Dear Eisner

[DC7800]

Originally posted by thedscoop
The trend toward a new approach to WDW lodging did not begin with the Grand Floridian or Caribbean Beach Resort. It started with the garden wings located at the Contemporary Resort

How can the Contemporary Garden Wings represent a "a new approach to WDW lodging" when they were part of the orignal WDW resorts? There's no prior approach to compare! This resort, together with the Polynesian, established the concept of a WDW "hotel". The same philosophy which built the Polynesian and the Magic Kingdom also included the overall design for the Contemporary; whethor it has stood the test of time well may be another debate, although I'd argue the Contemporary fared much better than it's commonly given credit for.

 

[KNWVIKING]

***"How can the Contemporary Garden Wings represent a "a new approach to WDW lodging" when they were part of the orignal WDW resorts?"***

If I'm not mistaken the wings were added long after the Cont was built, they were not part of the original WDW resort.

 

[KNWVIKING]

.... I've always been under the impression those ugly wings were an add-on attempting to cash in on the monorail location. It seems incredible that something so "Eisner" would have been done at the very beginning.

 

[Another Voice]

Yes Mr. Scoop, you're right. You found the secret. You've let the cat out of the bag, the cow out of the barn and the chicken out of the pot.

The resort expansion proves that Walt Was A Moron (WWAM for short) and that all of Disney prior to Eisner is nothing a vast myth made to cover our shame.

We knew at the time that the only true road to success was to build cheap motels, make cheap movies, and cheap trinkets. But hey, we were foolish. We wasted all that time on quality and making movies people wanted to see, parks people wanted to visit and stuff people wanted to buy.

Walt and his people were so stupid. We tried, but since we were all chained to our desks we had to follow their lead. Walt was an evil person afterall. And I still remember that day when Eisner showed up and tore open the gates with his bare hands. Sunlight - for the first time in decades - poured into the studio. At last someone to free us from the evil we were forced to spread! I still get misty eyed remembering the day my shackles were unlocked...

When the idea came up of expanding the Contemporary we really wanted "to get it right". Naturally, those Old Walt People (otherwise known as The Fools) of course got it completely wrong. Their idea was to build lower costs accommodations (because that's what the demand was for) at the same resort. That would allow those guests to experience the same magic (as if they even knew the proper use of the word) of a Disney resort and let them pick how much they wanted to spend. And a price difference based on something real - like location - rather than a fancy term meaning "you can't see much of the parking lot from your room". Of course, the new rooms would have to follow the same design and architecture of the resort. Like I said, these people were stupid.

No - had we just known at the time the proper way to do things.

Like different rooms at the same resort. How stupid!!! Let the huddled poor into an upscale resort? It's bad enough those people are allowed to share the monorail (instead of staying on the busses where they belong) - but to have them share the same pool? That was simply beyond the pale. Poor people deserve less and it's Disney's obligation to uphold that ideal. By allowing families large rooms and a lower price - while allowing them the same access to amenities that better people had - WDW did much to contribute to social ills of the age. The entire nation must be grateful that Michael Eisner stepped forward and put everyone back in their proper places.

And this idea that the buildings should fit with the existing site. We were so dumb. No one wants a resort that's coherently designed. If we had only known the people wanted nothing but tilt wall construction and massive fiberglass signs screaming DO THE FUNKY CHICKEN then Walt Disney World would have been a financial success off the bat instead of the cesspool it was until the Disney/MGM Studios opened. How stupid we were back then. All that money wasted. All that time wasted.

I mean really, who cares about building a hotel people want to stay at. The correct way of doing things is to always compete on price and brand image. Overprice the high end ('cause nothing says "elite" like paying too much) so the rabble thinks a hundred bucks a night for a drive-in motel is "value". If we had only been such cleaver marketers (sigh). And when people come to think that's too much still, offer "discounts" to make them think their smart and getting a deal (even though we really think they're just stupid and gullible).

The highest form of human experience is to say "this is cheap!" instead of "this is amazing!". Hell, Motel 6 can build really nice resort, but it takes Disney to go that extra measure of tackiness. But, you know, WWAM.

