{Debate} Pro-Choice Catholics Told to Confess

[beattyfamily]

Originally posted by dennis99ss
Why these bishops want to do this at this time is beyond me, when the current administration is ant-catholic, or at least, not pro-catholic, and a catholic candidate is on the ticket.

It's simple, he's a "Catholic" who is blatantly going against the Church on his stand on abortion and then continuing to recieve Communion (quite publicly, I might add). He is snubbing his nose at the Church.

 

[beattyfamily]

The OP is touching on more than one subject and there are 3 different Bishop's quoted.

There's the subject of whether you (as a Catholic) should vote for John Kerry who is a pro-abortion Catholic.

There's the subject of Kerry continuing to receive Communion even though he is pro-abortion.

Then there's the subject of if you should receive Communion after voting for Kerry.

I agree with the fact that you should not receive Communion if you are not in good standing with the Church or have sinned and not gone to Confession. If you are completely against the Church's teachings/doctrines and publicly doing things against those teachings/doctrines (as in Kerry, voting for abortion), then you should not receive Communion. Respect the Church and do what is right.

I do not agree, however, that you need to confess or not receive Communion if you voted for Kerry (of course I won't be voting for him anyway...yuck!). I think as Catholics we need to weigh our options and do what we think is best. Both candidates I'm sure have beliefs or have voted in a way that is against the Church.

One major difference between Catholic and other Christians is that we believe that Communion is in fact Jesus so you must be without sin (having confessed) AND be in good standing to be able to receive Communion. It is very sacried...and not just bread and wine.

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by auntpolly
That's so weird. My MIL's priest noticed she never went to communion and talked to her about it -- she told him she didn't think she could go after her divorce. He said, "Of course you can go unless you remarry without an annulment." Now she goes every week. What do you think that's all about?

Because the Bible says that any man or woman who divorces the other, except for reasons of sexual immorality, and then marries another, commits adultery. Hence the creation of annulments, to counter the fact that they were married at all.

Personally, I don't get annulments. It's almost like, "We weren't married, j/k God!"

Matthew 19
8He said to them, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality,[1] and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery."

 

[auntpolly]

treesinger and blueskies -- so you are in favor of the death penalty? (Maybe I'm misunderstanding -- let me know). If you are, aren't you doing just what I'm doing and choosing the person's views you like to defend? I read what blueskies posted and I think, "But the Pope says differently". And according to what Kristy posted the church is pretty much finding capital punishment increasingly indefensible.

I adimit it, I've always been against the death penalty and so I will choose to quote the Pope.

Please don't take this as an attack, I'm just finding this interesting, and I really want to make sure I understand your position.

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by beattyfamily
It's simple, he's a "Catholic" who is blatantly going against the Church on his stand on abortion and then continuing to recieve Communion (quite publicly, I might add). He is snubbing his nose at the Church.

The church is quite clear that abortion is abhorrent and against God. Kerry has decided that the church is wrong by being pro-choice. Therefore he is not a Catholic in good standing.

I don't see what is so complicated here.

 

[auntpolly]

Originally posted by treesinger
Because the Bible says that any man or woman who divorces the other, except for reasons of sexual immorality, and then marries another, commits adultery. Hence the creation of annulments, to counter the fact that they were married at all.

But the earlier post said that communion was to be denied divorced people -- or did I read it wrong?

Oops! She said, "divorced and remarried". Sorry - I misunderstood.

 

[beattyfamily]

Originally posted by treesinger
The church is quite clear that abortion is abhorrent and against God. Kerry has decided that the church is wrong by being pro-choice. Therefore he is not a Catholic in good standing.

I don't see what is so complicated here.

Thanks! Seems so uncomplicated to me too!

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by auntpolly
treesinger and blueskies -- so you are in favor of the death penalty? (Maybe I'm misunderstanding -- let me know). If you are, aren't you doing just what I'm doing and choosing the person's views you like to defend? I read what blueskies posted and I think, "But the Pope says differently". And according to what Kristy posted the church is pretty much finding capital punishment increasingly indefensible.

I adimit it, I've always been against the death penalty and so I will choose to quote the Pope.

Please don't take this as an attack, I'm just finding this interesting, and I really want to make sure I understand your position.

Well, I'm not even Catholic, so what the Pope says matters naught to me personally. But I believe that only God is allowed to take life. I am against the death penalty. But sometimes we have to make weighted decisions. Abortion is the death of an innocent. Capital punishment is the taking of a convicted criminal. Likely someone who took another's life. The two states of being are greatly separate. So, between the 2 candidates, Bush has a "less sinful" agenda. Also, Bush, if he wins, will likely get to replace TWO Supreme Court Justices. Once that happens, Roe v Wade will be out the door. Score one for saving the innocents.

