{Debate} Pro-Choice Catholics Told to Confess

[nuke]

Originally posted by princesstommi
Random thoughts on this issue:

- I am Catholic

- I do not believe that following all the rules of a man made church is my one path to Heaven.

- I worship in a way that brings me comfort and that I feel brings me closer to God

- I don't necissarily agree with all the *rules* and laws of the United States, but it doesn't make me any less of an American...same thing for me with the church.

- I truly have a huge problem with the Church if across the board they are trying to play with politics. If they are so outspoken about this, allowing people to have choices and free will, you know, like God did, but aren't speaking out against the other candidate for his pro-death penalty and war policies...I have a problem.

- It is my responsibility to reconcile my personal feelings about the Church doctrines I may or may not agree with. No one else, especially non-Catholics with opinions against the church, has any bearing on what I feel about my association with the Catholic church. But I'm secure in my faith, and in my politics. If they are *wrong*, I'm the only one who will have to answer for them in the end.

I agree 100%. I will have a HUGE problem with my parish if my pastor gets up and tells me to vote republican or democrat. They need to stay out of politics-period!

 

[Bichon Barb]

Here is my church's stance on abortion:

The Evangelical Lutheran of Church in America (ELCA)
is a union of three smaller Lutheran denominations which merged in 1988. Each had different views on on abortion. In 1990, the ELCA adopted a statement that accepts abortion but only as a "last resort" in the most extreme circumstances. The statement goes on to say that it opposes abortion ist except in the cases of "clear threat to the life of the woman", "extreme fetal abnormality" incompatible with life, and in cases of rape and incest. Beyond these cases "this church neither supports nor opposes" other abortion-restricting legislation. At the ELCA's 1997 convention, a resolution to restrict ELCA funding of abortions to the three cases stated above was rejected 70%-30%. The ELCA funds elective abortions in the church’s health care coverage for pastors and professional church workers, and some Lutheran-affiliated hospital perform elective abortions.

For other religions, see http://www.spiritrestoration.org/Church/Denominational-stand-on-the-issue-of-abortion.htm

 

[jrydberg]

Originally posted by auntpolly
Sorry, everyone kept responding like they hadn't read it. You said earlier that if the church adopts a policy we have to abide by it, and it's very clear that no such churchwide policy has been adopted. THe reasons are good ones. The church should not be getting caught up in this political battle, and there may be other reasons besides the abortion issue that one might choose a candidate for. This is what the task force said, and I'm glad for it.

Fair enough. Actually, I don't think I disagree with you other than the bit about the priests and their opinions. That article made it clear that it's in the hands of the bishops. Personally, I think the Catholic church should be very hesitant about venturing into political frays. Unless they're going to be completely consistent in the application of such things (unlikely), they're opening themselves up to a world of criticism and likely declining Sunday attendance.

 

[Blue Skies]

I am a bit shocked by the level of anti-Catholicism on this thread. It makes my heart heavy to read some of the replies.

It has been mentioned that the Catholic Church is against the death penalty – so Catholics cannot vote Democrat or Republican. An important point to remember is that with abortion we are talking about the murder of an innocent baby – and with the death penalty there is an assumption of guilt. The Catholic Church does not hold these two as equal.

An article by canon lawyer R. Michael Dunnigan, states:
“Perhaps the most authoritative papal pronouncement in defense of capital punishment was the profession of faith that Pope Innocent III prescribed in 1208 for a group of Waldensians returning to the Church. This profession of faith included the following affirmation: “Concerning the secular power we declare that without mortal sin it is possible to exercise a judgment of blood as long as one proceeds to bring punishment not in hatred but in judgment, not incautiously but advisedly” [DS 795/425]. The 16 th century Catechism of the Council of Trent taught that the civil authority is the “legitimate avenger of crime,” and that, when it executes criminals, it acts not in defiance of the Fifth Commandment, but rather in obedience to it. More recently, Popes Leo XIII and Pius XII have affirmed the legitimacy of capital punishment.”
The complete article may be read at:

www.st-joseph-foundation.org/newsletter/lead.php?document=2003/21-4

It’s important to remember that the Church does not ask its members to vote for a particular party or candidate. It asks us to vote according to our conscience – a well formed conscience, according to Catholic teaching.

