Debate: Where's the Outcry for HIS Free Speech ?

[kbeverina]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Well, part of my original point was simply that it's just amazing that the same people that were all for the kid on that other thread wearing his condemnation of gays on his sleeve (so to speak) without retribution from his school aren't up in arms to protect this teacher and his students from punishment by theirs.

Hmmm...wonder if it has anything to do with the message that was being delivered ?

Nah...couldn't be that

Seriously, though....the fact that incidents like this are becoming fairly commonplace is actually frightening to my freedom loving soul

Why make judgments like this?

Personally, I never even saw "that other thread" you're talking about. This fast-paced board makes it a little more difficult to keep up and to read all of the debates posted. You didn't even let this one get to page two before you posted the above. I'm sure there are plenty on "that other thread" who hadn't seen this one.

 

[MHopkins2]

Originally posted by N.Bailey
If I was her mother, I would absolutely be destroying her work!

***? Why? That's disturbing, to say the least.

 

[Trinity721]

I don't even know where to begin! We encourage our children to create, to become educated and to have their own opinions, whether or not others agree with them... this just seems like these fanatical people are taking things to an extreme and literally shooting this poor girl down. How many kids these days even keep up with current world events besides what they see on MTV news??? Maybe she was misguided, maybe she was just angry, or maybe she really understands the current issues and this is just how she feels. But the way her principal reacted was out the line, and I don't think she should destroy her work. I'm with her mom on that. That's just ridiculous... even if she destroyed it, wouldn't it still be in her head? couldnt' she just write it down again in her diary or something, and no one would know? What are they going to do, go into her computer and make sure it's in her recycle bin???? I guess we should not think of it as freedom of speech, but rather Freedom of speech... with the exception of ______ (fill in the blanks at your convenience).

 

[N.Bailey]

Originally posted by MHopkins2
***? Why? That's disturbing, to say the least.

As I said on the other thread, you can raise you're children anyway you see fit, and I'll raise mine how I see fit. I doubt I'll ever be in a situation like that though, because I wouldn't allow that kind of brainwashing to go on in my home.

 

[treesinger]

Hold the phone people! Things got a little wacko with the Principal, but not as wacko as it seems. Firing the teacher was way off base, and the mot egregious of the events. The poem that was read live was objected to by the Principal and a military liason with him. Later, they had someone read a poem that ran counter to the original poem while raising a flag. While a bit too far on the dramatic side, it did serve to balance things IMO. Both sides were thusly represented.

Tearing down posters? Well, as long as certain posters were not allowed to be posted because of content, then this was plain wrong. But if everyone had equal opportunity to express different views and they were shown in a balanced way, then taking them all down could be argued as removing BOTH points of view. Unfortunately we don't have the facts about that incident to accurately accuse anything.

Yes, there is smoke here, but not much of a fire.

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by N.Bailey
As I said on the other thread, you can raise you're children anyway you see fit, and I'll raise mine how I see fit. I doubt I'll ever be in a situation like that though, because I wouldn't allow that kind of brainwashing to go on in my home.

I think we were thinking that you were saying that ANY sensible parent would destroy that poetry, not just YOU as a parent. I thought you were condemning any parent who would let that go on. But if you as a parent want to destroy your childrens work, that's your decision. I disagree with you, but that doesn't really matter. Your family, your rules your life.

 

[N.Bailey]

No, I meant my child actually children in particular. My statement was not a statement that I thought parents everywhere should destroy their child's work.

As for the poem, hmmmm, what is the occupation of the mother? This poem sounds to me like the rantings of a person who is angry about the amount of money a teacher makes. Now, I don't know about your community, but in my town, if you want to be a teacher, you sub for many, many years before you're ever offered a position. To me, that doesn't sound like teacher's here are unsatisfied with the pay, benefits, schedules. Maybe every other place in America is different than here? I dunno! I am pretty sure however that her mother knew around about what money she'd be making when she chose her field of study. If she didn't however, I'm CERTAIN she knew what it was when she interviewed for her position. Again, I don't know about you, but if I didn't like what I was being offered, I would find another position elsewhere. OK, so the mother takes the job, if down the road, I didn't like what I was making, I would look for another job, not keep that one and complain that I'm underpaid.