A question: Is Kerry pro-choice but against the death penalty? If so, it seems odd that he would allow the killing of innocents, but the saving of convicted criminals. That's sad.

 

[auntpolly]

Originally posted by treesinger
The church is quite clear that abortion is abhorrent and against God. Kerry has decided that the church is wrong by being pro-choice. Therefore he is not a Catholic in good standing.

I don't see what is so complicated here.

But in the end, it boils down to a couple of Bishops who want to punish people who want to vote for anyone who is not anti-abortion -- and the vast majority who don't want to tell people who to vote for nor do the want to mix politics with communion.

 

[treesinger]

Another wuestion: Where in the Bible is there any provision made for annulments? Was there such a thing before the Catholic church instituted it?

 

[auntpolly]

Originally posted by treesinger
Another wuestion: Where in the Bible is there any provision made for annulments? Was there such a thing before the Catholic church instituted it?

I really don't know the answer to that -- but plenty of people from churches who believe every word in the Bible is true (Catholics don't) get divorced. How do they reconcile that?

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by auntpolly
But in the end, it boils down to a couple of Bishops who want to punish people who want to vote for anyone who is not anti-abortion -- and the vast majority who don't want to tell people who to vote for nor do the want to mix politics with communion.

It seems to me that politics ARE important...from Catholic.com

http://www.catholic.com/library/voters_guide.asp

On most issues that come before voters or legislators, a Catholic can take one side or the other and not act contrary to his faith. Most matters do not have a "Catholic position."

But some issues are so key, so elemental, that only one position accords with the teaching of the Christian gospel. No one endorsing the wrong side of these subjects can be said to act in accord with the Church's moral norms.

This voter's guide identifies five "non-negotiable" issues and helps you narrow down the list of acceptable candidates, whether they are running for national, state, or local offices.

Candidates who endorse or promote any of the five non-negotiables should be considered to have disqualified themselves from holding public office, and you should not vote for them. You should make your choice from among the remaining candidates.


YOUR ROLE AS A CATHOLIC VOTER


Catholics have a moral obligation to promote the common good through the exercise of their voting privileges (cf. CCC 2240). It is not just civil authorities who have responsibility for a country. "Service of the common good require citizens to fulfill their roles in the life of the political community" (CCC 2239). This means citizens should participate in the political process at the ballot box.

But voting cannot be arbitrary. "A well-formed Christian conscience does not permit one to vote for a political program or an individual law that contradicts the fundamental contents of faith and morals" (CPL 4).

Some things always are wrong, and no one may vote in favor of them, directly or indirectly. Citizens vote in favor of these evils if they vote in favor of candidates who propose to advance them. Thus, Catholics should not vote for anyone who intends to push programs or laws that are intrinsically evil.


THE FIVE NON-NEGOTIABLE ISSUES


These five issues are called non-negotiable because they concern actions that are always morally wrong and must never be promoted by the law. It is a serious sin to endorse or promote any of these actions, and no candidate who really wants to advance the common good will support any of the five non-negotiables.

1. Abortion

The Church teaches that, regarding a law permitting abortions, it is "never licit to obey it, or to take part in a propaganda campaign in favor of such a law, or to vote for it" (EV 73). Abortion is the intentional and direct killing of an innocent human being, and therefore it is a form of homicide.

The child is always an innocent party, and no law may permit the taking of his life. Even when a child is conceived through rape or incest, the fault is not the child's, who should not suffer death for others' sins.

So, you may disagree, but that would make you a Catholic not in good standing. And those people may be denied Communion. Kerry's denial of Communion is right along the teaching of the Catholic Church.

 

[Cruise04]

As a person who personally went through an annulment - I can't answer that question about it being a thing before the Catholic church instituted it but I can tell you - it is a very long and drawn out process that makes you truly think about why you divorced and why you want to remarry. It makes you take a long hard look at your past life (premarriage) and your current life as well as your future life (remarriage). I did a lot of crying, a lot of reconciling, and a lot of forgiveness of my past. I was in a spot that I wasn't sure how I truly felt about God and being Catholic. It put me back in a place that I truly needed to be and made me feel much better about myself.

