DEBATE: Back in 1972...

[raidermatt]

Just one question....

If Disney set its resort prices low because of concerns over demand at an un-tested resort, why didn't they jack them up when high demand resulted in a 2 year waiting list to get a room?

If Disney was following the old supply and demand model, prices should have immediately soared.

But they didn't.

Clearly, there was some reason for it other than demand.

It was a strategy. Now, maybe one can't accept that it was a part of a Disney's intended value equation, but at least offer another valid reason.

 

[airlarry!]

Just when you are jaded enough to think we've discussed every topic to death, it pays to stick around and learn something new.

Sir Baron:

I noticed the same thing as I read M. DK's argument. It seemed to be walking the fence or arguing two polar opposites.

One can't argue that the CPI doesn't matter, implying that the rooms weren't as cheap back then as we think, and then argue in the same breath that management set the prices much lower than normal to attract business.

My personal take? There were probably some in the company who worried about the Florida Project. But not the kingpins. We know that because they bought thousands of acres (albeit cheap prices for 90% of them), built monorails and huge themed resorts and campgrounds and a full size Magic Kingdom all around the same time. What an investment! Every business venture has its skeptics, but the skepticism had to be much lower this time as compared to the 'crazy talk' about Uncle Walt in 1955.

And I think they priced the hotels right in line with what they thought the market could bear but with the intent on building brand loyalty through value. See, it is a two part equation. One can't set the prices as high as the market will bear...because you might get one sale but not repeat business. One must set the prices as high as one can *taking into account the need to establish brand loyalty and repeat customes*.

The proof is in the pudding. The rack rates are astronomical for the Animal Kingdom Lodge. If you belong to mousesavers.com you will see that almost no one has paid rack rates there for the last year or so. Baron's right: back then they set the price without having to worry about discounting it...now they set this dream price, and have to cut back every time people scoff at a $350 hotel room.

 

[d-r]

Originally posted by hopemax
Again, these are within the $125-$190 range of the adjusted Poly prices.

And the polly goes for $169 and $189 with codes, AP rates, Florida residents, etc. I know I've stayed at Polly for $189.

Before you say "that is with a code" I wonder where Deb Will's got those prices from 1972; the way that I've been able to look at prices back then was to look at old Disney Magazine's that we have from the early 70's. Back then, the Disney Magazine came with membership to the magic kingdom club, and so the rates in there are magic kingdom club rates. But really, we were comparing to rooms to other places off Disney property, and people get discounted rooms off disney property all the time. Most of the time that I stay somewhere else it is with a disount, whether it is a conference rate or a gov. rate or even an expedia rate. NBC news reported a few months ago that summer bookings were down at the national park resorts this year (they said it was "unheard of" during the summer).

I maintain that hotels are pretty much expensive and don't really go up at the rate of inflation. But hey, people pay a premium to stay at wdw. That's absolutely true.
DR

 

[d-r]

Hi, I've stayed at the Ritz-Carlton in Atlanta, but not the 4 seasons there. I think it was about $250 a night, but there was a conference rate going on. It is comparing apples to oranges, imho. The Ritz is really nice, of course. If you want to match it up hotel for hotel, it is absolutely better than the grand floridian. But then you don't have the magic kingdom across the lake or a monorail going by. I mean, downtown Atlanta can be a lot of fun, but it is a different thing than going to walt disney world. I've also stayed at the westin peachtree, which is a standard sort of business class hotel that is much cheaper than the ritz. Comparing the polly to the four seasons really is apples to oranges. You'll get a wonderful hotel experience at the four seasons, I'm sure, and I'm sure it is worth visiting. If you want the experience of the polly, though, you aren't going to get it at the four seasons. So you pay for what you want. If the polly isn't worth it to you, don't go there. If the four seasons is, enjoy your trip to Atlanta. If I am in Atlanta again I'd love to stay at the Ritz Carlton again, and I look forward to staying at the polly again sometime when I'm at walt disney world.

DR

Originally posted by hopemax
Ah the things you do when you aren't sleepy...

