Debt Dumpers - 2016

I saw a new money saving challenge on Facebook today I'm going to try. On the first day of the year put $.01 in a jar, second day $.02, one hundredth day $1.00, 365th day $3.65. At the end of the year it's $667. A little easier to scrape together than the 52 week savings challenge.


Savings is savings! Good for you! ...and when you have loose change, throw that in too! Or make another jar for the lose change for small expenditures - small gifts, dinners, a movie that you REALLY want to see, a box of Girl Scout cookies, other donations...
 
I have followed this thread off and on for a couple of years. Things got out of hand in 2015 and we have accumulated credit card debt. I couldn't say no to a couple of much needed vacations, ate out way too much, and shopped too much. I need to sit down and refigure out our budget and where everything is going.

I need to come up with a good system to keep track of everything. Anyone have any good tips of getting started?


Welcome! First thing you need to do is sit down and write down all your debts and the interest/payment you are paying. A lot of people on the thread have used budget planning software to keep track of everything like mint or ynab. I never have. I just put everything on paper and set it up that way. Everyone has their own method. Some prefer to start paying as much as possible on the cc with the highest interest rate and just the minimum on the smaller interest cards. A lot of us like to pay the smallest balance off first and then snowball that money to the next cc. I did the smallest balance because once you get that first card paid off you really feel the accomplishment! Good luck and remember we're all here to offer advice or just hear you vent! And always be prepared for a little setback from Murphy! He likes to visit when you feel like your making progress!!
 
I am only able to log on once a week or two. You guys always make me happy with the responses to the others! I love you all!

So I somehow threw out my back last week. It hurt Wednesday, but I mustered through. When I woke up Thursday, it was completely fine. I worked a half day, took my two DDs to see the flooding (we live in St. Louis, you likely saw something on the news, it was historical) then came home to clean before a couple teenagers came over. I was cleaning the toilet, I stood up and BAM! It hit me like a ton of rocks. Yesterday I went to the urgent care, they did x-rays and determined it must be a pinched nerve down by the pelvis. I got a steroid shot, muscle relaxer, and a couple other pain pills. Slept 6 hours and felt much better at 10 o'clock last night. But woke up today with pain in my upper torso. Maybe it's more of a tightness. I understand if I have a disc issue, an x-ray won't show, only an MRI. So, I'll see how I feel today and tonight to see if I need to call an orthopedic.

The good news, I have great insurance thru the university where I work (has an awesome teaching & research hospital linked) so my co-pay was only $35. I know I'll get a bill for reading the xray and I had to pay $45 for the 3 scripts, but they could fill my script immediately and saved me time to go to the pharmacy. I'll just turn it into my FSA fir reimbursement. Guess I can also get a refund from my prescription card provider on what I wasn't "supposed" to pay.

I hope I can go to work tomorrow at least part of the day. We'll see.
 
That is a aweful roommate. I hope you confronted him and are no longer roommates. Flat out stealing from you is not acceptable. On the flip side, you might find a bank that money can not be easily removed. Like one that has to be cut opened or has a lock and key. That might even work without the roommate issue because if you are inclined to take money out yourself it makes it more of a chore. Especially if the key is kept at work (parents house) or a separate location.

There's a whole lotta of back-story on the roommate. I did get a moneybox with a combination lock that I use for when the roommates pay their rent. It is a couple of days between when they get paid and when I can get the money to the bank, and they both prefer to pay cash instead of check, so this lessens the temptation. But it is still not an ideal situation. But, I'm sure that as soon as I check the powerball, I'll see that I won last night. ;-) and problems over.

I am only able to log on once a week or two. You guys always make me happy with the responses to the others! I love you all!

So I somehow threw out my back last week. It hurt Wednesday, but I mustered through. When I woke up Thursday, it was completely fine. I worked a half day, took my two DDs to see the flooding (we live in St. Louis, you likely saw something on the news, it was historical) then came home to clean before a couple teenagers came over. I was cleaning the toilet, I stood up and BAM! It hit me like a ton of rocks. Yesterday I went to the urgent care, they did x-rays and determined it must be a pinched nerve down by the pelvis. I got a steroid shot, muscle relaxer, and a couple other pain pills. Slept 6 hours and felt much better at 10 o'clock last night. But woke up today with pain in my upper torso. Maybe it's more of a tightness. I understand if I have a disc issue, an x-ray won't show, only an MRI. So, I'll see how I feel today and tonight to see if I need to call an orthopedic.