Looking back on those days it's hard to imagine that anyone at all even came to WDW. It truly is amazing. Why would anyone want a two-day park filled with new attractions when a half-day carnival is just as Magical® (all rights reserved, this term is used with the expressed written permission of The Michael Eisner Company and may not be copied, transcribed, duplicated, transmitted and/or broadcast with proper payment to said company. No other organization, group, animal, vegetable, mineral or noun may be refereed to using this term without proper filing, payment of fees and sufficient notice that all good things in life are available for purchase solely out of the kind and generous heart of Michael Eisner).

It feels so good to get that off my chest. The past is nothing but garbage. The present is a paradise of wonder and virtue. And the future will be gloriously profitable for generations yet to come.

 

[Another Voice]

At what point are the Gardern Wings not part of the Contemporary Resort. I don't remember a line painted on the ground that says "the future ends here - beyond if just a hotel"). Seems to me that the entire property fits together nicely (and the Garden Wings are closer to the pool and marina if you want to talk amenities). The Garden Wings follow the same lines as the Tower - so much so that people don't even they were added after.

Or is that you hold the only "true" expansion would have been additing more floors to the Tower? You now, set the requirements of the past so high the shortfallings of today don't seem too bad.

And it seems like you're stretching the logic in an attempt keep the "but they did that before so that means we have a free hand to drag out the fifty Buzz Lightyear scupture where ever we want". They added new buildings to the Poly as well. Are they "unthemed grabs for cash" so Eisner's actions are justified as well.

Life is very, very easy if all the mistakes and sins of the part serve to excuse current mistakes (especially if you interupt the past to meet whatever the current needs are).

The years may change, but basic demands don't. When The Old Walt Guys wanted to expand, they chose themed additions to existing resorts so they could continue to uphold the standards they had set. The current management (know as The Saint That Walks Among Us) choose to lower standards instead of figure out a better way of running the business.

The issue isn't whether there should be "affordable" rooms at WDW - the issue is how you create them.

 

[KNWVIKING]

***" (geez, lady, haven't we agreed on that one already?). "***

AV... male or female ?

***"so much so that people don't even (know) they were added after."***

Were the wings add ons or original construction ?

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Mr. 2000:

Still, I believe he did retain the Disney philosophy with regards to storytelling and theme.

This is where you and I part company. I totally disagree. And no where more strongly than with the resorts. What you consider “theme and story” in the economies, I consider huge decorations and primary colors gone wild!! I can see no ‘story’. I can see ‘theme’. Maybe you can point them out.

DVC Landbaron - I'm curious. Are you a DVC member?

Yes! However, if I knew in 1993 what I know now, I don’t think I would have bought in.

That said, I have NEVER been disappointed. In fact I would even go so far as to say that it is extremely reminiscent of Disney in the ‘70s. It is truly packed with WOW!

As far as being in the “Official LandBaron Caste System” – well, no. It is a separate animal. However, the DVC is quickly going in that direction. Instead of costing more money for the newer establishments, it costs more points. I am starting to feel like a second class citizen having my “home” points at Old Key West. But I’ve seen it coming for years. And it is getting worse. But I’m not surprised. It’s just typical!

So here you have it Baron…

…Deal?

DEAL!!!

And welcome to Car #3!!! With that acknowledgement you just bought yourself a first class ticket!! Come to think of it “first-class” is the only ticket we offer!! (we do have to maintain out standards, you know!!)

But what really pushed it over the edge was AV’s post! WOW!!! Did you read it? If not find it and study it! The one that starts “Yes Mr. Scoop, you're right. You found the secret.”

It is by far the best post he ever wrote! (so much so that Scoop’s response seemed like a non-response - response!) Very good indeed! And it went a long way to saying what you’re always on about. Providing a better price. And what I’ always on about, not lowing the standards! Kinda sounds like Garden Wings and additional out buildings fit the bill nicely! THAT is something worthy of WALT!!!



Ah, Scoop! It is so good to engage you again. Just to know that I alone have the power to make you hurriedly and violently push (or is that throw?) aside… yada yada yada…

Hmmmmm… Now that I think about it, I don’t have anything to say to you… Sorry!

