Debating DVC Purchase

[sagosto]

Does the buyer pay/share a percent of the commission for resale?

 

[Sandisw]

Does the buyer pay/share a percent of the commission for resale?

Seller pays commission to the broker. Buyer pays price per point, plus any closing costs or MFs which they agree to as part of the sale.

Everything is negotiable.

 

[havoc315]

To me, DVC is daunting with all the points, resale vs direct, trading up/down, recent rules change, large upfront investment, etc. My wife is intrigued about the recent deal for Riviera so I am jumping in to educate myself. I have a ton of questions but need a good starting point. For reference, we are a family of 4 (42/39/4/7) from North Jersey and typically go to WDW once a year typically 1st week November (Jersey Week) or May at least pre-COVID. We would normally stay at AOA or Caribbean Beach so I was hesitant to consider Riviera. We typically stayed 8 days and with a 6 day ticket. It would be preferred to be able to trade to be able to have the flexibility of trying other resorts including Aulani. The upfront cost is not a deal breaker and no financing is needed. I am trying to understand if it makes sense to make a large purchase when we typically pay $2500 in hotel charges ($300 a night for moderate).

Others may have said this but I didn't read all the posts.

I probably discourage DVC purchase more than I encourage it, but you're likely the ideal customer:

- You say you can afford the up-front costs without financing, that's huge.
- Your family is the right age to enjoy it for at least the next 15 years and potentially much longer
- If the regular perks come back, you may save quite a bit on tickets by purchasing Gold Passes any time you have 2 trips in the same 12 month window
-I discourage anyone from looking at DVC as a "money saver" -- it's simply a way to pre-pay your vacation at a decent value, getting a discount from having committed far in advance and accepting certain restrictions. And it really wouldn't save you money if you were going to do AOA or CBR forever. But DVC will give you a NICE upgrade in your accommodations, without really increasing your costs. May take you 10 years to "break even"... but once you pass that break even point, you're staying at the Riviera (and other properties) for lower cost than you currently pay for AOA.

If you're totally thrilled with AOA and CBR, if you don't think a nicer hotel and nicer room will affect you much... Then DVC isn't for you.
If you don't think you'll want to continue regular trips after your kids are 8/11 as opposed to 4/7, then DVC isn't for you.

 

[havoc315]

We were Caribbean Beach lovers...we stayed there every year for many many years. Then, we decided to rent points and stay at Beach Club Villas for about the same price. That taste of DVC convinced us to buy in. We ended up buying resale at Polynesian and absolutely love it there. While I'm happy we can trade into the original 14 resorts (I would love to try Aulani sometime!) 9 times out of 10 we will likely stay at Polynesian as it now feels like "home".

One thing as a Caribbean Beach lover that turned me off to Riv....is that it is a lot more $$ for the exact same location. At least with the Polynesian it feels like a bit of an upgrade in terms of location and being in the MK area on the monorail. Just my opinion though.

Actually, CBR is the better location! They have the Skyliner hub!!

Though RIviera gets outstanding views that you don't get from CBR.

But the thing is, I view it more as CBR has a greatly elevated location ever since the Skyliner. It would be a pretty bad location without it. But with it -- I'd say the location of CBR is better than the location of multiple Disney DVC's and resorts -- Better than AKL, WL/BRV/CCV, SSR, OKW.

Basically... for location... I view it as:
1. Monorail resorts
2. "Walking" Epcot resorts -- BC/YC and BW
3. Skyliner resorts CBR and RIV... I wouldn't quite rank the value Skyliners as high, they have a longer skyliner ride
4. Theme park adjacent boat resorts (Wilderness Lodge)
5. Disney Springs adjacent: SSR
6. Bus only -- OKW and AKL, most of the other mods and values

 

[sagosto]

Others may have said this but I didn't read all the posts.

I probably discourage DVC purchase more than I encourage it, but you're likely the ideal customer:

- You say you can afford the up-front costs without financing, that's huge.
- Your family is the right age to enjoy it for at least the next 15 years and potentially much longer
- If the regular perks come back, you may save quite a bit on tickets by purchasing Gold Passes any time you have 2 trips in the same 12 month window
-I discourage anyone from looking at DVC as a "money saver" -- it's simply a way to pre-pay your vacation at a decent value, getting a discount from having committed far in advance and accepting certain restrictions. And it really wouldn't save you money if you were going to do AOA or CBR forever. But DVC will give you a NICE upgrade in your accommodations, without really increasing your costs. May take you 10 years to "break even"... but once you pass that break even point, you're staying at the Riviera (and other properties) for lower cost than you currently pay for AOA.