The good news, I have great insurance thru the university where I work (has an awesome teaching & research hospital linked) so my co-pay was only $35. I know I'll get a bill for reading the xray and I had to pay $45 for the 3 scripts, but they could fill my script immediately and saved me time to go to the pharmacy. I'll just turn it into my FSA fir reimbursement. Guess I can also get a refund from my prescription card provider on what I wasn't "supposed" to pay.

I hope I can go to work tomorrow at least part of the day. We'll see.

That sounds very similar to what happened to me last May. And depending on the disc issue, they can be seen on an x-ray. Or at least both my chiropractor and orthopedic were able to identify misaligned discs from x-rays. Speaking of, go to a chiropractor. Mine did more to help than anything the doctor ever did.
 

I am only able to log on once a week or two. You guys always make me happy with the responses to the others! I love you all!

So I somehow threw out my back last week. It hurt Wednesday, but I mustered through. When I woke up Thursday, it was completely fine. I worked a half day, took my two DDs to see the flooding (we live in St. Louis, you likely saw something on the news, it was historical) then came home to clean before a couple teenagers came over. I was cleaning the toilet, I stood up and BAM! It hit me like a ton of rocks. Yesterday I went to the urgent care, they did x-rays and determined it must be a pinched nerve down by the pelvis. I got a steroid shot, muscle relaxer, and a couple other pain pills. Slept 6 hours and felt much better at 10 o'clock last night. But woke up today with pain in my upper torso. Maybe it's more of a tightness. I understand if I have a disc issue, an x-ray won't show, only an MRI. So, I'll see how I feel today and tonight to see if I need to call an orthopedic.

The good news, I have great insurance thru the university where I work (has an awesome teaching & research hospital linked) so my co-pay was only $35. I know I'll get a bill for reading the xray and I had to pay $45 for the 3 scripts, but they could fill my script immediately and saved me time to go to the pharmacy. I'll just turn it into my FSA fir reimbursement. Guess I can also get a refund from my prescription card provider on what I wasn't "supposed" to pay.

I hope I can go to work tomorrow at least part of the day. We'll see.

So sorry to hear about your back Gena!! I hope you feel better soon!
 
I am only able to log on once a week or two. You guys always make me happy with the responses to the others! I love you all!

So I somehow threw out my back last week. It hurt Wednesday, but I mustered through. When I woke up Thursday, it was completely fine. I worked a half day, took my two DDs to see the flooding (we live in St. Louis, you likely saw something on the news, it was historical) then came home to clean before a couple teenagers came over. I was cleaning the toilet, I stood up and BAM! It hit me like a ton of rocks. Yesterday I went to the urgent care, they did x-rays and determined it must be a pinched nerve down by the pelvis. I got a steroid shot, muscle relaxer, and a couple other pain pills. Slept 6 hours and felt much better at 10 o'clock last night. But woke up today with pain in my upper torso. Maybe it's more of a tightness. I understand if I have a disc issue, an x-ray won't show, only an MRI. So, I'll see how I feel today and tonight to see if I need to call an orthopedic.

The good news, I have great insurance thru the university where I work (has an awesome teaching & research hospital linked) so my co-pay was only $35. I know I'll get a bill for reading the xray and I had to pay $45 for the 3 scripts, but they could fill my script immediately and saved me time to go to the pharmacy. I'll just turn it into my FSA fir reimbursement. Guess I can also get a refund from my prescription card provider on what I wasn't "supposed" to pay.

I hope I can go to work tomorrow at least part of the day. We'll see.


Ouch! I hope you feel better soon! Pinched nerves definitely take time to heal. I'm so glad that your part of this thread even though you only get to log on once or twice a week! What kind of work do you do at the university?
 
Capital One 360!
They used to be ING.com which is when I started with them in 2005. They were taken over by Capital One a few years later.
As long as you're able to link your savings account to another bank to transfer $ in and out you're good.
There are no fees unless you're overdrawn and no minimum balances. Once you're a customer, you can have up to 25 savings accounts with them.
So I have one for Emergency Fund, Car Insurance, quarterly sewer bill, Vacation, College Funds, etc.
They also offer free checking. Again, no fees or minimums as long as you're not overdrawn. Free ATM. This is what I used as a separate checking account when I first started to pay my weekly snowball payment so it didn't blend with our regular checking account. I treat it like it's just another bill.