Went to travelocity, searched for a hotel in Atlanta in May 2003. There were like 90 results. Looking at the right side, in bold it gives rate ranges. The majority of the hotels listed prices of under $200.

The main exceptions the Four Seasons ($330-$550), Westin at the Airport ($179-$270), Sheraton Buckhead ($165-$265), Hyatt Regency Atlanta ($99-$330), Crown Plaza Buckhead ($159-$399), Grand Hyatt Atlanta ($110-$399), OMNI at CNN Center ($225-$375), there was another Sheraton, Hyatt and Westin, but we get the idea.

Only 2 of these top tier Atlanta hotels don't have rooms that would fall within the $125-$190. And looking at the actual 2003 Poly rates...$340-$525. And while the Poly is nice, it ain't no Four Seasons, and it's never gotten a 5 star rating. Is comparing the Atlanta Four Seasons to the Poly comparing apples to apples?

 

[JimB.]

I distinctly remember that when I stayed at the Poly in August, 1972 (oops, just dated myself there.............. ) the rates were $19, $29, $39 (+ any applicable taxes).

The buffet dinner at O'hana's was $6.95/person ( my dad about blew a gasket over that...).


Wanna' see expensive???

Check ticket prices to a NASCAR Winston Cup race. The CHEAP seats at the Daytona 500 are $100 +, and the place is a dump.

Cokes at a Jacksonville Jaguars game are $3.


I guess everything is relative, and although Disney World is no BARGAIN by any measure, it still seems to be in line with all of the other possible things I could do with my entertainment dollars.

 

[All Aboard]

Here we go again. What WDW charged for hotels in 1972 is completely and entirely meaningless. It has absolutely no connection to today's prices. None whatsoever. And applying the market basket CPI to the travel and entertainment industry is going to drive worthless results as pointed out by others.

Ultimately, the market (customer) chooses the prices in this economy, not the seller. If WDW has well-outpaced inflation, then perhaps it's a testament to the improvement of the product. That's just as solid a conclusion as "greedy management."

 

[Bstanley]

OK, thanks to the Los Angeles Public Library we have a database of menu images from down through the ages (although they tend to be LA related...).

Restaurant prices circa 1972:

Culver City -
Hamburger: $0.65 (served with Potato Chips and a Pickle
Coca-Cola : $0.15 (refills free)
Sausage and Eggs : $1.50 (served with Hash Browns)

Hollywood - Prime Rib Dinner : $6.00
(the 'Diamond Jim Brady' cut ! ;-), served with Salad, bread, corn on the cob, baked potato and dessert)

So it would appear that the people who set the prices at WDW in 1972 did indeed do exactly what Herr Baron said - they looked around at the prices in their neighborhood and set them to about the same level.

Now as to whether or not those prices were appropriate for central Florida in 1972 is best left as an exercise for the student.

 

[DisneyKidds]

OK - where to start?

See!! There you have it!! You really don’t get it, do you? Areas of ‘high demand’ have nothing whatsoever to do with Disney!! I thought you knew that!

I wouldn't exactly say that. You keep throwing out a 1972 Poly price. You also contend that the resort prices didn't go kapluew (spelling?) until Ei$ner instituted the "caste system". Hows about we do this. Let's see if we can reconstruct Poly prices from 1972 right up until today. That will give us a very good indication of how pricing evolved, and we can try to make educated conclusions from there. As Mr. gcurling pointed out (glad to see you unburied yourself Mr. G )............

What WDW charged for hotels in 1972 is completely and entirely meaningless. It has absolutely no connection to today's prices. None whatsoever. And applying the market basket CPI to the travel and entertainment industry is going to drive worthless results as pointed out by others.

...........and it really is true. No tongues. No cheeks. No giving you a hard time. It really is true. Only by analyzing how hotels prices evolved can we get anywhere. You are so tied up in what the Poly cost in 1972, but that is a snapshot. Let's see if we can view the moving picture.

