Dear VMK... - I've waited a year to say this, so here it is...

[Disney Dreams]

I think this has gotten way off on a different tangent.

The only thing that should matter is that VMK messed up.
They clearly labeled an object as Hanukkah.
But they messed up the way the object should have been depicted.
Because it does matter to those the object means something.
It is not open to interpretation.

And VMK not only knew about it (from last year), they didn't change
it for this year when they released it again.

What is so difficult to understand, here?...

That's all I was saying.

I have made EVERY effort not to discuss the religious symbolism of any holiday objects mentioned here (menorah, wreath, candy cane) as that is NOT the point. Though they do have roots tracing back to religion. A Google search can give anyone who is interested more details. That is NOT what this thread is about.

...I believe VMK used the 7 candle version to keep religion out of the game as they did with not giving out nativity scenes....

Just to clarify, the 7 branch 1 IS religious. The 9 branch 1 is what is would represent the holiday, as VMK used on the pin that was released last year.

I always thought the VMK Menorah had 7 candles for the same reason Mickey only has 4 fingers.

See, now THAT makes sense... somehow. Thanks for the laughter that this thread needed.

 

[gshawen]

and a cute little stack of presents with a menorah - wait.... How many candles? 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 Oops! Uh, VMK, that's not a menorah. Thank you for the very cool thought, but - that's a basic candelabra.


Just to clarify, the 7 branch 1 IS religious. The 9 branch 1 is what is would represent the holiday, as VMK used on the pin that was released last year.

Ok now you have made me completely confused me.

 

[delicious]

That's all I was saying.


Just to clarify, the 7 branch 1 IS religious. The 9 branch 1 is what is would represent the holiday, as VMK used on the pin that was released last year.



Now then I am totally confused, if 7 is religious and 9 represents the holiday then what is the problem, apparenty both mean something to the Jewish holiday?

 

[KrazyPete]

To be clear, I don't want a more strict policy on religious expression from VMK. On the contrary, I'd like to be able to tell friends that I can't meet them on a certain night because I have something going on at church. And I'd like to be able to tell people that I will pray for them.

My concern is that VMK has compromised their own policy by adding objects to the game that carry religious significance. These objects all happen to be Jewish but it could have easily been some other major world religion, that's not the point. The point is that if you make an issue out of how it was done, the simple answer for VMK may be to never do it again.

So to my Jewish friends, please tread lightly. You have many religious symbols in the game and how this public campaign to change one of them plays out may have consequences for the rest of us. If the two extra candles are really that big of a deal then I wish you the best of luck.

Also: I don't hold Santa Clause, Christmas trees, twinkling lights or any of those other trimmings of the holiday season to have any religious significance. Not that there's anything wrong with them. But pointing to them as examples of Christianity in the game is not valid (in my opinion). If there were a manger scene in the game and there were three wise men in it, I wouldn't fuss because that's not a Biblically accurate representation. Heck, I would be happy if I just didn't have to hide my faith for fear of getting banned.

 

[disneyhockeymad]

To be clear, I don't want a more strict policy on religious expression from VMK. On the contrary, I'd like to be able to tell friends that I can't meet them on a certain night because I have something going on at church. And I'd like to be able to tell people that I will pray for them.

My concern is that VMK has compromised their own policy by adding objects to the game that carry religious significance. These objects all happen to be Jewish but it could have easily been some other major world religion, that's not the point. The point is that if you make an issue out of how it was done, the simple answer for VMK may be to never do it again.

So to my Jewish friends, please tread lightly. You have many religious symbols in the game and how this public campaign to change one of them plays out may have consequences for the rest of us. If the two extra candles are really that big of a deal then I wish you the best of luck.

Also: I don't hold Santa Clause, Christmas trees, twinkling lights or any of those other trimmings of the holiday season to have any religious significance. Not that there's anything wrong with them. But pointing to them as examples of Christianity in the game is not valid (in my opinion). If there were a manger scene in the game and there were three wise men in it, I wouldn't fuss because that's not a Biblically accurate representation. Heck, I would be happy if I just didn't have to hide my faith for fear of getting banned.

I agree with this 100%, as a Christian I think that it would be nice to talk about it once in a while, and the amount of people I have seen going round with 'Gad gloves you' or 'I glove the on on the cross' is amazing. I am in no way criticising your point, because I think that you have a valid one, if it was the first year then maybe its a bit ott but because its the second one and they know about it it is obviously different.