In the last 2.5 years I've gotten better/stronger with snowballing and now transferring to another account only delays making the payment another 2 days later. Now I just schedule the snowball payment to occur the day before payday and then on payday the money goes in and the payment comes out. Almost instant gratification. ;)

Thank you for this info. I will check them out if my bank charges for additional accounts.

I have checked out the YNAB site and have gone through 7 of the free email tips. I did my outgo and discovered (as I suspected but didn't want to face) I waste a lot of money. I'm not going to dwell on the wastefulness, but with just a few tweaks I will be able to payoff my cc debt by the end of February and then payoff my DVC hopefully the end of April or mid-May. I am optimistic for the first time in my life about being disciplined enough to follow through with this very important step (budgeting). You all are very encouraging and motivating and I thank, thank, thank you all. I think I am going to buy YNAB but want to look into Mint(? I think it's called) software also.
 
Ouch! I hope you feel better soon! Pinched nerves definitely take time to heal. I'm so glad that your part of this thread even though you only get to log on once or twice a week! What kind of work do you do at the university?

Thanks Gracie (and everyone)! I've never had back issues and have always been strong as a horse, but getting old sucks!

I work in administration in one of the university's schools. Part of my job is some H.R., some payroll and some facilities (coordinating office relocations, hiring movers, fulfilling faculty and staff requests, many other things). I've been there just over 2 years and love it. I wish I could have gotten a job there sooner so my DD16 will be able to take full advantage of the tuition benefits. It will be the spring semester of her junior year before we're eligible to use that.
 
Thanks Gracie (and everyone)! I've never had back issues and have always been strong as a horse, but getting old sucks!

I work in administration in one of the university's schools. Part of my job is some H.R., some payroll and some facilities (coordinating office relocations, hiring movers, fulfilling faculty and staff requests, many other things). I've been there just over 2 years and love it. I wish I could have gotten a job there sooner so my DD16 will be able to take full advantage of the tuition benefits. It will be the spring semester of her junior year before we're eligible to use that.


At least she will be able to get some discount for a couple of her college years. It's nice to have a job that you like - and great benefits!! Keep us posted on how your test results are!
 
Ok coming on to vent - I knew my car needed a service and was expecting about $200 but Oh no just got off the phone the first price I have been given was $980!!!!:scared1: He was like yeah the transmission oil alone is $300 yikes - he then said he could probably get it down to about $750 interesting it can drop so quickly :confused3. I used this same mechanic for its last service you would think they would give you a heads up that the next service is an expensive one so that you can save for it, so disappointed about that too - so now I will find a different mechanic based on that as well as they were more expensive to start with.

I have googled and a few other mechanics in the area are advertising about $660 for the same service. Still more than I had budgeted for but I am going to have to pay it and that just means that paying off the outstanding primary school tuition debt won't happen now. Talk about a bad start to the new year and a set back for dumping the debt :sad:
 
Ok coming on to vent - I knew my car needed a service and was expecting about $200 but Oh no just got off the phone the first price I have been given was $980!!!!:scared1: He was like yeah the transmission oil alone is $300 yikes - he then said he could probably get it down to about $750 interesting it can drop so quickly :confused3. I used this same mechanic for its last service you would think they would give you a heads up that the next service is an expensive one so that you can save for it, so disappointed about that too - so now I will find a different mechanic based on that as well as they were more expensive to start with.

I have googled and a few other mechanics in the area are advertising about $660 for the same service. Still more than I had budgeted for but I am going to have to pay it and that just means that paying off the outstanding primary school tuition debt won't happen now. Talk about a bad start to the new year and a set back for dumping the debt :sad:
Car repairs are the worst. Hopefully this is it for you for awhile.
 
Wow this thread has really taken off over the holidays. I have a lot of reading to do. lol.

I wanted to share some good news I got just before the holiday break. I found out that I got the transfer I wanted at work. It doesn't come with a raise but I does set me up for future promotions which is great. But the main thing I'm super excited about is instead of an hour commute each way I'll have a 20 min commute. I'm really excited to see by budget for gas drop. Right now I have to fill up twice a week.
 
Can I come on here and whine for a bit?