If you're totally thrilled with AOA and CBR, if you don't think a nicer hotel and nicer room will affect you much... Then DVC isn't for you.
If you don't think you'll want to continue regular trips after your kids are 8/11 as opposed to 4/7, then DVC isn't for you.

This is really good advice. We are slowly narrowing it down. I think we are between RIV DIRECT @ 200 points (take advantage of current promotion) vs. BWV RESALE @ 240 points (1 bedroom upgrade over studio) which would cost approx. $7K less over 20 years. However, I'd have RIV for an additional 29 years. I just cringed as I typed that. If I could buy RIV RESALE and get the other resorts -- this would be MUCH easier.

 

[havoc315]

This is really good advice. We are slowly narrowing it down. I think we are between RIV DIRECT @ 200 points (take advantage of current promotion) vs. BWV RESALE @ 240 points (1 bedroom upgrade over studio) which would cost approx. $7K less over 20 years. However, I'd have RIV for an additional 29 years. I just cringed as I typed that. If I could buy RIV RESALE and get the other resorts -- this would be MUCH easier.

I would have trouble considering BWV under those circumstances.
First off -- the studios at RIV are huge. You can't compare a RIV studio to a BWV studio. And you can always use your RIV points to get a 1 BR at BWV or someplace else.

But the real issue:
BWV is $7 k cheaper over 20 years. But then it expires, it's worthless.
Put aside that you would have Riviera for another 29 years: You could re-sell it in 20 years. You would [almost] definitely get more than $7 k for it. A LOT more than $7 k. Probably more like $20k to $30k at 2021 dollars.
So that makes RIviera..... $13k to $23k cheaper than buying re-sale at BWV.

 

[KenInDenver]

Be careful with Riviera. I thought that when you resell it that the new buyer can only use it at Riviera and not other DVC resorts. This means no flexibility. Maybe this changed but if it hasn't then that will result in a much lower resale in my opinion. I would stick with one of the other resorts that do not have that restriction.

 

[4luv2cdisney]

Have you seen this yet @sagosto?

https://www.disboards.com/threads/p...tember-2019-2-bd-added.3689931/#post-59393039
This will help you understand how times you travel and room types (1 bedroom vs studio) affect the potential to trade out.

Jersey week is tough. You're really going to need to love your home resort. May is better for some resorts / rooms, though. I don't know how often you alternate.

 

[Sandisw]

Be careful with Riviera. I thought that when you resell it that the new buyer can only use it at Riviera and not other DVC resorts. This means no flexibility. Maybe this changed but if it hasn't then that will result in a much lower resale in my opinion. I would stick with one of the other resorts that do not have that restriction.

This is still true. However, so far, its selling resale better than most expected. The thing is that with DVC it is not like you only have to buy one resort,

While the pool of buyers is smaller, there are people out there who have bought RIV resale to stay there and one of the other resale resorts for trading.

So, it can be a good purchase. RIV is proving pretty popular so I think more are willing to take the risk of the resale loss than first thought. I know I did,

But, I sold BWV to buy it. I figured in 20 years, BWV was worth $0 but that I was getting an extra 28 years of use for my adult children and their families to use!

 

[havoc315]

Be careful with Riviera. I thought that when you resell it that the new buyer can only use it at Riviera and not other DVC resorts. This means no flexibility. Maybe this changed but if it hasn't then that will result in a much lower resale in my opinion. I would stick with one of the other resorts that do not have that restriction.

In 20 years when he re-sells, all the resorts will have similar restrictions.
For the time being, the restrictions have not significantly impaired ability to re-sell. Resale prices have been holding up in the $140-$150 range, better than you’d expect for any resort with $200 direct points.
So contrary to fears, the resale restrictions don’t sink the value of re-sale. Maybe they hurt the re-sale discount by a small percentage, but not enough that it should scare people away from a direct purchase.

 

[havoc315]

This is still true. However, so far, its selling resale better than most expected. The thing is that with DVC it is not like you only have to buy one resort,

While the pool of buyers is smaller, there are people out there who have bought RIV resale to stay there and one of the other resale resorts for trading.

So, it can be a good purchase. RIV is proving pretty popular so I think more are willing to take the risk of the resale loss than first thought. I know I did,

But, I sold BWV to buy it. I figured in 20 years, BWV was worth $0 but that I was getting an extra 28 years of use for my adult children and their families to use!

Staying in just 1resort isn’t such a negative to people, especially if they love the resort.

Lots of people primarily/exclusively stay in their home resort. For those that travel at certain popular times of year, they really have no choice but to stay in their home resort. Not everyone hops around to lots of resorts.