As for the whole 'untested swamp' concept, I submit that WDW was different from DL. Sure, they knew the WDW parks would be a hit. They knew that the investment in WDW would pay off. However, they did not know how folks would initially respond to a Disney destination resort. Furthermore, you really didn't have a guide from DL for resort pricing. Lastly, Walt had nothing to do with the rate set for the Poly in 1972. We are back to those shades of gray again. Yes, they wanted to provide value. I'll even give you that they may have kept prices over time a little lower than other comparable resorts. However, there was likely much more that went into the decision on pricing. If we move beyond resort rates, Mr. Bstanley shows us that the Disney burger and soda, breakfast, or a buffet dinner really wasn't any cheaper. Again, let's try and see how the WDW resort prices settled out and go from there. Fair enough?

Hopemax............. I realize you didn't make any conclusions regarding resort rates. You presented the 1972 rate and inflated it. You did not go on to say that that provided any frame of reference for todays rates (but you had to have a reason for doing it, no?). However, others did jump in and assume that that proves that todays Disney rates are because Poly rates are not $125. That is simply an incorrect conclusion. Secondly, I only mentioned Atlanta in relation to your assessment that NY/DC/Boston prices were abnormal. Atlanta is not so far off. If you are comparing Atlanta to NY/DC/Boston you really should be looking at the Buckhead hotels as that would be most 'apples to apples'. I also believe that your Atlanta vs. Poly rate analysis may be incomplete. On travelocity you will get best available rate. This may or may not be rack rate. Therefore, you may not be able to compare those Atlanta prices to Poly rack rate. If you compare those Atlanta prices to Poly and CR best available rates you will find the Poly and CR may be less.

Matt...........

If Disney set its resort prices low because of concerns over demand at an un-tested resort, why didn't they jack them up when high demand resulted in a 2 year waiting list to get a room?

A couple of things. I may be willing to stipulate that Disney purposely upped the value by keeping the rates lower than comparable resorts - that they didn't follow traditional supply and demand models. However, I don't know that you can peg the 1972 rate as the baseline for an analysis. Let's see what the adjusted baseline looks like when we have a better idea of what those rates looked like from 1973 to 1983 (that would be post opening and pre Ei$ner). Even if we stipulated that WDW resort prices outpaced the CPI, we don't know when the price went askew. Baron contends it was sometime after 1984. Let's find out for sure. As I stated above, value was part of the equation, but there were likely other factors involved. We keep coming back to this resort rate thing - lets see if we can't do a complete analysis and draw some logical, supportable conclusions. Anyone have ideas on where we can find the Poly rates (and CR) by year?

Larryboy (I only use that as I hope to see Veggie Tales on Friday and have VT on the brain )............

I noticed the same thing as I read M. DK's argument. It seemed to be walking the fence or arguing two polar opposites.

Let me see if I can articulate my thinking as it is evolving. The initial opening price was low. At some point it went up. We don't know when. I believe two things could have impacted WDW resort pricing. One would be a market adjustment once the resorts were established. The second would be inflation. We need to see if those are both in play, and how they interact. Even with that, it may be possible that the Poly 1972 price is not as low as one might think. For arguments sake, let's just assume that the 1972 price was somewhat discounted as they were testing the market for a Disney destination resort. If we assume that for a moment it becomes reasonable to compare that rate inflated to today to todays discounted Poly rates. If you do that you would find the two would be in line. As I said above, we have some work to do before we can realy make sense of all of this. Until then it is all speculation and inuendo. I'll try and keep my tongue firmly planted in the center of my mouth and we can look at the objective facts, all of the objective facts. If I'm wrong I'll give you the Mea Culpa, are you guys willing to do the same?

Now, where to find the info we need.................. ah, The Professor's students! Do I smell case study on the successful building and pricing of a resort destination?

 

[hopemax]

You did not go on to say that that provided any frame of reference for todays rates (but you had to have a reason for doing it, no?).

Only, that EVERY other time anyone has posted numbers, without doing the CPI the next posters have complained that they had absolutely no idea what spending $29 in 1972 would be like spending today. Thus, I provided the adjusted numbers. I didn't think I had to explain why. Apparently I did a bad thing, and I should just not post any numbers because they have no value for anything at all.