From Catholic answers:
"’A well-formed Christian conscience does not permit one to vote for a political program or an individual law that contradicts the fundamental contents of faith and morals’” (CPL 4). Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, Doctrinal Notes on Some Questions Regarding the Participation of Catholics in Political Life

”Some things always are wrong, and no one may vote in favor of them, directly or indirectly. Citizens vote in favor of these evils if they vote in favor of candidates who propose to advance them. Thus, Catholics should not vote for anyone who intends to push programs or laws that are intrinsically evil.”



I applaud Archbishop Burke and the stance he has taken in upholding the Catholic faith. I agree with what others have already said – if you don’t believe the Catholic Church is the church instituted by Jesus Christ – why would you ever join and say the creed every Sunday in mass? My sister lives in the La Crosse diocese – and most people there are very sad to see Archbishop Burke go. The people in St Louis are so lucky to have him as their Shepard. He is a good example in the Shepard that tries to bring the “lost” sheep home.

CEDmom – I am 32 and I believe ALL of the doctrines of the Catholic Church. Yes ALL of them. (Most of my family and friends do as well).

I am quite happy taking the road less traveled.

Melissa

 

[Aristocath]

Okay, let me start by saying I did not read this whole thread yet. But I am Catholic and I was very offended by some of the responses I read. My own belief is that I will try to obey the rules of the Church. However, God also gave me free will to make choices for myself. I don't believe that I am a bad Catholic because I am pro-choice or because I use an "unapproved" method of birth control. In the end, this is between God and myself, not what an organized religion says God wants for us.

That being said, I am very happy as a Catholic. Should I leave the Catholic church because I don't follow all the rules? No. Would I find another church that entirely fit my belief system? No. I am a Democrat, too, but that doesn't mean I stand 100% behind the party platform. If that is the case, Nancy Reagan should no longer be a Republican because she wants to get rid of the restrictions Bush placed on stem cell research.

I understand this is a public forum but I am shocked by the anti-Catholic responses from so many people. I find it very sad.

 

[auntpolly]

Originally posted by Blue Skies


It has been mentioned that the Catholic Church is against the death penalty – so Catholics cannot vote Democrat or Republican. An important point to remember is that with abortion we are talking about the murder of an innocent baby – and with the death penalty there is an assumption of guilt. The Catholic Church does not hold these two as equal.

You are right about abortion weighing in a little heavier than the death penalty, but the tide may be turning on this. Pope John Paul II has been a very vocal anti-death penalty advocate, along with many bishops and cardinals. From American Catholic. org: "<i>The Catholic Church opposes the death penalty in nearly all cases, and Pope John Paul II often speaks out against capital punishment. </i>" The Pope hasn't made an infallible declaration about it, but it is his opinion, and I don't think this opinion will drift away after his death. I've heard from many people that the next Pope will be very much like Pope John Paul II because of the people he has placed in important positions around him.

 

[beattyfamily]

Originally posted by 6_Time_Momma
I know several who agree with the all the Church dogmas and teachings. You probably know a few and just don't realize it.

Me too! I know many and I'm one of them, obviously.

 

[Sugardimples]

Struggling to remain in the Catholic Church has been a major part of my life. It look until last year for me to finally say, "that's it. I can't do this any more". The issue that finally pushed me to that point was an encyclical that was released during Holy Week reminding pastors that divorced and remarried Catholics should not be given communion. I finally saw that I did not want to be part of a church that was excluding ANYBODY.

I only wish that there was a ceremony to make my decision "official"..I'm sure that I and millions of others who have left this institution as still in the count of Catholics. I want no part of it.

 

[6_Time_Momma]

Originally posted by beattyfamily
Me too! I know many and I'm one of them, obviously.

As am I, hence the little winky guy.