I posted the following on facebook. My friends were quite supportive. My family...not so much. I accidentally posted it where all could see it, instead of on a frugal group page, so I guess it serves me right:

Okay, I have all my goals set for the year and I am pretty pumped about them!! Fair warning...this will be a long post.

On the frugal front, I've decided to try something new. Well, a couple of new things actually. I'm a bit nervous about one of them, but I think it's going to be spectacular in the long run.

First, a little background. My dad always taught us to FILL the gas tank when we were filling up. Like even if the automatic shut off cut us off, he'd keep going to round up to the next dollar and he taught us to do that too. It's easier for accounting, so I'm still doing it 24 years later.

But, in December, I stopped pumping the full amount of gas budgeted for the week. At present, I allow myself $40 a week when no out of town activities are expected. But even if there was potentially room in the tank, I didn't put in more than $35. I never heard the automatic shut off for the entire month, although I usually got pretty close to the full line with $35. We generally use about half of a tank per week for regular to and fro transportation. For the first half of the month, this practice had me ahead of them game, but in the end, the extra money got used up anyway since we had two trips to Chatham/Windsor but I really liked being under budget each week, even by just a couple of bucks.

So much so, that I've decided to continue it. I'm going to pump $5 less each week than the amount I have available in the budget. If I need the money later in the week or later in the month, it will still be sitting there in the bank account, ready for use. BUT, if I still have any of that money left when the next payday rolls around...I'll be pretty excited. I think I'll add it to the vacation fund.

And since that's been such a fun experience, I've decided to do the same thing with the grocery budget. Only I think I'm going to aim for about $7 a week for that one. A dollar a day. I dunno why...it just feels right. LOL

And the BIG change is that I'm going to be paying for my groceries...

with cash!!!

I like the pay at the pump feature too much to mess with going inside and standing in line to pay, so I'll still be using the credit card for gasoline but I think the cash system benefits at the grocery store will far outweigh the few inconveniences this switch will make.

I'm a little nervous about it. I've NEVER paid for my groceries with cash. Well not for the last 17 years for sure...I've always used either gift cards, debit or credit, so this will take some getting used to.

But I am up to the challenge. So cash for food, $7 under budget for groceries and $5 under budget for gasoline.

And it all starts tomorrow! EEK!!



My dad (who lives about 250 miles from me) responded like this:

Let ne know when the carburetor freezes up from the water conensation in the fuel system this winter so I can laugh so loudly you will hear me from Chatham.

And my aunt responded like this:

The cost of all groceries is rising significantly this year so you'll be getting alot less if youre taking money from your grocery budget


Family...you can always count on them to crap all over your exciting ideas. :sad:

For the record, I knew grocery prices were going to rise (some have already) and I increased my budget accordingly. I'm still hoping to scale it back some though.


**I left their typos because I am small and petty it hurts a little less. :rotfl2:
 
Ok coming on to vent - I knew my car needed a service and was expecting about $200 but Oh no just got off the phone the first price I have been given was $980!!!!:scared1: He was like yeah the transmission oil alone is $300 yikes - he then said he could probably get it down to about $750 interesting it can drop so quickly :confused3. I used this same mechanic for its last service you would think they would give you a heads up that the next service is an expensive one so that you can save for it, so disappointed about that too - so now I will find a different mechanic based on that as well as they were more expensive to start with.

I have googled and a few other mechanics in the area are advertising about $660 for the same service. Still more than I had budgeted for but I am going to have to pay it and that just means that paying off the outstanding primary school tuition debt won't happen now. Talk about a bad start to the new year and a set back for dumping the debt :sad:

Yikes! I hate taking my car in for service because it always costs a lot more than anticipated. I would shop around and call a couple places to price it out. And even call the dealer to see what they charge. I have to have work done on my car and I called the dealer to see what they charged and it was the same as the mechanic down the road - so it is no bargain and will go to the dealer who will at least warranty the work.
 
Can I come on here and whine for a bit?

I posted the following on facebook. My friends were quite supportive. My family...not so much. I accidentally posted it where all could see it, instead of on a frugal group page, so I guess it serves me right:

Okay, I have all my goals set for the year and I am pretty pumped about them!! Fair warning...this will be a long post.

On the frugal front, I've decided to try something new. Well, a couple of new things actually. I'm a bit nervous about one of them, but I think it's going to be spectacular in the long run.

