DEBATE: Back in 1972...

[hopemax]

I was poking around looking for something else, and found this blurb in one of Deb Wills "All Ears" articles .

But before we get into the tips, let's STEP BACK IN TIME to March 1972...

...Rooms at the Contemporary and Polynesian Village resort hotels are $29, $36, and $44 per night, with suites ranging from $60 to $150. The same rates are in effect all year long! Campsites at Fort Wilderness are $11 per night and include utilities and transportation to and from the Magic Kingdom.

...There is a 50 cent charge for parking your car at the Magic Kingdom (but it's free if you are staying at the Polynesian or Contemporary). Wheelchair rentals are $1 per day and strollers are 75 cents per day.

...7-Adventure Ticket Books cost $4.95 for adults, $4.50 for Juniors (ages 12-17) and $3.95 for children (ages 3-11). Inside the theme park you can buy additional tickets for 10 to 90 cents each.

...There are 20 eating places in the theme park. Typical prices: hamburgers are 60 cents, hot dogs are 25 cents, sodas are 15 and 25 cents, popcorn is 20 cents. The Town Square Cafe (now Tony's) serves a breakfast of sausage and eggs for $1.50. A complete prime rib dinner at King Stefan's Banquet Hall (now Cinderella's Royal Table) is $4.50 for adults and $2.25 for juniors.

Running the numbers through the inflation calculator (rounding):

Hotels: $125, $155.50, $190
Suites: $390 - $650
Ft. Wilderness: $47.50
Parking: $2.25
Wheelchair: $4.25
Stroller: $3.25
Tickets: $21.50, $19.50, $17 additional - $.45-$3.90
Hamburgers: $2.50
Hot Dogs: $1
Soda: $.65 or $1
Breakast: $6.50
Prime Rib: $19.50, $9.75

 

[d-r]

Run that campsite at ft. wilderness through your calculator, I think it might be a better deal today (at least with the discounts). I think it is only around $30 or so.

DR

 

[Demosthenes]

Originally posted by hopemax



Running the numbers through the inflation calculator (rounding):

You have to be careful with that; inflation varies depending on the industry, and travel has varying rates of inflation throughout the country (and world for that matter). When WDW opened, one of the things that had to lure people to central Florida was a reasonable price (remember, Disneyland could be seen in a day, but nobody had imagined that a theme park could be transformed into an entire vacation destination), now people already know what they're in for, and are willing to pay more for it.

I'm not suggesting that the prices are directly in line with inflation; but I also don't think they should be. The market will drive prices today, just like it did in 1972.

 

[Bstanley]

So THAT's the problem...

It's not that my income is too small.

It's just that I was born 30 years too late!

 

[airlarry!]

Let me get this right...

The Poly room rates for 1972 was a measly $29 in those times and that translates to $125 now-a-days.

You know, when The Baron said that the Poly rates are, in today's dollars, equilavent to Moderate rates, I was a bit skeptical.

Hmm...looks like Sir Baron was indeed correct. it's not like I want to pay $125 everyday for a hotel...but I think I could save up for that big vacation every so often and spend a week at a monorail hotel for $125 a night and feel justified. But today, I get a smoggy bus instead of the convenient monorail....(and as an aside, to claim that the monorail doesn't *fit* in with Disney's Polynesian Resort is disingenous at best! It is not the South Seas Resort, it is Disney's Poly Resort---and it's named that way for a reason...one you would not think needs explaining. Holy Red Herring, Batman!)

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

The market will drive prices today, just like it did in 1972.

Ah! But the prices were driven by the philosophy!! Some people still don’t get that! It is a vital part of the magic!!

All this, Disney said, and for very, VERY, VERY affordable prices!! Don’t believe me? Then forget the resort prices. Concentrate on the hot dog instead! Same price for the very well established Disneyland.

Don’t like hot dogs? OK! Fair enough! Look at the parking! Or the tickets! Or the stroller rental! Or the wheelchair rental! Or the soda! Or the…. Well, I think you get the picture. The point is Walt always had higher prices. But not so high as to be considered outrageous. And in return he offered you much, much, much, much more than the competition could even imagine. That was magic!! That, my friend, was Disney!!

