Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[dsnymnkyuncle]

I still fail to find where the Broker is taking a loss issuing a voucher worth X now but when it's redeemed it worth X minus 1. In all honesty the vouchers will more than likely end up with a value of zero once the CC charge backs start to go through. Just stinks for renters who may have taken the vouchers.

I stand ready to be corrected by those who know more about CC but I see the voucher as having an impact on the success of charge backs

 

[KingRichard]

Has anyone received a voucher yet and can they post it please. Everyone is claiming this and that yet one post said he was charging rack rates with no proof?

Also I stated before that I believe David and family members more then likely own thousands of points themselves and can use those points to keep the business running. He would more then likely have to wait monthly for more UY points to be added to his accounts!

Someone posted you can only do 10 rentals per year. Sure 10x300=3,000 points! Wife has same? Adult children?

How about transfer of points to employees? 1,000 points?

If Davids was going bankrupt then would he have not done it after the first 2 weeks? I have never even looked at bankruptcy so can't tell how it works or how fast, but it would seem to me that you would go silent and transfer all remaining cash to different accounts to avoid charge backs?

 

[Bearval]

I stand ready to be corrected by those who know more about CC but I see the voucher as having an impact on the success of charge backs

If you search the internet for travel vouchers you will see dozens of articles concerning airlines hotels and travel companies pushing vouchers now and why. (one major reason is the low redemption rate)They all tell you to demand a refund and they have to give it to you unless you canceled the trip first or if you have already accepted the voucher.

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

I can speak to this. I have never made more than one rental a year. In all the years probably 5 or so. Yet one year I got an email from Disney about renting points. Didn't keep it but it was kind of 'word to the wise' reminding me of the rules on renting.

There is clearly some line between me on every few years and people who have multiple contract out a time but I dont recall ever seeing a max.

That said I can see David owning whatever the max is and since he does not need to worry about annual pass or 11 months windows and pays bottom of market for cheap contracts that he has to have this as the third leg of his business.
The other being broker and insurer

Has anyone received a voucher yet and can they post it please. Everyone is claiming this and that yet one post said he was charging rack rates with no proof?

Also I stated before that I believe David and family members more then likely own thousands of points themselves and can use those points to keep the business running. He would more then likely have to wait monthly for more UY points to be added to his accounts!

Someone posted you can only do 10 rentals per year. Sure 10x300=3,000 points! Wife has same? Adult children?

How about transfer of points to employees? 1,000 points?

If Davids was going bankrupt then would he have not done it after the first 2 weeks? I have never even looked at bankruptcy so can't tell how it works or how fast, but it would seem to me that you would go silent and transfer all remaining cash to different accounts to avoid charge backs?

 

[CanadaDisney05]

I still fail to find where the Broker is taking a loss issuing a voucher worth X now but when it's redeemed it worth X minus 1. In all honesty the vouchers will more than likely end up with a value of zero once the CC charge backs start to go through. Just stinks for renters who may have taken the vouchers.

He's taking the loss because not every owner is giving him back the 70%, yet he's offering the voucher to every renter.

If the vouchers end up with a value of zero because the company goes out of business, it is what it is.... That doesn't make it a scam or a con. You can't expect the company to worry about making people whole if that act will lead them out of business. At the end of the day, everyone has to worry about their own well being first. That's why renters and owners are so mad. They are focusing on their own situation and want to be made whole.

 

[Dracula]

I can speak to this. I have never made more than one rental a year. In all the years probably 5 or so. Yet one year I got an email from Disney about renting points. Didn't keep it but it was kind of 'word to the wise' reminding me of the rules on renting.

There is clearly some line between me on every few years and people who have multiple contract out a time but I dont recall ever seeing a max.

That said I can see David owning whatever the max is and since he does not need to worry about annual pass or 11 months windows and pays bottom of market for cheap contracts that he has to have this as the third leg of his business.
The other being broker and insurer

The limit is 20 - no more than 20 reservations per year, unless you make all of them for you and your family.

 

[dwight16]

Has anyone received a voucher yet and can they post it please. Everyone is claiming this and that yet one post said he was charging rack rates with no proof?

Also I stated before that I believe David and family members more then likely own thousands of points themselves and can use those points to keep the business running. He would more then likely have to wait monthly for more UY points to be added to his accounts!