As I said i agree with KrazyPete, however I think that people are loosing the line of this thread, the point is that this is something that many pointed out last year and it hasnt been fixed. I dont think any of us who arent Jewish have the right to say whether we think that this is right or wrong because to us this is just another 'symbol' of a faith, whereas to the Jewish faith it means more than that. However I think that VMK are treading on a thin line because, as we can already see, this is opening a barrel of worms and has lead to much debate and controversy. VMK should be careful with what they include, if they are going to include something religious then they should do their upmost to make it true to the religion itself. I also think however that if VMK are willing to place items from one religion in the game they should be prepared to place items from others, especially at christmas time, as for many christmas time means either the birth of Jesus, or Hanukkah, and it is not just a commercial holiday.... I am in no way saying get rid of the 'commerical' items, no way!!!

 

[BriarRosie]

You know, the two missing candles really didn't bother me, personally. I believe I explained that early in this thread. The part that bothers me is that someone else was bothered by it, and many comments made here shrug off the complaints as being insignificant.

I see the tone of "What's the big deal?" Well, the big deal is that it should be about being culturally aware of others.

If we took religion out of the equation, and replaced the object with the current 50 star Stars and Stripes flag and made a rug out of it, I believe a few people might have a complaint about disrespecting the flag.

But to the point, I have seen a display for Hanukkah at Walt Disney World, along with one for Kwanzaa, and I enjoyed the holiday storytellers around World Showcase. WDW did not showcase the Hanukkah menorah with a 7 branch menorah, and I don't think VMK should, either.

So while I don't care one way or the other, I support those who had cared enough to write to VMK last year.

 

[Disneychick74]

I think this thread has been blown out of proportion a bit.
I don't think it was the authors intention to start a religous debate, just that VMK messed up and it was offending to some people.

If VMK released an advent candle (representing the christian countdown to christs birth) but it was missing a candle or misrepresented in some way all the christians would feel the same.

The fact of the matter is I feel the dreidel chairs represented the holiday very well. without being UBER religous. It is a symbol and a toy... Just like the Toy soldiers, no "Real" religous connections there.

With the menorah they crossed the line from Symbolism to religon and got it wrong to boot. It is a touchy subject and VMK/Disney should know better.

 

[aengus]

The part that bothers me is that someone else was bothered by it, and many comments made here shrug off the complaints as being insignificant.

I see the tone of "What's the big deal?" Well, the big deal is that it should be about being culturally aware of others.

So while I don't care one way or the other, I support those who had cared enough to write to VMK last year.

These 3 points are very important. I cringed when I first saw this post happen. Not because of the content or the author. I just knew people would start to blur what the subject is. I think those 3 points of Briars post are very important to keep in mind before responding.

 

[mtlhddoc2]

well, I am offended by this entire thread. VMK made an effort to represent one of the other major religions in the holiday season in the best way they possibly could. Both versions of the Menorah have significance, so they were both represented. The owner of my company is Jewish and he has a 7 candle Menorah displayed in his office.

Personally, however, if they are going to display religious symbols in VMK, they should represent Kwanzaa and Ramadan as well. But why stop there? Lets do the Chinese New Year, Buddhist Day of Ascension and any other religion we can drag up.

For the record, I am an athiest and I celebrate Christmas with trees, wreathes and candy canes. The "Christmas" tree is not a symbol of Christianity at all. it actually originated with Wicca in the 15th century. Christianity co-opted the idea in the late 1700's. Previous to that, all those who decorated trees at Christmas time were burned at the stake for practicing witchcraft.

And lastly, for the record. Christmas is celebrated by several cultures and several religions, including Islam and Buddhism, while Hanukkah is celebrated only by the Hebrew religion. there are 7 Billion people in the world. 3 Billion Christians, 2 Billion Muslims, 1 Billion Buddhists, and 150 Million Hebrews.

 

[KrazyPete]

I'm just going to bow out of this discussion before someone comes right out and calls me an insensitive jerk. It feels like it's getting pretty close to that already.

I consider Dreams to be a good a friend. I hope this discussion hasn't hurt that relationship at all. It wasn't my intention to be dismissive. I only wanted to add a little perspective and maybe learn something myself. Again, I sincerely hope this "issue" gets worked out to everyone's satisfaction.

 

[moikturtle]

well, I am offended by this entire thread. VMK made an effort to represent one of the other major religions in the holiday season in the best way they possibly could. Both versions of the Menorah have significance, so they were both represented. The owner of my company is Jewish and he has a 7 candle Menorah displayed in his office.

You know, that's interesting that you mention knowing someone personally who uses seven candles for their menorah. Prior to this, the only mentions I'd seen of seven candle versions was in the Wikipedia excerpts that were posted in previous comments. So, that makes me wonder if perhaps the seven candles on that menorah were intentional. If there are people in the world who use seven candles and people in the world who use nine candles, perhaps VMK was trying to account for BOTH populations. In their research for designing the menorah items last year, I'm sure they came across this same information. Rather than choosing one or the other and possibly isolating a group of people, maybe they decided to do one of the items with seven (the gifts) and one with nine (the pin). And perhaps that is why this item was not changed.