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Hmm...looks like Sir Baron was indeed correct.

Would it be impolite to say - "Na, na!!! I told you so!!!!!"

Yeah! It probably would be. So, forget I ever said it. The jury is instructed to disregard the last remark by the car #3 member!!

 

[Planogirl]

sodas are 15 and 25 cents

And this adjusts to $.65 and $1 in today's dollars? Now I really feel ripped off, and for something Disney doesn't even pay for!

Funny how certain things really stick out to a person...

 

[d-r]

But y'all. Low tourism numbers on I-92 notwithstanding, hotel rates are pretty high most anywhere. I probably travel 4-6 times per year for business, and rarely do I ever see a hotel bill for $125, more than likely they are $200 or so. Another example, I taught a class in Birmingham MI a year or two ago, and when I went over there the University would have a room for me, I think at a holiday inn express - it had outside doors like a motel, and although it was a comfortable and fine room, it wasn't anything special. I think the gov. rate was $129, and the rack rate was over $150. Heck we have even stayed at dives on I-75 when we wore out that were over $50.

I'm just saying that I see a lot of pretty high hotel prices.

DR

 

[Bob O]

Yes, the Baron has been right!!!
That was when you did get real value for your money and the parks had a very big "wow" affect in relation to the expereince you received for the money you spent!! We dont even have to go into the park hours besides the prices
They have owned the same land but look at the parking rates as one exemaple where disney has screwed their guests!!!

 

[Krisu]

We paid $30.00/night for campsite at FW. Cheaper than some not very good ones here in the Northeast

 

[KNWVIKING]

My oldest son goes to school in Boston, try to find a decent hotel in Boston for under $300.00.

Been to a ballgame recently, whats a hog dog & beer going for,about $10.00 ?

Ever try to park within three blocks of the beach in Jersey ? You wish you were paying WDW rates.

Been to any NASCAR races ? I think grandstand seats at Dover Downs were $85.00 per person.

Whats it cost for a family of four to go to a movie and have soda,popcorn and goobers ?

Entertainment $$$ don't follow the rules of inflation. All venues will continue to climb in price as long as people are willing pay.

 

[hopemax]

I'm just saying that I see a lot of pretty high hotel prices.

The problem is, that we've all seen a lot of different things.

Earlier this year I posted the rack rates for the lodges at the National Parks at the Grand Canyon, Zion & Bryce. The majority of the rooms were $115-$135 range. The company that runs the park lodges is called Xanterra, there's a resort called the Gideon-Putnam Hotel in Saratoga Springs (since that seems to be a theme lately) and the prices there are $185. I checked some other hotels in the Saratoga Springs area, for fun, Hilton in June $159, Sheraton $185-$215. Again, these are within the $125-$190 range of the adjusted Poly prices. Even the prices for the Bellagio the rooms are $200-$250, suites $350-$775 for a penthouse suite. And I'd consider the Bellagio above the Poly but it's the Poly that has the higher prices! Which is why I'm wary of the impact "hotel industry increases more than inflation" thing. Is it true, probably to some extent, but I don't think it accounts for ALL of the variance between the 1972 adjusted numbers and today's prices.

 

[hopemax]

My oldest son goes to school in Boston, try to find a decent hotel in Boston for under $300.00.

You know, this is probably part of the problem. I consider just about everything between Washington DC and Boston "abnormal" when it comes to prices (especially DC proper, NYC and Boston). The population density of that area, has created a scarcity of resources, land, etc. that make the pricing structure just completely different than what anyone else is experiencing.

To invoke a bad analogy. That area is like Titanic and it's $600 million. If we compare any other movie to Titanic just makes the other movies look BAD. It's just seems fairer to take Titanic out of the equation, then compare. Same for hotels in NYC, DC and Boston vs elsewhere.

It certainly explains why so many Eastern Seaboarders think WDW is a bargain, but there are so many other people with different experiences, and expecations where it's not.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

KNWVIKING, a couple of points.

My oldest son goes to school in Boston, try to find a decent hotel in Boston for under $300.00.