First, a little background. My dad always taught us to FILL the gas tank when we were filling up. Like even if the automatic shut off cut us off, he'd keep going to round up to the next dollar and he taught us to do that too. It's easier for accounting, so I'm still doing it 24 years later.

But, in December, I stopped pumping the full amount of gas budgeted for the week. At present, I allow myself $40 a week when no out of town activities are expected. But even if there was potentially room in the tank, I didn't put in more than $35. I never heard the automatic shut off for the entire month, although I usually got pretty close to the full line with $35. We generally use about half of a tank per week for regular to and fro transportation. For the first half of the month, this practice had me ahead of them game, but in the end, the extra money got used up anyway since we had two trips to Chatham/Windsor but I really liked being under budget each week, even by just a couple of bucks.

So much so, that I've decided to continue it. I'm going to pump $5 less each week than the amount I have available in the budget. If I need the money later in the week or later in the month, it will still be sitting there in the bank account, ready for use. BUT, if I still have any of that money left when the next payday rolls around...I'll be pretty excited. I think I'll add it to the vacation fund.

And since that's been such a fun experience, I've decided to do the same thing with the grocery budget. Only I think I'm going to aim for about $7 a week for that one. A dollar a day. I dunno why...it just feels right. LOL

And the BIG change is that I'm going to be paying for my groceries...

with cash!!!

I like the pay at the pump feature too much to mess with going inside and standing in line to pay, so I'll still be using the credit card for gasoline but I think the cash system benefits at the grocery store will far outweigh the few inconveniences this switch will make.

I'm a little nervous about it. I've NEVER paid for my groceries with cash. Well not for the last 17 years for sure...I've always used either gift cards, debit or credit, so this will take some getting used to.

But I am up to the challenge. So cash for food, $7 under budget for groceries and $5 under budget for gasoline.

And it all starts tomorrow! EEK!!



My dad (who lives about 250 miles from me) responded like this:

Let ne know when the carburetor freezes up from the water conensation in the fuel system this winter so I can laugh so loudly you will hear me from Chatham.

And my aunt responded like this:

The cost of all groceries is rising significantly this year so you'll be getting alot less if youre taking money from your grocery budget


Family...you can always count on them to crap all over your exciting ideas. :sad:

For the record, I knew grocery prices were going to rise (some have already) and I increased my budget accordingly. I'm still hoping to scale it back some though.


**I left their typos because I am small and petty it hurts a little less. :rotfl2:


Is your dad a mechanic?
 
So I got the free trial lf YNAB and it's pretty sweet. I couldn't wait for my paycheck to come in to start it, so I guesstimated it and created a budget. We tend to overspend on weekends after payday (the whole "yay money, let's spend it" mindset), so I think having something that tells us how much we can spend on things will definitely help. It's also helping me look ahead to expenses coming up that I normally don't think about until they hit. Like dog food. It's about $60 a month, but we don't think about it until we're out, and then that's $60 that we never planned to spend (even though it happens every month). Now, a portion of that money is already in the budget so when the time comes, feeding the dog won't be such a worry.

Thank you to everyone who recommended it! It's really going to help a lot. I don't like that it's a monthly/yearly thing now, but if it works like I think it will during the free trial, I'm willing to pay for it.
 
Wow this thread has really taken off over the holidays. I have a lot of reading to do. lol.

I wanted to share some good news I got just before the holiday break. I found out that I got the transfer I wanted at work. It doesn't come with a raise but I does set me up for future promotions which is great. But the main thing I'm super excited about is instead of an hour commute each way I'll have a 20 min commute. I'm really excited to see by budget for gas drop. Right now I have to fill up twice a week.


Your not kidding this thread has taken off!! Congrats on getting your job transfer! Even though it didn't come with a raise it will save you money on gas - and a lot less commute time!
 
I was active in the Debt Dumpers 2014 thread, but didn't post as much in 2015 -- some job instability set our plans back. 2015 wasn't so much about dumping debt as it was about avoiding to take on more! So, our long awaited Disney vacation has been yet-again postponed indefinitely, but we are focused on how good it feels to have kept our heads above water during a challenging year, still without any CC debt just an HELOC and Car loan, and prepared to face on-going challenges in 2016! Here's to hoping our career situation gets resolved in the coming months
 
Last edited:
Can I come on here and whine for a bit?