AV, my lord, I kneel before you! The entire post was… well…

The years may change, but basic demands don't. When The Old Walt Guys wanted to expand, they chose themed additions to existing resorts so they could continue to uphold the standards they had set. The current management (know as The Saint That Walks Among Us) choose to lower standards instead of figure out a better way of running the business.

The issue isn't whether there should be "affordable" rooms at WDW - the issue is how you create them.

… WOW!!!






Hey Scoop!! BTW, I thought you were gone for good!?

A Cameo

Does that mean you are going to go away again?

 

[wtg2000]

The resort expansion proves that Walt Was A Moron (WWAM for short) and that all of Disney prior to Eisner is nothing a vast myth made to cover our shame.

(in the voice of Cordelia) Overreact much?!


What about the original Golf Resort/Disney Inn and Disney Village Resort? Do they meet the standards of Disney theme, storytelling and magic?

And what about the WL, AKL, YC/BC and BW. Surely they tell a story?

Frankly, I'm not sure what the story at any of the resorts are. For the Poly you said it makes you feel like you're in the South Pacific. Agreed. It's wonderful. But I don't see that as a story. A story has characters and plot lines. Same for the Cont.

The WL appears to be an excellent recreation of a northwest lodge but I don't know if that's a story.

I know the fictional stories behind Typhoon Lagoon and Blizzard Beach. Are there fictional stories that explain the existence of the Poly and Cont. as well?

What's the WOW factor in DVC? Do the resorts tell a story? I've never stayed in any of them.

I'm surprised you don't consider it another feather in the caste system. It seems to me it would be the defining moment, having some people actually own part of WDW while the rest of us are just humble renters.

 

[BRERALEX]

11 pages? 152 responses? is it.........2001 again?

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

11 pages? 152 responses? is it.........2001 again?

Yes!! The only thing we’re missing is that lovable duck and my favorite pirate!! Actually I think I first started this nonsense even earlier. So, we’ve all had a lot of practice with the subject. And with that in mind…

What about the original Golf Resort/Disney Inn and Disney Village Resort? Do they meet the standards of Disney theme, storytelling and magic?

Well. I thought we’d get around to this. Come into my parlor… Mr. Fly…

Yes! They do! They do indeed! They never became popular (hey! You can’t win them all, or be right every single time), but they were Disney, through and through. They simply oozed WALT!!

 

[DisneyKidds]

And welcome to Car #3!!!

Now, now...........let's not start that nonsense again .

DEAL!!!

Now that we have agreed that different, more affordable resorts built at a lower cost and sold at a lower price (without this they wouldn't be more affordable would they?) fit within Walt's philosophy, can you tell me how (even if implemented in better fashion by Walt himself) that wouldn't represent a tiered or "caste" system? How would it be so different? Yes, there would be more quality and attention to the kind of detail that was important to Walt, but to be more affordable they would have to be "less" in some fashion. For so long I thought you were against the concept of any resort on Disney property being "less" than what existed in '72. I guess I was wrong. For so long I thought you were adamant about the fact that "moderate" resorts had no place in Disney, being "Disney". I guess I was wrong. I guess it was just the "moderate" resorts as done by ME. I have to say, I'm glad we agree on something but your lines just got fuzzier. But don't let it be said that I never endeavoured to REALLY understand you........so that process has to continue it seems.

And it went a long way to saying what you’re always on about. Providing a better price. And what I’ always on about, not lowing the standards! Kinda sounds like Garden Wings and additional out buildings fit the bill nicely! THAT is something worthy of WALT!!!

(DK shakes head and wonders if there aren't those who won't go to any length to deify that which was done back in the day.)

Sorry Baron.............but the Garden Wings just completely and totally SUCK. They do. They really, really do. Scoop is right and AV is all wet...........and you confound me even more.

Forget the new longhouses at the Poly. Those were great. Not only a true continuation of the original but an improvement. Not "less" than the original in any way. Can you honestly say the same for those Garden Wings?