 

[cteddiesgirl]

You know, that's interesting that you mention knowing someone personally who uses seven candles for their menorah. Prior to this, the only mentions I'd seen of seven candle versions was in the Wikipedia excerpts that were posted in previous comments. So, that makes me wonder if perhaps the seven candles on that menorah were intentional. If there are people in the world who use seven candles and people in the world who use nine candles, perhaps VMK was trying to account for BOTH populations. In their research for designing the menorah items last year, I'm sure they came across this same information. Rather than choosing one or the other and possibly isolating a group of people, maybe they decided to do one of the items with seven (the gifts) and one with nine (the pin). And perhaps that is why this item was not changed.

Excellent point!
I, too, also knew someone who celebrated with a 7 candle menorah.

I also think that the problem with VMK trying to celebrate Hanukkah is that there are few well-known symbols of the holiday other than dreidels and Menorahs. What other symbols are there that aren't part of religious ceremony? So I feel that with adding menorahs in several ways was their attempt to try to even up the items celebrating the two main holidays.

Also, I agree that Santa, Christmas trees, wreaths, etc, are not inherent to the Christian religion. In fact, I know several Christians that refuse to celebrate the holiday with any of these items because they come from pagan beliefs. These have all become secular symbols of the season but are not actual part of religious ceremony. They can all be taken away and Christmas will still be Christmas to the Christians.
As Jesus wasn't even born in the winter, the entire season was basically taken over by the Church to incorporate people of other religions to get them to call themselves Christian.

 

[gshawen]

I have not been offended by this thread, the vmk items in question, and I hope I have not offended anyone with what I posted, if I did I am truely sorry as that was not my intent.

 

[Princess_Angelica]

You know, that's interesting that you mention knowing someone personally who uses seven candles for their menorah. Prior to this, the only mentions I'd seen of seven candle versions was in the Wikipedia excerpts that were posted in previous comments. So, that makes me wonder if perhaps the seven candles on that menorah were intentional. If there are people in the world who use seven candles and people in the world who use nine candles, perhaps VMK was trying to account for BOTH populations. In their research for designing the menorah items last year, I'm sure they came across this same information. Rather than choosing one or the other and possibly isolating a group of people, maybe they decided to do one of the items with seven (the gifts) and one with nine (the pin). And perhaps that is why this item was not changed.

i was wondering something similar to this myself a few hours ago. from the bit of research i've done, the 7-candle menorah seems to be considered the more traditional. and in the case of vmk trying to use both numbers of candles, i'd say that's a good idea on thier part. they probably assumed that people wouldn't get as offended. but from what i've been reading in this thread, it seems that even if they had done both items with 9 candles, some people still wouldn't have thought it was proper and would have sent in their complaints as well. i'm not really sure. but personally i think that the Jewish vmk population is lucky to have a religious symbol like that in vmk at all, rather than nothing but secular holiday items the the Christians get. i am afraid in the future that to solve this problem, vmk will simply not release any holiday items in order to not offend anyone. truth be told, no matter what anybody does, someone will ALWAYS be offended. that's just the way of humans. i do think this will be my last post in this thread. i don't really want people to think i am a horrid wretch. although at home i have my days... in general, i am simply not that kind of person. i actually had a bit of fun on this discussion. sometimes it is nice to just have a civilized debate with others. not necessarily arguments, but differences of opinion. and for that reason, i am actually glad this thread was started.

please understand that i have not been offended by anyone and have not meant to offend others. we are all a big happy dis family and i hope that it will stay like that for many years to come

on a lighter note, i hope everyone has a wonderful holiday season!! i know i will, my husband and i get to spend our first Christmas together this year, he's not deployed somewhere! Praise the Lord!

 

[JollyRogerD]

Here is the clarification on the menorahs... A seven candled menorah is a very strong representation of Judaism. That type of menorah was lit in the temple during the both temple eras. It represents Jews, the Jewish temple (above the wailing wall in Israel) and the state of Israel. The reason we light a menorah with 8 candles plus one to light the rest (9) on Hanukkah is to represent the days that the 7 candled menorah in the temple miraculously stayed lit after a battle during the second temple era in 2nd Century BCE. The temple in Jerusalem was re-dedicated after its desecration by the forces of Antiochus IV and commemorates the "miracle of the container of oil." The re-dedication following the victory of the Maccabees over the Seleucid Empire, there was only enough consecrated olive oil to fuel the eternal flame in the Temple for one day. Miraculously, the oil burned for eight days, which was the length of time it took to press, prepare and consecrate fresh olive oil. Therefore we light one candle for each of those days.
There is your history lesson.
To say that a nine candle menorah is less of a religious symbol than a seven candled one is wrong. THE Menorah is seven candled. A Hanukkah menorah is nine candled. It just is showing Disney's ignorance, that's all. If they want to keep it that way and not look it up, they can look dumb.