But 25 years from now, won’t make a difference. More than half the resorts will have the same re-sale restriction. The handful of “legacy” resorts still left will likely have other restrictions disfavoring re-sale.
The idea that you can use re-sale points at 95% of the resorts — that won’t exist in 20-25 years.

 

[sagosto]

I would have trouble considering BWV under those circumstances.
First off -- the studios at RIV are huge. You can't compare a RIV studio to a BWV studio. And you can always use your RIV points to get a 1 BR at BWV or someplace else.

But the real issue:
BWV is $7 k cheaper over 20 years. But then it expires, it's worthless.
Put aside that you would have Riviera for another 29 years: You could re-sell it in 20 years. You would [almost] definitely get more than $7 k for it. A LOT more than $7 k. Probably more like $20k to $30k at 2021 dollars.
So that makes RIviera..... $13k to $23k cheaper than buying re-sale at BWV.

My math was way off. For my 9 night Oct/Nov trip, 177 RR direct points (w/ closing) + 20 years of fixed maint = $67K vs. 132 BW resale points @ $122 = $37,700 for a difference of $30K. That money could be spent on more BW resale to get into a 1BR OR to get lucky and get into the more expensive/nicer Poly/VGF. But, how feasible is that given the 7 month window?

 

[MBTigger]

My math was way off. For my 9 night Oct/Nov trip, 177 RR direct points (w/ closing) + 20 years of fixed maint = $67K vs. 132 BW resale points @ $122 = $37,700 for a difference of $30K. That money could be spent on more BW resale to get into a 1BR OR to get lucky and get into the more expensive/nicer Poly/VGF. But, how feasible is that given the 7 month window?

There is a famous thread on availability here

https://www.disboards.com/threads/p...-bd-charts-september-2019-2-bd-added.3689931/
If money is not the real object, than you need to decide what you want. Are you looking for location? Are you looking for the nicest rooms? If you want the nicest rooms, RIV is a contender (Our SSR stay has us praising the Murphy beds) ). If you want location, BWV is hard to beat. VGF is probably the best combination of the 2, but is SO pricey!

I was not sure if the 7 months window would be important. My schedule can be flexible, but sometimes specific dates get blocked out between 11 and 7 months. SO I went with the price leader SSR, thinking I could get 1 bedrooms at 7 months. This year I reserved a 1 bedroom at BWV during spring break 7 months out. I had to make it a split stay to this, but that was fine by me. So far we are happy with 7 month choices, and sometimes a waitlist comes thorough!

 

[sagosto]

There is a famous thread on availability here

https://www.disboards.com/threads/p...-bd-charts-september-2019-2-bd-added.3689931/
If money is not the real object, than you need to decide what you want. Are you looking for location? Are you looking for the nicest rooms? If you want the nicest rooms, RIV is a contender (Our SSR stay has us praising the Murphy beds) ). If you want location, BWV is hard to beat. VGF is probably the best combination of the 2, but is SO pricey!

I was not sure if the 7 months window would be important. My schedule can be flexible, but sometimes specific dates get blocked out between 11 and 7 months. SO I went with the price leader SSR, thinking I could get 1 bedrooms at 7 months. This year I reserved a 1 bedroom at BWV during spring break 7 months out. I had to make it a split stay to this, but that was fine by me. So far we are happy with 7 month choices, and sometimes a waitlist comes thorough!

I think it comes down to RR direct vs. BW resale w/ 2X points. This would allow a 1BR villa *OR* 1 additional week per year. RR is nicer and has the longer contract but costs more. I love the idea of the contract as it adds more value but Disney has shown to constantly remove perks and nickle and dime that I don't trust them long term... Grr.

 

[Sunnyore]

Good luck! I find the MK resorts all have something special to offer, but lack something another one has. I have yet to be able to choose one!

Location is top priority to us as well and we loved POR so much I was worried we'd miss it (We do a little and may split stay there sometimes). Currently, my dream trip is 4 nights at BWV for walking to Epcot and HS, 3 nights at (BLT? Poly? VGF? CCV?) for MK and some specialty dining or shows, fireworks from TOTWL or the Poly beach etc and 2-3 nights at SSR to relax, shop and dine at DS before we head home. I acually like SSR and love walking over to DS whenever we want to. Booking preferred and a little luck for a Congress Park request is worth it IMO). Visiting AK would probably be the day we switch from MK area resort to SSR and probably the only day we use the busses if we don't have a car. Perhaps this will become a reality when we are retired. We don't have that kind of time to be away at this point.

I just sorta did one of your dream trips! 3 nights at Congress Park @ SSR with perfect view of DS, 2 nights at BWV and finished with 3 nights at BLT. I'm also all about location too but was a little concerned about all the packing and unpacking. It ended up being a very minor issue with bell services moving my luggages for me to my next resort and I spent the day at the park on moving days so it didn't really matter. Being in walking distances of the parks and DS is such a pro that I think I'll be doing more split stays from now on.