I don’t know what New York (or Boston) hotel rates were going for back in 1972, but I’ll make one of my famous wagers that it was a heck of a lot more than what Disney was charging for the Poly!!

And I really don’t mean to be argumentative but just what does all the other nonsense have to do with Disney!?! I understand your point, but it is not relevant! And Disney ain’t a beach in Jersey!! Walt never treated it as such! Neither should Ei$ner!!!

 

[DisneyKidds]

Originally posted by Demosthenes
You have to be careful with that; inflation varies depending on the industry, and travel has varying rates of inflation throughout the country (and world for that matter). When WDW opened, one of the things that had to lure people to central Florida was a reasonable price (remember, Disneyland could be seen in a day, but nobody had imagined that a theme park could be transformed into an entire vacation destination), now people already know what they're in for, and are willing to pay more for it.

Thank you!! Someone who finally understands something about inflation and doesn't blindly use the CPI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hmm...looks like Sir Baron was indeed correct.

Absolutely not!!!! Sir Larry, please don't be fooled by yet another incomplete analysis.

All this, Disney said, and for very, VERY, VERY affordable prices!! Don’t believe me? Then forget the resort prices. Concentrate on the hot dog instead! Same price for the very well established Disneyland.

Ok - tell me how much these hot dogs were elsewhere around the country. You keep saying how Disney gave you more for less than anyone else, but where is the proof?

You know, this is probably part of the problem. I consider just about everything between Washington DC and Boston "abnormal" when it comes to prices (especially DC proper, NYC and Boston).

How about Atlanta, is that "abnormal"? Hotel prices there are pretty close to NY, DC, and Boston. Hotels in any area of high demand will have higher prices.

And I really don’t mean to be argumentative but just what does all the other nonsense have to do with Disney!?! I understand your point, but it is not relevant! And Disney ain’t a beach in Jersey!! Walt never treated it as such! Neither should Ei$ner!!!

It has more to do with Disney than you think. In 1971 WDW was an untested resort detination in the middle of a swamp in the middle of nowhere in Florida. Sure, prices were low. That is how most new things start off. In this case it was partly because of Walt's desire to provide value, but it was also due in large part to the fact that it was new and unknown how people would respond to a Disney destination resort. After all, Disney's prior experience was with the day guest market in Anaheim. It is a little naive to think that the cost of WDW hotel rooms wouldn't outpace inflation as WDW became established (there is your explanation of 'rack rate' increases greater than inflation).

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Thank you!! Someone who finally understands something about inflation and doesn't blindly use the CPI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well! You’ve finally got the hang of a well placed exclamation point!!!

Why is it that you think you and your friend Demosthenes are the only ones that understand this concept? Many of us understand it! I understand it! I do indeed comprehend what you are saying. I just do not agree that it applies to Disney! I’m afraid it is you who doesn’t understand!

Let’s see if I can explain it a bit better.

Absolutely not!!!! Sir Larry, please don't be fooled by yet another incomplete analysis.

Absolutely not!! Sir Larry (His Airness!) does indeed understand the analysis. And he, like I, find it very complete. For Disney. How is it that you keep forgetting that Disney is (or at least used to be) UNIQUE!!?? Especially in price! And value!!

It's clear you don't get it. Take for example:

Hotels in any area of high demand will have higher prices.

See!! There you have it!! You really don’t get it, do you? Areas of ‘high demand’ have nothing whatsoever to do with Disney!! I thought you knew that!

In 1971 WDW was an untested resort detination in the middle of a swamp in the middle of nowhere in Florida. Sure, prices were low.

Which is EXACTLY why I pointed to all those other items. Such as parking. Or heck, how about ticket prices!!!

I don’t buy your untested swamp argument at all. It was tested in Orange county California. They had a sure thing coming to Florida and they knew it. But suppose, just for argument’s sake, that I did stipulate. I agree that the Florida Project and WDW in particular was very tenuous, at best. OK? Can we move on?

So! Where does this leave us? Well, an obvious question, if you want to delve into the pricing philosophy of Disney, is to ask about something which was indeed ‘tried and true’. Something that was ‘established’. Forget about resorts and concentrate on the ‘other’ items. And not in that very shaky business proposition in Florida but instead in a well established and recognized theme park. Hey! Come to think of it, the Grand-daddy of all theme parks! How about Disneyland!?!?!