As far as it being a note to God that I was just kidding about being married - no, that's not what it's meant to be. But the big question that has come into light recently (in the last 10-15 years) has been if you have children and are asking for annulment - isn't it like saying you had children out of marriage??? Some people think yes, some think no. To me it wasn't a question at all or a tale telling me that I don't love my kid or shouldn't love my kid.

 

[auntpolly]

Originally posted by treesinger
It seems to me that politics ARE important...from Catholic.com

http://www.catholic.com/library/voters_guide.asp



So, you may disagree, but that would make you a Catholic not in good standing. And those people may be denied Communion. Kerry's denial of Communion is right along the teaching of the Catholic Church.

I guess you didn't read the article I posted about the task force of cardinals. I'm not the one who decided these things -- they did. Are all of those bishops in bad standing?

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by auntpolly
I guess you didn't read the article I posted about the task force of cardinals. I'm not the one who decided these things -- they did. Are all of those bishops in bad standing?

From your post...

"No one should mistake our task force's reservations about refusing communion or public calls to refrain from communion as ignoring or excusing those who clearly contradict Catholic teaching in their public roles,'' the interim report said. Still, the task force urged "not penalties'' but renewed efforts "to teach clearly, advocate effectively, organize and mobilize Catholic laity and to engage, persuade and challenge Catholic politicians to act on the moral teaching of our church.''

ALL Catholic authorities should be speaking out about pro-choice candidates per this article, and it doesn't clearly condemn refusing communion. They say it MAY be unwise and unproductive. They didn't say "don't do it".

 

[wvrevy]

As usual, the right is trying to hi-jack the issue. Since when did being "pro choice" mean you were "pro abortion" ? I am ABSOLUTELY for a woman's right to choose....and would absolutely throw a fit if my girlfriend (before marriage), wife, or daughter (in, oh, say 50 years or so) decided she wanted to have an abortion. I'd do everything in my power to talk her out of it. I HATE the idea of abortion....I just hate the idea of the government regulating medical procedurees and telling a woman what she can or can't do with her body even more.

 

[auntpolly]

Originally posted by treesinger
From your post...



ALL Catholic authorities should be speaking out about pro-choice candidates per this article, and it doesn't clearly condemn refusing communion. They say it MAY be unwise and unproductive. They didn't say "don't do it".

I never said it did! I just said it's only a couple who are doing it. The others are very wise. Their reasoning is my reasoning. If you want to vote for someone based only on the abortion issue, of course, you are free to do that. But I really have other things I need to look at and consider important-- as a Catholic, even.

And yes, thank you! THey said it may be unwise and unproductive. And indeed it may!

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by wvrevy
As usual, the right is trying to hi-jack the issue. Since when did being "pro choice" mean you were "pro abortion" ? I am ABSOLUTELY for a woman's right to choose....and would absolutely throw a fit if my girlfriend (before marriage), wife, or daughter (in, oh, say 50 years or so) decided she wanted to have an abortion. I'd do everything in my power to talk her out of it. I HATE the idea of abortion....I just hate the idea of the government regulating medical procedurees and telling a woman what she can or can't do with her body even more.

Abortion is too polarizing to be sitting on the fence. And abortion is not about women, it is about unborn children. If you car to have the abortion debate, please start another thread. I'm sure the CB will just LOVE it.

The Catholic church says that abortion is wrong. Period. Anyone who says that they defend the rights of women to have abortions, even if they abhor the practice themselves, still supports laws that allow this Cathoilic sin to be practiced. That is against church teachings.

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by auntpolly
I never said it did! I just said it's only a couple who are doing it. The others are very wise. Their reasoning is my reasoning. If you want to vote for someone based only on the abortion issue, of course, you are free to do that. But I really have other things I need to look at and consider important-- as a Catholic, even.

And yes, thank you! THey said it may be unwise and unproductive. And indeed it may!

I'm not saying vote FOR someone because of an issue. I think it important to evaluate all candidates on all positions. But the church is VERY clear in saying that supporting someone who would allow laws that permit abortion is against the church.

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by auntpolly
I never said it did! I just said it's only a couple who are doing it. The others are very wise. Their reasoning is my reasoning. If you want to vote for someone based only on the abortion issue, of course, you are free to do that. But I really have other things I need to look at and consider important-- as a Catholic, even.

And yes, thank you! THey said it may be unwise and unproductive. And indeed it may!

You call, the others wise. I call them cowards for not standing up for their faith and saying that the church teachings are unchangeable. The Catholic church should not care how popular it is. If the church stands for something, then the Cathoilic authority should back it up.