Without a doubt, they most certainly are "less" than the tower. They are also cheaper than the tower. Resort rooms that are less than the tower and cheaper than the tower.............sounds a lot like building something less just to increase capacity that can be sold cheaper. I just don't see how you can view that as a good thing. OK, so you admitted that something "less" and more affordable could be Disney..............but you want to defend those unoriginal, bland, "could be a room anywhere" Garden Wings? We've stayed there. Yes, they are on the grounds of the CR so you get the proximity to the MK and the monorail...........and you do get to see how the better half lives it up in the Tower, but other than that they SUCK.

Tell me.........honestly. Would you rather stay in the CR Garden Wings or at POR? I'll take POR hands down as it is much more Disney. It is an immersive resort that takes you to a time and place.....rich in detail and bursting with theme. So you can see a parking lot. Guess what. Half the Garden Wing rooms are RIGHT ON TOP OF A PARKING LOT. Not even the worst of moderates can say that. The CR Garden wings don't take you anywhere...........other than close to where the REAL Disney Magic is in the Tower.

(Ahh.........that few seconds of agreement was nice, but alas......................)

 

[wtg2000]

(DK shakes head and wonders if there aren't those who won't go to any length to deify that which was done back in the day.)

You mean you just figured that out?!

 

[airlarry!]

Not to actually infuse this topic with common sense and reality, 'cause Lord knows there's a lot of WWAM going on here, but ...

Without a doubt, they most certainly are "less" than the tower. They are also cheaper than the tower. Resort rooms that are less than the tower and cheaper than the tower.............sounds a lot like building something less just to increase capacity that can be sold cheaper. I just don't see how you can view that as a good thing.

Well....no....it sounds *nothing* like building Poop Century.

Common sense would tell you that there are only so many rooms that can be added to a tower or added to the monorail...that is unless you want the A-Frame to stretch from the train station all the way to the TTC.

I mean, it's really that simple. The Garden Wings may not have been the perfect way to expand the A-Frame, but could you really think of something better without "hindsight is 20/20" stuff?

Just when you think that you've read every argument on the DIS that could ever be typed, out pops an idea I had never read before (course I could have just missed it).

The thought that instead of spreading hotels all over the freakin' resort, with its concommitant increase in roads, buses, traffic, and strain on the resort, that the Big E$ could have added cheaper priced rooms to existing resorts instead seems brilliant, and makes me a little mad.

Imagine The Grand Floridian, with $$$$ rooms right on the monorail, and $$$ between the monorail and boats, and $$ rooms near the water transport, and $ rooms near the pools. Same resort. Same amenities. Same wonderful transportation.

Just four sets of people paying for bigger rooms and more convenience. Course having your Avg Jeaux mingle with Cou$in Mike's elite would pi$$ him off, I am sure. Instead, Mikey makes him and his friends happy by shipping us off to Purple Poopland.

Baron may remember that I've been a slow, slow learner on this caste system...some of our discussions on the Golf resort and DxL go back 3-4 years now, and I haven't always agreed.

But between Baron's comment, and AV's brilliant post....

I get it.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Now that we have agreed that different, more affordable resorts built at a lower cost and sold at a lower price (without this they wouldn't be more affordable would they?) fit within Walt's philosophy, can you tell me how (even if implemented in better fashion by Walt himself) that wouldn't represent a tiered or "caste" system?

Because it would be so subtly done that very few (if any) would even notice, and those that did wouldn’t mind because the “downsizing’ would be minimal. Take your garden wings for instance. Or the newer longhouses. In each case, these could have been the Mods. And each other ‘deluxe’ could have had the same concept.

It is an absolute stroke of genius! You have the same resort, same transportation, same amenities and the same ‘everything else’. The only difference is a further walk to the main building, (perhaps) smaller rooms, double beds instead of queen size, perhaps (and only perhaps) no indoor corridor. Are you seriously going to tell me that this implementation, just as His Airness so adroitly pointed out, wouldn’t be preferable to Pop Century? Or even any of the Mods. Even Riverside?