 

[auntpolly]

Originally posted by beattyfamily
Me too! I know many and I'm one of them, obviously.

I ask this only because I am curious and I don't want to put you on the spot, but what do you do about something like the death penalty? Do you make up your own mind because no infallible declaration has been made, or do you listen to what the Pope has to say.

 

[tastelikecandy]

Originally posted by Toby'sFriend
I'm not sure how you could ever completely seperate the two. My church life and religious belief go far toward shaping the moral values that I believe in and wish for my leaders to possess.

I'm not Catholic so I really can't comment on the withholding of Communion. My own religion never withholds Communion from any professed sinner who wishes to partake.

Not Catholic either, non-denominational and I am the same way. In my mind when I vote, I choose to believe that God is leading me to that decision and clearly God does not believe in abortion(well, at least not the God I serve), therefore, I would not vote for anyone who is pro-choice but I don't think a religion should dictate to it's members what they should and should not do.

God is not a religion, he is our father and whatever decisions we make are ours to deal with when the time comes. God forgives and therefore everyone is worthy through Jesus to partake in communion.

 

[auntpolly]

Originally posted by Sugardimples
encyclical that was released during Holy Week reminding pastors that divorced and remarried Catholics should not be given communion. I finally saw that I did not want to be part of a church that was excluding ANYBODY.

That's so weird. My MIL's priest noticed she never went to communion and talked to her about it -- she told him she didn't think she could go after her divorce. He said, "Of course you can go unless you remarry without an annulment." Now she goes every week. What do you think that's all about?

 

[6_Time_Momma]

Originally posted by auntpolly
I ask this only because I am curious and I don't want to put you on the spot, but what do you do about something like the death penalty? Do you make up your own mind because no infallible declaration has been made, or do you listen to what the Pope has to say.

The Church does have an official stance, though not an infallible declaration, regarding the death penalty. This is found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and states:

"2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically non-existent."


When in doubt about the Church's stance on something, it is very often found in the Catechism. So, generally speaking I listen to how the Pope feels and why and whether it is consistent with previous Chuirch teachings. For example, the Church has always taught about the sacrity of life, criminals being no exception. So, the stnad in the Catechism is consistent with previous teachings.

 

[auntpolly]

Thanks Kristy -- that actually sounds pretty reasonable to me!

 

[Cruise04]

I didn't read this whole thread but as with minniecarousel - guess I'm going to hell as well!!! I'm catholic and I will probably go to hell anyway - I believe in gay/lesbian rights and it's their life, let them live it; I believe a woman should have a choice, especially in rape/assault situations.

 

[wvrevy]

At the same time, shouldn't the Catholic Church also state that you should not vote for a candidate that advocates using birth control of any kind ?

This stinks to high heaven of a church official using his pulpit to advocate in favor of one candidate while attempting to make it seem as if he were merely stating church doctrine.

(Apologies if that theory has been stated on this thread previously...I was too angry to read the whole thing )

 

[Bob Slydell]

Where do I turn in my Catholic Church membership card? Apparently, from reading this thread, I'm not a perfect Catholic, thus I must leave the church, right?

 

[dennis99ss]

As a catholic, I see great hypocrisy here with the stands these bishops are taking. They have taken one issue, and placed it above all others. They have decided, as a man, what is more important to God, abortion, or freedom, charity, service, humility, compassion, etc. They have determined that abortion, above all, deserves to be placed on a level akin to a mortal sin, while at the same time, implicitly determining that other sins are not on the same level. Of course, as it is not church doctrine, whether you commit a mortal sin depends on where you live. Sounds more like a baptist church than a catholic.

For example, if one candidate supports abortion rights, but is strongly opposed to cutting funding for the poor, for homeless shelters, for children who go hungry, against the death penalty, etc. and a second candidate proposes to cut all of the funding to all social programs and, supports the death penalty, this pronouncement says it as a mortal sin to support candidate number one, but not number 2. As a result, abortion is a greater sin, a greater issue, than is the others of charity, etc.