 

[Sandisw]

I think it comes down to RR direct vs. BW resale w/ 2X points. This would allow a 1BR villa *OR* 1 additional week per year. RR is nicer and has the longer contract but costs more. I love the idea of the contract as it adds more value but Disney has shown to constantly remove perks and nickle and dime that I don't trust them long term... Grr.

It is true that DVD has changed the program but so far, they have never added restrictions to direct points.

One other aspect to be aware of as part of the program. As we get closer to 2042, there is always a chance they suspend banking and borrowing for those resorts.

It is also possible they will remove them from BVTC the last few years, and you won’t have any trading rights.

Now, I don’t suggest anyone buy RIV who does not think it’s in their top choices. But, make sure BWV is where you want to stay if you can’t trade out.

 

[havoc315]

My math was way off. For my 9 night Oct/Nov trip, 177 RR direct points (w/ closing) + 20 years of fixed maint = $67K vs. 132 BW resale points @ $122 = $37,700 for a difference of $30K. That money could be spent on more BW resale to get into a 1BR OR to get lucky and get into the more expensive/nicer Poly/VGF. But, how feasible is that given the 7 month window?

All depends on when you travel and room type.
Getting a 1 BR at VGF in May at 7 months, not too hard. Getting a studio in VGF for Thanksgiving at 7 months, no way.


The nice thing about 132 resale at BWV, if you could always add more as your budget, desires or family grows.
Though the downside of starting there: studios at BWV are small. But still bigger than what you usually book.

Budget wise, taking into account the expiration of BWV, if re-sale values do poorly in the future, then it would be about break even. (Barring a total collapse in the re-sale market, those Riviera points would conservatively re-sell for $25-30k. If historic trends continue, they would re-sell for $40-50k in 20 years).

I wouldn’t factor in the blue card perk math except as a potential footnote. With direct points, if they bring back the Gold card perk, you would save about $2,000 per year, any time you did 2 trips in the same 12 months.

 

[havoc315]

It is true that DVD has changed the program but so far, they have never added restrictions to direct points.

One other aspect to be aware of as part of the program. As we get closer to 2042, there is always a chance they suspend banking and borrowing for those resorts.

It is also possible they will remove them from BVTC the last few years, and you won’t have any trading rights.

Now, I don’t suggest anyone buy RIV who does not think it’s in their top choices. But, make sure BWV is where you want to stay if you can’t trade out.

Yes... THIS. We are simply getting into the window where I’d be hesitant to make a big initial investment into a 2042 resort. (Different story for a current BWV owner adding 50 points, etc).

 

[RoseGold]

I think it comes down to RR direct vs. BW resale w/ 2X points. This would allow a 1BR villa *OR* 1 additional week per year. RR is nicer and has the longer contract but costs more. I love the idea of the contract as it adds more value but Disney has shown to constantly remove perks and nickle and dime that I don't trust them long term... Grr.

Here’s a thought. Your kids are very young. A 2x BW contract is an awesome value for right now and you can resell it in like 4 years. Historically, you would make money, but lets say you lose a lot, like an unprecedented 20% in a few years. That’s still only a couple grand to use the points for the cost of the dues for years, and you made that on just the free points.

This is why I loaded up on SSR points while we are still in princess dresses. My SSR contracts have two trips on them and would already make a few bucks after closing and commissions. When I bough, the math made sense to me even with a significant drop, because the points were so cheap and I’m not planning on holding long. I like high point, low demand rooms, like BLT theme park view, it made sense to me.

Right now, I am even considering selling my SSR after this summer trip, depending on how much of the experience is stripped out and if DVC customer service continues to be completely unacceptable, after 2.5 hours on the phone for a simple issue that could have been fixed on a week-ignored email. The way DVC has been cutting corners and entire sides makes me reconsider long term plans. DVC is not the product I bought into a few years ago.

Everyone acts like a DVC contract is granny’s grandfather clock, because that’s how its sold — there’s nothing wrong with an exit strategy that takes into account how young your kids are.

And if you change your mind, there is RIV or whatever the next one is. Maybe that one will be walkable.

 

[Ruttangel]

Yes... THIS. We are simply getting into the window where I’d be hesitant to make a big initial investment into a 2042 resort. (Different story for a current BWV owner adding 50 points, etc).

I think this is what is happening already, people owning at BWV/BCV are probably staying there. It’s just an amazing location that makes little sense to trade out.
I have 70pts at BWV and getting a BWV view as part of a split stay is the main reason i got it.