 

[Disney Dreams]

A menorah used to celebrate Channukah has 9 candles. Fact.

Whether various items are or are not religious, does religion belong in vmk, are wreaths and candy canes religious symbols are ALL interesting topics, but NOT the topic I intended at all. I find it very interesting the quantity of posts this thread has.

The point is very simple: VMK created a very specific item incorrectly (fine, mistakes happen) and knowingly re-released it while still wrong (not fine).

That's it. It's a pretty basic fact, nothing more.

...I cringed when I first saw this post happen. Not because of the content or the author. I just knew people would start to blur what the subject is.

Sorry. I thought it was a pretty basic topic: a re-release of a VMK oops. However, it has taken many twists to exactly where I never wanted it to go. My apologies.

 

[PinkSugar]

Call me a pagan, I celebrate Christmas but I am not Christian, I don’t believe in Jesus or much in the bible, I have my own beliefs but I get a Christmas tree and snowmen and wreaths and have always left lots of cookies for Santa for lot of gifts under the tree. Non of those items to me have overly “Christian over tones” even tho we call it “christ-mas” Christmas at my house or "the Holidays" is a time for getting the family together and loving one another, other people celebrating how they choose to celebrate has never offended me, weather you say Merry Christmas or Happy Hanukah or Kwanza to me it all means the same thing and is meant with a happy thought, Season’s Greetings to my fellow man.

I am sorry that you were offended by the inaccuracy of the time but the spirit of the item is there, and at least your holiday was considered, I don’t recall seeing any kwanza items and I am sure lots of vmk'ers celebrate that too. And perhaps this year’s Candy Land theme was designed so that everyone can celebrate without being offended no matter what your religion I think we can all agree every kid likes candy

 

[aengus]

Sorry. I thought it was a pretty basic topic: a re-release of a VMK oops. However, it has taken many twists to exactly where I never wanted it to go. My apologies.

No need to apologize to me

 

[disneyhockeymad]

having read and re-read the posts before and after mine I can see that maybe what I wrote was a little off topic, so for that I apologise.
I dont think it matters what religion you are, or whether you are of a religion at all, the fact of this topic is clear, vmk knowingly posted something that many believe to be innacurate.
I aplaude BriarRosie for suppoting those who wrote in about it and I support DisneyDreams for querying the amount of candles again. Maybe we should take a leaf out of their book, and even if we dont agree with it, or aren't Jewish ourselves, what is done is done, and we should support those who do care.

 

[cteddiesgirl]

Here is the clarification on the menorahs... A seven candled menorah is a very strong representation of Judaism. That type of menorah was lit in the temple during the both temple eras. It represents Jews, the Jewish temple (above the wailing wall in Israel) and the state of Israel. The reason we light a menorah with 8 candles plus one to light the rest (9) on Hanukkah is to represent the days that the 7 candled menorah in the temple miraculously stayed lit after a battle during the second temple era in 2nd Century BCE. The temple in Jerusalem was re-dedicated after its desecration by the forces of Antiochus IV and commemorates the "miracle of the container of oil." The re-dedication following the victory of the Maccabees over the Seleucid Empire, there was only enough consecrated olive oil to fuel the eternal flame in the Temple for one day. Miraculously, the oil burned for eight days, which was the length of time it took to press, prepare and consecrate fresh olive oil. Therefore we light one candle for each of those days.
There is your history lesson.
To say that a nine candle menorah is less of a religious symbol than a seven candled one is wrong. THE Menorah is seven candled. A Hanukkah menorah is nine candled. It just is showing Disney's ignorance, that's all. If they want to keep it that way and not look it up, they can look dumb.

A menorah used to celebrate Channukah has 9 candles. Fact.

Whether various items are or are not religious, does religion belong in vmk, are wreaths and candy canes religious symbols are ALL interesting topics, but NOT the topic I intended at all. I find it very interesting the quantity of posts this thread has.

The point is very simple: VMK created a very specific item incorrectly (fine, mistakes happen) and knowingly re-released it while still wrong (not fine).

I'm aware of the history and of everything mentioned. I have studied various religions over the years.
But, I still knew a woman who celebrated Hanukkah with a 7 candle menorah.
To her, that's what was right. Don't ask me how or why, but that's how she celebrated it.
I'm sure that is how others celebrate the holiday. Maybe those people are offended by a 9 candle menorah.