This being said, if the bishops stance was the same on all issues, for example, if simply voting for a candidate with beliefs against the church is a mortal sin, then voting against all candidates who have beliefs against the church's doctrine, when dealing with mortal sins, should be put into place. What about the candidates who vote against(or for) race based initiatives, which tend to injure minorities. What about the candidates who support the killing of people in wars the Church deems to be unjustified? This doctrine of the few attempts to place one evil above all others, simply for political gain.

Why these bishops want to do this at this time is beyond me, when the current administration is ant-catholic, or at least, not pro-catholic, and a catholic candidate is on the ticket.

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by Blue Skies
I am a bit shocked by the level of anti-Catholicism on this thread. It makes my heart heavy to read some of the replies.

It has been mentioned that the Catholic Church is against the death penalty – so Catholics cannot vote Democrat or Republican. An important point to remember is that with abortion we are talking about the murder of an innocent baby – and with the death penalty there is an assumption of guilt. The Catholic Church does not hold these two as equal.

An article by canon lawyer R. Michael Dunnigan, states:
“Perhaps the most authoritative papal pronouncement in defense of capital punishment was the profession of faith that Pope Innocent III prescribed in 1208 for a group of Waldensians returning to the Church. This profession of faith included the following affirmation: “Concerning the secular power we declare that without mortal sin it is possible to exercise a judgment of blood as long as one proceeds to bring punishment not in hatred but in judgment, not incautiously but advisedly” [DS 795/425]. The 16 th century Catechism of the Council of Trent taught that the civil authority is the “legitimate avenger of crime,” and that, when it executes criminals, it acts not in defiance of the Fifth Commandment, but rather in obedience to it. More recently, Popes Leo XIII and Pius XII have affirmed the legitimacy of capital punishment.”
The complete article may be read at:

www.st-joseph-foundation.org/newsletter/lead.php?document=2003/21-4

It’s important to remember that the Church does not ask its members to vote for a particular party or candidate. It asks us to vote according to our conscience – a well formed conscience, according to Catholic teaching.

From Catholic answers:
"’A well-formed Christian conscience does not permit one to vote for a political program or an individual law that contradicts the fundamental contents of faith and morals’” (CPL 4). Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, Doctrinal Notes on Some Questions Regarding the Participation of Catholics in Political Life

”Some things always are wrong, and no one may vote in favor of them, directly or indirectly. Citizens vote in favor of these evils if they vote in favor of candidates who propose to advance them. Thus, Catholics should not vote for anyone who intends to push programs or laws that are intrinsically evil.”



I applaud Archbishop Burke and the stance he has taken in upholding the Catholic faith. I agree with what others have already said – if you don’t believe the Catholic Church is the church instituted by Jesus Christ – why would you ever join and say the creed every Sunday in mass? My sister lives in the La Crosse diocese – and most people there are very sad to see Archbishop Burke go. The people in St Louis are so lucky to have him as their Shepard. He is a good example in the Shepard that tries to bring the “lost” sheep home.

CEDmom – I am 32 and I believe ALL of the doctrines of the Catholic Church. Yes ALL of them. (Most of my family and friends do as well).

I am quite happy taking the road less traveled.

Melissa

Great Post! Thank you!

 

[Miss Jasmine]

Wow there are a lot of issues on this thread.

- Communion should not be held out as a reward or punishment. That to me is sad. When I take communion it is truly a sacred time for me. I am not catholic, so it is only symbolic in my church, but yet it gives me time to REALLY reflect on what Jesus did for me. There should not be any strings attached to communion. And in the case of the Holy Roman Catholic Church, there HAS ALWAYS been strings attached to communion.

- Anyone who believes in God's word and takes it literally, knows how God feels about the subject of abortion.

- These are the days of the lukewarm church. In Revelation, God talks about spitting out those with lukewarm beliefs. You cannot pick and choose what you want to believe in the Holy Bible.

- No one is infallible. We are all sinners. Thank goodness for Grace and Forgiveness.