I might be jumping to conclusions about this child somehow miraculously coming to a conclusion on her on that teachers are so underpaid, but I have my doubts.

Explain to me how her mother would be a better teacher if she were paid more too?

I'm sure this mother was in school for the past 3 years getting the education to teach and she's just now going into her profession. How else could George Bush take all the blame?

Oh, I forgot, he's to blame for everything you don't like in this world!

Just to clarify, the you in this whole post is no YOU in particular.

Bottom line though, the principle was still out of line IMO. I don't agree with what was said, but this child had every right to say it.

 

[MHopkins2]

Originally posted by N.Bailey
As I said on the other thread, you can raise you're children anyway you see fit, and I'll raise mine how I see fit. I doubt I'll ever be in a situation like that though, because I wouldn't allow that kind of brainwashing to go on in my home.

Hey, if you want to be the kind of parent who would DESTROY A CHILD'S WORK, knock yourself out. Who am I to judge?

(Oy.)

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by JimB.
Ok, I know this is drifting OT, but since you asked...........................................
www.quebecoislibre.org/020119-5.htm
www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v5n2/homepage.html
www.mndaily.com/daily/1999/02/ 02/editorial_opinions/oo0202/
www.etherzone.com/2002/kali101702.shtml
www.pngusa.net/~mjwrose/rightminded/ political_correctness.htm
www.fff.org/freedom/0692b.asp - 23k - Jun 3, 2004
www.forerunner.com/ forerunner/X0369_P.C.__the_Coming_Cul.html
www.sillysports.com/2000freespeech.htm
home.uchicago.edu/~sadavis1/freespeech.html
www.telusplanet.net/public/fellis/SACPA.html
www.themarksman.com/pc.html
www.townhall.com/columnists/johnleo/jl20040412.shtml
www.manhattan-institute.org/html/ _ftcom-political_correctness.htm - 19k
dailybeacon.utk.edu/issues/v84/n4/op-carson.4v.html
www.sptimes.com/2004/02/08/Columns/ On_campus__free_speec.shtml
wildcat.arizona.edu/papers/97/63/03_3.html
www.citybeat.com/1999-07-22/statehouse.shtml

and there are 27,900 entries on Google for "political correctness" +"free speech".

No doubt at least 1 or 2 duplications in there however...........

Ok....Do any of these examples actually show a real case, or is it all hypothetical ranting by pople upset by "political correctness" ? Again, you claimed hundreds of incidents of this happening, so I don't think a bunch of articles about the evils of PC-ness exactly qualify as people actually having their right to free speech taken away.

 

[Pyg Me]

Originally posted by Tinkerbutt
This country is becoming a very scary place. I hope this nonsense ends soon.

"Becoming?" There has alway been stories like this, and there always will be. Be thankful you live in a country where this is brought to light.

BTW, the prinicpal overstepped his bounds.

 

[Pyg Me]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Well, part of my original point was simply that it's just amazing that the same people that were all for the kid on that other thread wearing his condemnation of gays on his sleeve (so to speak) without retribution from his school aren't up in arms to protect this teacher and his students from punishment by theirs.

Hmmm...wonder if it has anything to do with the message that was being delivered ?

Nah...couldn't be that

Seriously, though....the fact that incidents like this are becoming fairly commonplace is actually frightening to my freedom loving soul

Just for the record, can you name one please?

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by Pyg Me
Just for the record, can you name one please?

Name one what ? One incident ?

Well, there was the kid out west that had the secret service called on him for drawing a political cartoon.

Then there were the three teachers in New Mexico that were suspended for posting anti-war material in their classrooms.

And those are just off the top of my head, without doing any research at all.

If you mean "name one poster" that was on the other thread....I don't think I will start naming names...read both threads and you can figure it out for yourself.

 

[richiebaseball]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Well, part of my original point was simply that it's just amazing that the same people that were all for the kid on that other thread wearing his condemnation of gays on his sleeve (so to speak) without retribution from his school aren't up in arms to protect this teacher and his students from punishment by theirs.

Hmmm...wonder if it has anything to do with the message that was being delivered ?