On travelocity you will get best available rate. This may or may not be rack rate. Therefore, you may not be able to compare those Atlanta prices to Poly rack rate.

Which is why I clicked on the details, read what type it was, looking for standard rate, then went to some of the hotels actual websites and looked at the prices there, and checked that they were the standard rates.

A couple of things. I may be willing to stipulate that Disney purposely upped the value by keeping the rates lower than comparable resorts - that they didn't follow traditional supply and demand models.

Read that last line you typed, 1000 times. This is what we're saying. Not only did Walt break the normal models of what was family entertainment, he broke the traditional business models too. Back to what airlarry! said,

See, it is a two part equation. One can't set the prices as high as the market will bear...because you might get one sale but not repeat business. One must set the prices as high as one can *taking into account the need to establish brand loyalty and repeat customes*.

Walt's system generated "lifers," it allowed the company to not have to resort to sales or discounts. It cushioned WDW against economic effects like recession, and high unemployement. Did you know that between 1972 and 1980, WDW attendance increased or remained unchanged every year except 1974 and 1979? The gas shortage, put Disney into trouble, not the high unemployment and not the skyrocketing inflation.

 

[hopemax]

I have no problem digging for evidence, and I actually kind of like it. I just wish more people would help out. I have no problem searching for Poly prices from 1972-1985, but being in WA we don't get a lot of WDW brochures in antique shops, and not a lot of people from out here went to WDW at that time so I can't ask them either. The best, I can do is search the web, though I am considering writing the archives, but don't know if they will respond with the info or what. If we were going to do this, I would have asked while I was at the archives in July.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Apparently I did a bad thing, and I should just not post any numbers because they have no value for anything at all.

Sorry Hope. You did nothing wrong (as you well know ). I have this nasty tendency to think that everyone has an agenda of some sort. Bad Dk, bad DK .

Glad to see you do your homework and pay attention to the pertinent details. Very and it really helps the discussions along . On the hotel rates from 1973 to 1985, I will dig around on the internet as well - hopefully with enough of us digging we can make some real progress. Thanks.

Read that last line you typed, 1000 times. This is what we're saying. Not only did Walt break the normal models of what was family entertainment, he broke the traditional business models too.

Yes, but my comment was followed by a 'however' - isn't there always one of those .

FWIW - I happened to be on the Marriott website and I checked their full service hotels in downtown Atlanta and in Buckhead. Rack rate ranged from $275 to $310. Best available ranged from $149 to $220. Boy, I know we really can't compare other hotels to Disney, but that sure sounds a lot like current CR/Poly/WL/AKL/BW/BC/YC/GF pricing to me. Actually, CR/Poly/WL/AKL/BW/BC/YC/GF prices might even be a tad lower - and they are in the middle of the most incredible resort destination in the World . Sounds like value to me.

 

[All Aboard]

No Hopemax, you did nothing wrong. It's just when this topic rears it's head the same thing happens. Today's rates are compared to the CPI growth of 1972 prices and the same conclusions are drawn.

One could assume that some posters in this thread think that a WDW with nothing more than a handful of deluxe resorts with rooms priced at $125 a night is a wise business model to follow. That's what I disagree with.

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by gcurling

One could assume that some posters in this thread think that a WDW with nothing more than a handful of deluxe resorts with rooms priced at $125 a night is a wise business model to follow. That's what I disagree with.

...and the current model is not really great either. Sure Walt would have built more Hotels but I don't think they would be anywhere close to the current prices. Unless you talking value and moderate prices for the Deluxe experience. In the current model it seems they have currently overbuilt regular hotel rooms and I think they may be setting themselves up for the same thing with the DVC. I think many people keep glossing over the point that Walt wasn't here to bleed his customers dry like Mike is. Walt wanted and got brand loyalty from his customers by building quality and value into his products. I don't see that same drive from the current Disney. The current model is closer to strip mining or slash and burn if you ask me.

 

[raidermatt]

One could assume that some posters in this thread think that a WDW with nothing more than a handful of deluxe resorts with rooms priced at $125 a night is a wise business model to follow. That's what I disagree with.