I posted the following on facebook. My friends were quite supportive. My family...not so much. I accidentally posted it where all could see it, instead of on a frugal group page, so I guess it serves me right:

Okay, I have all my goals set for the year and I am pretty pumped about them!! Fair warning...this will be a long post.

On the frugal front, I've decided to try something new. Well, a couple of new things actually. I'm a bit nervous about one of them, but I think it's going to be spectacular in the long run.

First, a little background. My dad always taught us to FILL the gas tank when we were filling up. Like even if the automatic shut off cut us off, he'd keep going to round up to the next dollar and he taught us to do that too. It's easier for accounting, so I'm still doing it 24 years later.

But, in December, I stopped pumping the full amount of gas budgeted for the week. At present, I allow myself $40 a week when no out of town activities are expected. But even if there was potentially room in the tank, I didn't put in more than $35. I never heard the automatic shut off for the entire month, although I usually got pretty close to the full line with $35. We generally use about half of a tank per week for regular to and fro transportation. For the first half of the month, this practice had me ahead of them game, but in the end, the extra money got used up anyway since we had two trips to Chatham/Windsor but I really liked being under budget each week, even by just a couple of bucks.

So much so, that I've decided to continue it. I'm going to pump $5 less each week than the amount I have available in the budget. If I need the money later in the week or later in the month, it will still be sitting there in the bank account, ready for use. BUT, if I still have any of that money left when the next payday rolls around...I'll be pretty excited. I think I'll add it to the vacation fund.

And since that's been such a fun experience, I've decided to do the same thing with the grocery budget. Only I think I'm going to aim for about $7 a week for that one. A dollar a day. I dunno why...it just feels right. LOL

And the BIG change is that I'm going to be paying for my groceries...

with cash!!!

I like the pay at the pump feature too much to mess with going inside and standing in line to pay, so I'll still be using the credit card for gasoline but I think the cash system benefits at the grocery store will far outweigh the few inconveniences this switch will make.

I'm a little nervous about it. I've NEVER paid for my groceries with cash. Well not for the last 17 years for sure...I've always used either gift cards, debit or credit, so this will take some getting used to.

But I am up to the challenge. So cash for food, $7 under budget for groceries and $5 under budget for gasoline.

And it all starts tomorrow! EEK!!



My dad (who lives about 250 miles from me) responded like this:

Let ne know when the carburetor freezes up from the water conensation in the fuel system this winter so I can laugh so loudly you will hear me from Chatham.

And my aunt responded like this:

The cost of all groceries is rising significantly this year so you'll be getting alot less if youre taking money from your grocery budget


Family...you can always count on them to crap all over your exciting ideas. :sad:

For the record, I knew grocery prices were going to rise (some have already) and I increased my budget accordingly. I'm still hoping to scale it back some though.


**I left their typos because I am small and petty it hurts a little less. :rotfl2:

I'm not a mechanic by any means, but I don't understand your dad's comment about the fuel system... how would not filling your tank totally full cause your carburetor to freeze up? Plenty of people don't fill their tanks completely full when they go to the gas station, and other don't use that much fuel so their cars may sit with half full tanks for quite a while...
 
Ok coming on to vent - I knew my car needed a service and was expecting about $200 but Oh no just got off the phone the first price I have been given was $980!!!!:scared1: He was like yeah the transmission oil alone is $300 yikes - he then said he could probably get it down to about $750 interesting it can drop so quickly :confused3. I used this same mechanic for its last service you would think they would give you a heads up that the next service is an expensive one so that you can save for it, so disappointed about that too - so now I will find a different mechanic based on that as well as they were more expensive to start with.

I have googled and a few other mechanics in the area are advertising about $660 for the same service. Still more than I had budgeted for but I am going to have to pay it and that just means that paying off the outstanding primary school tuition debt won't happen now. Talk about a bad start to the new year and a set back for dumping the debt :sad:

Oh no! I was hit with a huge problem with one of my cylinder s misfiring before Christmas. I took it to the dealership and they told me it was a defect and that Chylster company would pay the whole repair cost ($1800). If you have a newer vehicle (mine is a 2012) maybe you can check online to make sure it's not a recall or anything before using a private mechanic. I would have never thought to do that before this particular instance.
 





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