Nah...couldn't be that

Seriously, though....the fact that incidents like this are becoming fairly commonplace is actually frightening to my freedom loving soul

Originally posted by wvrevy
I think the problem is, you are all assuming that "freedom of speech" extends to the classroom, and as someone has already pointed out, it doesn't. Anything that could potentially disrupt the classroom setting can be viewed as unacceptable, and the offending student can be removed. He would no more have the right to shout the n-word at the top of his lungs...and for the exact same reason: it would disrupt the learning atmosphere.

What? These posts seem to contradict each other. It's almost like you're saying "Hey, if you agree with me you're okay. If not, yer outta here". Curious.

Then again, I could be misreading them.

Just one man's opinion.

Richard

 

[faithinkarma]

N.Bailey

You seem to be saying that the fact that there are teachers, means they are satisfied with their pay. I happen to believe that good teachers are born, not made. They are for the most part dedicated individuals who carry a workload few of us can imagine.

There is a huge difference between teaching and many other occupations. That diffence being that teachers care passionately about the product ( students ) with which they are dealing. And, believe it or not, that makes many people go into the field despite knowing they will be underpaid and underappreciated.

It's very easy to say go look for another job. Many do. And thus the pool of excellent teachers grows smaller and smaller. And that hurts the children directly.

Of course teachers are angry. How could they not be? Their work grows more difficult with each pasing year, and yet society clearly says their work is of less value than most other jobs they could get with the same level of education.

Sorry for going off topic, I just could not let this criticism of teachers go unchallenged.

 

[jrydberg]

There is a huge difference between teaching and many other occupations. That diffence being that teachers care passionately about the product ( students ) with which they are dealing.

I would say this is the difference between an excellent worker and an average worker. It has very little to do with a particular profession. I am passionate about my work and thus, the end result is a quality product.

 

[faithinkarma]

Originally posted by jrydberg
I would say this is the difference between an excellent worker and an average worker. It has very little to do with a particular profession. I am passionate about my work and thus, the end result is a quality product.

You are right. I overstated for brevity. What I meant is that any profession where you work with people, particularly children, is different. And I was comparing teaching to jobs of a similar pay scale. As I said, many other occupations, not all. I do suspect many, possible most, people are not passionate about their work at all. And if offered a better paying job, they would leave. I think many teachers keep teaching despite the low pay, and to say they stay because they are satisfied is just incorrect. Many who stay do so because they are dedicated to their profession.

If you put yourself in the place of a young person selecting a career. You know if you go into teaching, you will earn less than if you did otherwise. And yet, you choose teaching. Why would anyone deliberately select a profession that society tells us deserves a lower pay scale? And how many other professions are there where you would have to compare two different career paths and choose one, knowing it would mean significantly less money?

 

[jrydberg]

There are significant reasons for teachers getting a lower salary than other professionals.

First, there are several disciplines in teaching that really do not have a private sector alternative (or not a higher paying one).

Second, teachers have approximately three months of the year off. What other profession gives 13 weeks vacation? Granted teachers who are passionate about their work probably do a significant amount of preparation in their time off (my mom was a teacher and my brother is a teacher). But in my experience, teachers are no more or less likely to be passionate about their work than the general population.

 

[TIGGERSMOM]

First the prinicpal was out of line for firing the Teacher and I would think that witholding his credentials would be a criminal act.

I am not a huge ACLU fan but this is for once the right cause for them.

As far as reading their poetry - ther is always cable access. Reaches a wider audience, they have control and there is no censorship other than nudity.

So as long as they don't read there poems naked they can go to town.

 

[kazzie]

I feel these actions are scary,very very worying,I'm glad to see that it is concerning all of you.Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom to 'toe the line'.

If the girl who wrote the poem were my daughter I would be very proud of her.Proud I had raised a child who could think and feel for herself and could articulate in that powerful way.

It's to be commended she is interested in politics and is socially aware.In the UK we have whats known as 'voter apathy' in young people and that they are 'not engaged' with politics and social issues.

 

[Pyg Me]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Name one what ? One incident ?

Well, there was the kid out west that had the secret service called on him for drawing a political cartoon.

Then there were the three teachers in New Mexico that were suspended for posting anti-war material in their classrooms.

And those are just off the top of my head, without doing any research at all.

If you mean "name one poster" that was on the other thread....I don't think I will start naming names...read both threads and you can figure it out for yourself.

Name one poster, was my request.

You can not assert that the examples you gave above were the "same people."

I dont think anyone on the board was for one position and not the other.