Yes, even Riverside!! Picture Riverside done up as a ‘deluxe’! Pretty neat, eh? Now picture a section of Riverside done the way it is, for Mod prices. Not a bad concept is it? In fact, the Deluxe portion of the resort (i.e. gift shop, restaurants, lobby, front desk, pools, and “magical” transportation) would benefit the “Mod” section and make caste distinction barely noticeable. Sure you’ve got quite a hike to the “Magical” transportation and perhaps the interior lobby disappeared for this building, and maybe it has only double beds instead queen size, but come on Mr. Kidds!! Is that not preferable to the system they have now!?!?! Are you so enamored with the concept of ‘separate’ pricing structures within totally separates resorts that you cannot give this idea a little room to grow? I’m tellin’ ya!! It’s brilliant!!

Look, Mr. Kidds. We’ve already stipulated that there really isn’t place at all in the grand scheme of things for the ‘economies’. At least I think that’s what we’ve said. Please correct me if I’m wrong. So what we’re really talking about is how to do Mods. And we’ve both pretty much said that the way they have done the mods is NOT the right way. It comes close at times, very close (i.e. Riverside) but it is still not as good as it could get. That is the very reason we could never agree. I look at what is and say it STINKS!! You look at what is and say they concept is sound, but the implementation STINKS!! And for the past year and half (I think) you’ve been trying to convince me that “Mods” can work. It just takes some out-of-the-box thinking and some Walt-like “MAGIC”. But you haven’t, in all that time, come up with a concept that has been acceptable to my way of (admittedly convoluted and very hard-line) thinking!

Well here it is!! This is as out-of-the-box as you can get!! It is simply dripping with Walt-like “MAGIC”. Just look at how magical it is!! For the first time since the Caribbean was built – this concept has actually gotten your friendly neighborhood LandBaron to admit – as publicly as possible – that the concept of Moderate accommodations within Walt Disney World can indeed exist! If that ain’t magic, I don’t know what is!!

So pick up the marbles!! Say, “thanks for a good battle”. Be a gracious winner! You have me convinced!! FINALLY!! Yes, Mr. Kidds! Mods can exist in WDW if implemented right! What else do you want me to say? Do I really have to cry “UNCLE’!?!?! Or perhaps say, “I’m a codfish!!”

 

[cristen]

Originally posted by DVC-Landbaron
Because it would be so subtly done that very few (if any) would even notice, and those that did wouldn’t mind because the “downsizing’ would be minimal.
In fact, the Deluxe portion of the resort (i.e. gift shop, restaurants, lobby, front desk, pools, and “magical” transportation) would benefit the “Mod” section and make caste distinction barely noticeable.

This is exactly what I was trying to say. You wouldn't notice. How come I can't make my points like this?

 

[crusader]

Am I understanding this correctly? The solution to the caste system is construct only full service lavishly themed resorts with lower priced, less ornate and smaller accommodations somewhere away from the more desirable and accessible areas of the complex.

But

Nobody gets a room for less than $120/night.

So all you’ve done is dug up the mods and cleverly camouflaged them on the crap sections of the deluxe properties.

Sounds great. Count me in. I'm sure only a handful of these lucky guests in the primitive units will be complaining to management for free upgrades.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Nobody gets a room for less than $120/night.

Yep! ---- and ---- Nope!

You see, you’re missing a key element. And I suppose I can’t blame you. Your only experience with Disney has been with the “overpriced” version. But I’ve always maintained that price (or cost, if you will) plays an extremely vital role in the Disney “experience”. Anyone, and I mean anyone (you, me and even the current regime) can produce the current Disney “experience” for an outrageous and exorbitant price! The true “MAGIC” comes from the concept AND the pricing of the ‘thing’. Can’t you see that?

So depending on the pricing structure, which in my plan HAS to less than today, it could go substantially downward from that $120.00 a night pricetag you arbitrarily put on it!! In either case, it’s pretty much been stipulated that there is no place within the Disney “concept” or “philosophy” for the economies. So what we’re really talking about is the Mods. And even 120 a night ain’t too shabby for the Mods!!

So all you’ve done is dug up the mods and cleverly camouflaged them on the crap sections of the deluxe properties.

Yes! Yes! Yes!!!!

You finally “GET IT”!!! Congratulations!!!

Sounds great. Count me in. I'm sure only a handful of these lucky guests in the primitive units will be complaining to management for free upgrades.

Well, I wouldn’t call them “primitive”. You surely cannot be devoid of all imagination to picture them as at least as good as the Mods are now.

