Dining Plan.

bicker probably knows the answer to this better than most people so... does the Disney Dining Plan literature states that it includes a gratuity of 18% on all table service meals, or just that it includes the gratuity?

The 18% number was never released officially by Disney. That is inside information that folks acquired at the time of the 2005-2006 price increase. The Dining Plan states definitively that gratuities are included in the price. It doesn't indicate how much of what you pay is the gratuity.

 

[SlightlyGoofy]

I often use discount coupons, some are B1G1F, when we eat out and I always tip on what the full amount might have been.

That being said I often overtip at cheaper places as I do not feel it right that they get so little for all their work while the expensive places give such a higher percentage to their waitstaff.

I did some loose figuring on the DP and saw that the average tip was about $15 for the two of us. If a waiter had 4 tables turn over in an hour, not unreasonable, it would be $60 an hour. More if there were more than two people at each table. Just something to think about.

While I am on this subject it seems to me that with such high wages DW should be able to attract some better wait staff than they have at SOME of their places.

If I am tipping at the high end I should get high end service.

JMO, Slightly Goofy

 

[bicker]

Well service actually works the OTHER way: If you get great service, then you should "tip at the high end".

Beyond that, the amount servers make does affect the quality of service (higher wages attract better staff), but how much servers make is a reflection of what all guests give them, not just any one of us. Furthermore, the quality of service -- the quality of servers -- is greatly influenced by the available labor pool. When unemployment in the Orlando area is low (as it is these days), then there aren't many choices for employers.

 

[SlightlyGoofy]

Bicker, I am not as concise as you are. I think I did not state my case properly.

I often get great service at places where the food bill is not very high and poor service where it is.

If I tip according to what my bill is (which I usually do) it seems as if the higher priced wait staff is earning far more than it might deserve while the lower end restaurant's staff is grossly underpaid. (especially when you consider that the cheaper places often require more from their staff in actually preparing some of the food and busing tables, etc.)

It would seem, to me, that wages of $60 an hour would attract many applicants and thus the employers could be far more picky than they seem to be.

It occurs to me that, possibly, Disney and other such venues might limit the hours of their wait staff to avoid paying benefits and such and thus $60 an hour might not be all that great a deal UNLESS you have a spouse who has benefits and would like to work part time at a high wage.

My waitress at WGP, when asked, volunteered that she liked the DP because they got many European customers who did not tip at all. I did not understand, until our second visit there, that the DP paid a set amount instead of giving a tip on what we ordered or I would have left more than I did.

IMO, restaurants should just charge enough for the food to cover wages for the wait staff. I know that some say that would do away with excellent service but if we do not like the food at a place we do not return and few of us return if the service is bad also so it would behoove the establishments to keep the quality up to par on all levels.

Just think of all the time we would save in not having to figure out percentages or arguing about what is 'right' to do. We could then do something about World Peace.

Slightly Goofy

 

[bicker]

IMO, restaurants should just charge enough for the food to cover wages for the wait staff.

There are several problems with that idea, and you noted most of them, but the one you missed is that restaurants run a big risk doing this unless ALL restaurants do it.