Not I. I just think that pretty much all aspects of this model have been scrapped, which is not in WDW's best long-term interests.

 

[hopemax]

One could assume that some posters in this thread think that a WDW with nothing more than a handful of deluxe resorts with rooms priced at $125 a night is a wise business model to follow.

Not I, either. I just believe that there is a better model than what WDW is doing now. One that leads to something inbetween $125-$190 all year long and the 4 seasons /$299-$675 at the Poly, and a bunch of other things.

I feel like WDW is running on a high-risk model, like a high risk stock portfolio. Huge upside when the market is in your favor, but when it not...There's a reason financial planners don't recommend putting all your money in high-risk stocks, all the way up till retirement.

 

[All Aboard]

I'd argue that WDW has a diversified portfolio, e.g. Values and Moderates. And, the built in profit margin on the high end products to sustain the need to discount in tougher times.

I hear two things in this thread. WDW has too many hotel rooms and they charge too much for them.

A pricing model of limited supply and low prices is bad for two reasons. First, you unnecessarily give away market share to your competitors. Second, you don't harbor a lot of good will from your customers when it is almost impossible for them to get your product. Reducing supply and reducing prices will drive demand well above equilibrium. Maybe that's the way Walt would have done it, maybe not, but it makes no economic sense.

Europa and others, I still don't get the notion that Mike is bleeding the customer dry. How can that be? As I said before, the supplier chooses what to charge based on what the customer says he/she will pay. The customer is king. I won't pay $3,000 to stay in a Presidential Suite, so I don't. I will, however, gladly pay the rates that I do to stay at the Values and Moderates and even at the AKL on a recent stay. If WDW could charge more, then by all means they should.

 

[airlarry!]

M. Gcurling:

Not I, not I, not I. It is the one area of disagreement that I know of between me and Sir Baron. (if that is even what he is saying).

I will emphatically state that as a selfish, budget-seeking, cheapskate vacationer, I don't want 20 resorts on the grounds of WDW all with only 300 rooms each at $125-250 a night, all with monorail access and $50 restaurants.

But I'm not saying that's a bad business model, either.

I've always disagreed with Baron in that I believe, and I would love to see The Professor's students run this down, that WDW could operate profitably on a two tiered system of one tier with relatively expensive ($125-250) night resorts like the Poly on the monorail...with another tier of 'moderates' from $80-150 with some kind of special access (Like WL has or had with the water taxi) to the parks. In fact, it kind of looked like Disney had that in mind. The Allstars are near the AK (and should be rethemed as such perhaps?) The Caribb is near Epcot I believe...and so on and so forth. Just make them with special transportation.

The CPI is useless? Not if you think it is a two part equation to continued 95% occupancy rates. I just hate to see that either WDW overbuilt or that they priced themselves too high to withstand the 2000-2001 downturn in the economy.

 

[hopemax]

I hear two things in this thread. WDW has too many hotel rooms and they charge too much for them.

Again no. Either WDW has too many hotel rooms OR they are charging too much for them. You say low supply/low price is bad. Well, isn't high supply/high price bad too? You run a huge risk of the demand not being there and ending up with empty hotels. I'd think a high supply/low price or low supply/high price would be more stable.

I'd argue that WDW has a diversified portfolio, e.g. Values and Moderates.

And I'd argue that having a high-risk stock that is currently selling for $100, another high-risk stock current $60 and another high-risk stock at $25 is not diversification But that's not really what I want to talk about.

Just something that's tickled in the back of my mind. What do you guys think the affect of credit cards has had on the traditional market relations of supply, demand and price? The magnetic strip came into being in 1970, so when WDW opened not very people had them, or used them. The 80's & 90's changed that.

Reading a couple of articles on the web... 60% of CC holders, carry a balance and the average balance is $8,367. In the early 90's it was $3,332. The total debt rose from 173 billion to 608 billion. Now, I'm sure all of us are responsible CC users and pay off our balances every month but that doesn't seem to be the norm.