And sure they will ask for an upgrade! I sure would. And sometimes they’ll get, and sometimes they won’t! But if they don’t, they still don’t feel like a second class citizen! THAT’S THE BEAUTY OF THIS SYSTEM!!! Everyone has the same “RESORT” amenities!! You are staying at the Floridian (or Wilderness or Beach or whatever deluxe you care to name), for God’s sake!! At a very, very, very low rate!! I’d be ecstatic!!

 

[crusader]

Alright, before I engage that reply I need you to answer something for me.

Believe me, I'm listening.

Besides the resort facility itself, what are the other mandatory requirements of every deluxe Disney property in Florida according to your standards?

 

[All Aboard]

Baron... won't work. Variable cost structure still applies to the "mod" rooms in your model. The only difference is the size of the room and the size of the bed. Initial capital costs that are part of the equation. But, the staffing and all the other amenities must accomodate the entire guest population of the resort - including the steerage in the "crap section." So, your costs will be just as high as a "completely deluxe" resort with the same number of guest rooms. Unless they are, your "true deluxe" guests won't really be getting deluxe service.

Anyhow, you'll have an upside down model of demand. Think about it - the best rooms at a resort are in the fewest supply - suites at the Poly, King rooms at CBR. Your resort has a large number of rooms where guests essentially have to pay more to get the same level of service - but simply have a bigger room. Demand will gravitate toward the smaller rooms, where more value is perceived. Same pool, same restaurants, same beach, same transportation, same grounds, lower price - I'll take that one.

In my opinion, this is a far more overt caste system. Highly visible within the resort. "Yes, they are staying here at the Polynesian, but they are over there in THAT section."

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Believe me, I'm listening

Thank you.

Besides the resort facility itself, what are the other mandatory requirements of every deluxe Disney property in Florida according to your standards?

I’m not quite sure. The first thing that comes to mind is “Theme”. If it is the same resort (even if it’s a hike to the lobby) you’ve still got that.

And transportation!!! It has to be creative, different and unique. That is imperative. You can have a bus as well, but there needs to be alternative transportation.

Other than that… I have always maintained that it is the little things that separate Disney from the others. It was being able to eat off the floors, right after a parade, with nary a vacuum cleaner in sight. Now that’s magic!! Or knowing that the MK was opened until two in the morning, and yet arriving there at 8:00 am the next day and finding EVERYTHING absolutely pristine!! ALL the light bulbs working and NO chipped paint anywhere. Again, that was MAGIC!!! It was all those torch lined walkways in the Poly, when streetlights would have been easier and cheaper (BTW they don’t have those anymore. That is very sad!!).

So, I really don’t know how to answer your question, especially in light of the fact that we’re all in virgin territory. I had NEVER considered anything less than what they had built. And when we had this first go around, I contended that certain standards needed to be maintained in order to qualify as Disney. Sometimes just little things. Like bellhops (carhops) at the front entrance. The Mods don’t have that. Electric (automatic) doors for the lobby. Today I would count “zero depth” pools. Sometimes it’s seemingly silly things (but very, very Disney!!), like NOT being able to see the parking lot from ANY room (it goes to that “berm” idea that I happen to wholeheartedly agree with!)!!

In the past I had maintained that indoor corridors were necessary. Patios and/or balconies. A sink INSIDE the bathroom!! Double beds. That sort of thing. But…

… Today, in light of this earth shattering revelation, I don’t know. (The LandBaron is caught speechless!!!) I suppose something has to give. So I’m open. I suppose that some things I could stomach and others I’d cry foul!!! And you would probably have a different list! I think it is highly individual and highly arbitrary. Very subjective. More of a ‘feeling’ than logic could ever explain. But overall, I really believe that this system is light-years ahead of the current concept!! Heck!! Nearly ANYTHING is better than what we have!!

So, I’m open to ideas! As you know I don’t usually play “What If” games. I think they are lame and pointless. But this new concept of “Mods-within-STANDARD-Disney-resorts” is sooooooo intriguing to me – I find that I’d actually LOVE to play!!!

So… What’d ya say? Wanna play for a while? Do you have any ideas? And as you so aptly said…

Believe me, I'm listening