Now how in the world do you think the gang at Disney knew what to charge for a hot dog or parking or tickets when they started to price items for Florida? Give up? Awe! You guessed it already! That’s right! Disneyland! And this place was firmly established for 17 years!! Man! It was the hottest thing going! If anywhere could have justified higher prices Disneyland could! But did they? Did they charge more, just because they could? No!!! In fact their prices (relatively the same as those charged at WDW) were soooo low that you attribute them to a new and tenuous operation that absolutely needed low prices in order to insure success!!

Now which is it Mr. Kidds. You can’t have it both ways. Did Disney grossly undercharge at WDW in insure attendance? Or did they just set their prices to what they normally charged at their well established joint?

It is a little naive to think that the cost of WDW hotel rooms wouldn't outpace inflation as WDW became established (there is your explanation of 'rack rate' increases greater than inflation).

Then why didn’t that happen to tickets or parking or hot dogs at Disneyland between 1955 and 1972?

What? No answer? I have one. Walt wouldn’t let it! And they by insured long-term loyalty and unimaginable success!!

One heck of a guy!!

 

[hopemax]

First off,

I'm not "blindly" using the CPI. It's meant as a starting point. I could have just posted the 1972 numbers, but that would provide absolutely NO context for today. Would it have been better if I just posted the 1972 numbers and done no calculations? Would that give people a greater understanding of what the 1972 numbers mean?

2. Atlanta. Can you give me the name of some Atlantan resorts that are meant to be "destinations." Hotels which serve a clientel similar to the make-up of WDW's clientel. That's why I used Las Vegas, the national park lodges. The clientels seem similar, aren't they? Then I'll look them up and compare.

I have no doubt that there are many hotels that are more expensive than WDW. But if the hotel expects to make money from business travels in town for a convention they're going to price themselves differently than if they are shooting for the "family" market. Same thing for a hotel whose clientel is the "rich & famous." I know WDW would like to think they are in the creme de la creme, but they aren't even close.

Hilton Niagara Falls Oct-May looks like they're $125-$175. In the summer the numbers finally go above the 1972 adjusted, $290 gets you a view of the falls, $300 gets you a jr suite with a king bed, jacuzzi and a view of the falls in the middle of July 2003. A standard view, Jr. Suite, peak season 2003 at the Contemporary will cost you $390.

Sheraton on the Falls 2003 rates: non-summer $108-$165, summer $140-$300.

I'm picking what are considered popular North American destinations, and picking what I would expect to be expensive hotels, right on top of the "destination attraction" and I keep coming up with numbers that fit within the 1972 adjusted numbers.

 

[hopemax]

Then why didn’t that happen to tickets or parking or hot dogs at Disneyland between 1955 and 1972?

Actually, DVC, it did happen. Shortly after Walt died, "Roy's people" finally got to do what they had begged Walt to do, and that was raise prices a bit, but they were still affordable compared to what we have to deal with! All my DL information is from 1967 onward (cause that's when my Dad went the first time). I'm very curious what the 1955-1966 prices were!

 

[hopemax]

Ah the things you do when you aren't sleepy...

Went to travelocity, searched for a hotel in Atlanta in May 2003. There were like 90 results. Looking at the right side, in bold it gives rate ranges. The majority of the hotels listed prices of under $200.

The main exceptions the Four Seasons ($330-$550), Westin at the Airport ($179-$270), Sheraton Buckhead ($165-$265), Hyatt Regency Atlanta ($99-$330), Crown Plaza Buckhead ($159-$399), Grand Hyatt Atlanta ($110-$399), OMNI at CNN Center ($225-$375), there was another Sheraton, Hyatt and Westin, but we get the idea.

Only 2 of these top tier Atlanta hotels don't have rooms that would fall within the $125-$190. And looking at the actual 2003 Poly rates...$340-$525. And while the Poly is nice, it ain't no Four Seasons, and it's never gotten a 5 star rating. Is comparing the Atlanta Four Seasons to the Poly comparing apples to apples?