So while in the first half of the century, when prices would get to the point where the customer would walk away. Now the customer doesn't have to walk away, they can just put it on the plastic. So the prices kept going up, up, up. And now we have prices that aren't truely "what the market can bear." The market has been overextended for awhile, and not just limited to Disney, I think the whole entertainment industry is suffering. I remember last year there was NY Times article talking about how the entertainment industry was thought to be "recession proof" but this time around, not so. Maybe the whole industry is overpriced. That's why I am not placated with the "have you seen the prices at _____." Does that prove that Disney isn't expensive, or does it just prove that ____ is expensive too? I'm trying to learn more about what is really going on, not just what looks good on the surface.

Disney seems to be banking that the economy will recover and we'll be back to the high times of the 90's. I'm not so sure that we'll ever see those for awhile. I may just be overly optomistic that the confluence of Sept 11th, and the dot.com bust has scared consumers into being more responsible with their money, and more aware of what they TRUELY can afford. That would mean that even as the economy recovers people won't be so free with the plastic.

Is Disney prepared for it's customers to say, "You know what, I never should have paid what I did to stay at the Poly in 1998, and I'm not going to do that again. I love you Disney, but you're too expensive for me."

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

An awful lot of catching up to do!! (A dentist appointment kept me away! But, after some of my conversations with the other cars, it was like a pleasure cruise!! )

Anyway, Hopemax hit upon something vital quite a while ago and no one picked it up.

Actually, DVC, it did happen. Shortly after Walt died, "Roy's people" finally got to do what they had begged Walt to do, and that was raise prices a bit,

My Oh My!!! (he says with as much incredulous surprise as he can muster!) Does that mean… Could it be… That Walt had an even lower price baseline than the 1972 prices, well after Walt’s death) would indicate!?!?! My goodness!! What does that say about the Disney philosophy!?!?! That has been my point through all of this! What is the PRICING philosophy that endeared Disney to countless thousands?

It was a strategy. Now, maybe one can't accept that it was a part of a Disney's intended value equation, but at least offer another valid reason.

Mr. Matt!! It’s very nice to have you riding shotgun, even if we stray a bit on this issue!!

Which leads me to my other reluctant shot gunner, the ever lucid, moderate and usual voice of reason (and genuine nice guy) Gcurling!! However, he is dead wrong on this issue!!

Here we go again. What WDW charged for hotels in 1972 is completely and entirely meaningless. It has absolutely no connection to today's prices. None whatsoever.

Sure it does, Greg! It gives us a base line to work from. And it’s an indication of how price and value worked into the Disney philosophy. Remember, Walt created a totally different concept in amusement parks. But he didn’t stop there!! He also created a totally different concept in service. He transformed a ‘customer’ into a ‘guest’!! An ‘employee’ into a ‘Cast Member’. This guy changed everything he touched!! Why would anyone in his right head think that his ‘twisted’ ways wouldn’t touch price, value or the entire concept of the business model? And that’s what the price index shows. Perhaps not for the resorts (though I strongly contend that it does), but especially for the other items on the list! The hot dog, the parking, the tickets, etc. And now we learn that this was AFTER a recent price hike after his death!! I don’t know about you, but I’m WOWed by it!!

If WDW has well-outpaced inflation, then perhaps it's a testament to the improvement of the product. That's just as solid a conclusion as "greedy management."

GREG!!! My God!! Are you serious about that ‘improved product’ crack!?!? And just for the record, I do NOT think it is ‘greedy management’. Not in the least. It is ‘ordinary’ business. It is ‘mundane’ business. It is ‘what every other company in the world does’ business. It is NOT Disney business. It is thinking, not only in the box, but in the dead center of the box. Something that Disney never used to do!

You keep throwing out a 1972 Poly price. You also contend that the resort prices didn't go kapluew (spelling?) until Ei$ner instituted the "caste system".

Yep! I sure do!! I am confidant that I am right!! Know why? Read on!!

Hows about we do this. Let's see if we can reconstruct Poly prices from 1972 right up until today. That will give us a very good indication of how pricing evolved, and we can try to make educated conclusions from there.

We did!! About a year ago. And how fortunate that my good friends YoHo and Gcurling are participating!! For they were the ones directly involved with the thread.

I don’t have the info. I’m basically lazy and not very well organized, but I do recall that surprisingly the prices matched inflation pretty evenly, with three exceptions. The first, and relatively minor increase, I cannot blame on Ei$ner. It was a last ditch attempt of the Walker/Miller era at trying to please the board and/or the Street about a year or two before they were asked to take a hike. The second (and I believe the most substantial) was within the first year of Ei$ner’s tenure. The third was three or four years later. If you know anything about numbers however, you know that over the years even a slight increase grows at an amazing rate!

As for the whole 'untested swamp' concept, I submit that WDW was different from DL.

BUT THE PRICES THAT THEY CHARGED WERE THE SAME!!!!

Furthermore, you really didn't have a guide from DL for resort pricing.

That’s why I told you to leave the resorts out of it! If you have that hard a time trying to divine the Walt Disney Philosophy of price and value, leave the resorts out of it. Concentrate instead on the other items. And know that those prices were recently hiked after Walt’s death. Maybe that will give you some insight of the price/value concept.

Lastly, Walt had nothing to do with the rate set for the Poly in 1972.

WRONG AGAIN!! But thanks for playing!!

You really can’t be serious. Walt had everything to do with the price set in 1972. He set the philosophy. And if you know anything from this era it should be that Walker/miller were laughed at and condemned regularly for the “What would Walt do?” thing. Oh yes!! He had everything to do with it!!

If we move beyond resort rates, Mr. Bstanley shows us that the Disney burger and soda, breakfast, or a buffet dinner really wasn't any cheaper.

Wasn’t any cheaper than what!?!?!? I don’t know what the heck Culver City is!! Is it a Denny’s? Is it the Ritz? Somewhere in-between? Do you know? And what prices are they charging now? The same as Disney? More? Less?

If I'm wrong I'll give you the Mea Culpa, are you guys willing to do the same?

I can hardly wait!!!!

{Scoop alert!!! A double quote coming up!!!}

A couple of things. I may be willing to stipulate that Disney purposely upped the value by keeping the rates lower than comparable resorts - that they didn't follow traditional supply and demand models.

Read that last line you typed, 1000 times. This is what we're saying. Not only did Walt break the normal models of what was family entertainment, he broke the traditional business models too.

1,000 times isn’t enough!!! And you’re 100% right Ms. Max. That is all we are saying!!!!

Walt's system generated "lifers," it allowed the company to not have to resort to sales or discounts. It cushioned WDW against economic effects like recession, and high unemployement. Did you know that between 1972 and 1980, WDW attendance increased or remained unchanged every year except 1974 and 1979? The gas shortage, put Disney into trouble, not the high unemployment and not the skyrocketing inflation.

What a wonderful paragraph!! And with a slight presence on TV they didn’t even have to advertise!! Quite a business model!! Talk about thinking outside the box!!!

Greg’s turn, one last time.

One could assume that some posters in this thread think that a WDW with nothing more than a handful of deluxe resorts with rooms priced at $125 a night is a wise business model to follow

Do we only have the choice of what’s there and what I quoted you said? In that case give me the buck twenty five room and bring back the two year waiting list!! I can make plans far in advance! I used to do it all the time in the seventies and early eighties!!

Seriously though, I think that somewhere in the middle (and maybe a tad bit more “Walt”) would have been nice. Hopemax sized it up best I think!

Is Disney prepared for it's customers to say, "You know what, I never should have paid what I did to stay at the Poly in 1998, and I'm not going to do that again. I love you Disney, but you're too expensive for me."

I personally know many that say the exact same thing!! I said it too, ten years ago. That’s why I did the DVC. Without it, I’d be staying home!

 

[DisneyKidds]

We did!! About a year ago. And how fortunate that my good friends YoHo and Gcurling are participating!! For they were the ones directly involved with the thread.

All I have to say is.......... show me the money.*

*not so obscure movie quote .

As for the rest (says DK with tongue firmly in cheek), thanks for the hot air - it is really starting to get cold out .