Someone posted you can only do 10 rentals per year. Sure 10x300=3,000 points! Wife has same? Adult children?

How about transfer of points to employees? 1,000 points?

If Davids was going bankrupt then would he have not done it after the first 2 weeks? I have never even looked at bankruptcy so can't tell how it works or how fast, but it would seem to me that you would go silent and transfer all remaining cash to different accounts to avoid charge backs?

So the way a cc works is I call up and dispute the charge at say chase. They ask why I tell them right then they take the charge off my card and take the money out of david’s account. They investigate you fill out forms. David would fight it and he would have to fill out forms. Someone decides and that’s pretty final. How they would view the contract I have no idea but my guess is they side would interest paying customers. So then david would have a negative balance in his account he better hope they don’t have access to his accounts or things can get real dicey for him. This keeps happening he get a major negative balance the banks will want there money he will get cut off or taken to court. He can’t do business bc he can’t take credit cards.

 

[Dracula]

Has anyone received a voucher yet and can they post it please. Everyone is claiming this and that yet one post said he was charging rack rates with no proof?

Also I stated before that I believe David and family members more then likely own thousands of points themselves and can use those points to keep the business running. He would more then likely have to wait monthly for more UY points to be added to his accounts!

Someone posted you can only do 10 rentals per year. Sure 10x300=3,000 points! Wife has same? Adult children?

How about transfer of points to employees? 1,000 points?

If Davids was going bankrupt then would he have not done it after the first 2 weeks? I have never even looked at bankruptcy so can't tell how it works or how fast, but it would seem to me that you would go silent and transfer all remaining cash to different accounts to avoid charge backs?

Assuming David and his family are point-rich, using their own points to make their customers whole is similar to using their cash savings. I don't think either renters or David care whether new rentals are set up with David's cash or David's future points. It would be great if David is willing to put his personal assets on the line to make his customers whole.

There is indeed a point limit set by Disney, a member can only amass 8,000 DVC points, with a maximum of 4,000 points at any one resort.

Moving cash to different accounts is not as easy as it sounds. I would think in bankruptcy court the judge would ask for the financial transactions of the business. Also, although David operates his rental empire as a sole proprietorship, I would think he set up business bank accounts to handle business transactions. He could of course declare a dividend and transfer funds to his personal accounts, but because of the sole proprietorship nature of his business, he may still need to surrender some of his assets to his creditors. A judge would not look kindly on a business owner that declared a large dividend just before his business went bankrupt.

Now, you may wonder who those creditors would be, since renters and owners are unlikely to file small claims in Ontario? It would be the very banks holding his business accounts, who are now pressured by credit card chargebacks.

As an interesting fact - I chose to send David a refund for one of my canceled reservations, because I was able to transfer those points to someone else within days from when they became available. His team advised me to return the 70% via PayPal to a different account than the one who paid me originally. Since they gave me the instructions in writing I don't worry too much about not fulfilling my contract, but it is a red flag which may indicate that some of his accounts, either PayPal or bank, may already be in withholding.

 

[CanadaDisney05]

my guess is they side would interest paying customers

Just for clarification, credit card companies don't make the majority of their money from consumer's (you and me) who may pay interest. They make their money from the merchants (David's) who get charged 2-4% for every credit card transaction they process. If you paid David $1000, the credit card company gets about $30 off the top, and David gets $970.

I don't necessarily agree with you that the CC company will have a bias towards the side that they earn their revenue from, but if they did, they would be siding with David, not the renter.

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

The limit is 20 - no more than 20 reservations per year, unless you make all of them for you and your family.

Now that makes sense. The first purchase was for DD when she was a cast member. We got lots of one time use points and made multiple trips. What a great time!

 

[Bearval]

So the way a cc works is I call up and dispute the charge at say chase. They ask why I tell them right then they take the charge off my card and take the money out of david’s account. They investigate you fill out forms. David would fight it and he would have to fill out forms. Someone decides and that’s pretty final. How they would view the contract I have no idea but my guess is they side would interest paying customers. So then david would have a negative balance in his account he better hope they don’t have access to his accounts or things can get real dicey for him. This keeps happening he get a major negative balance the banks will want there money he will get cut off or taken to court. He can’t do business bc he can’t take credit cards.

They will also look at what the "exchange " policy that was in place at the time. If is says refund you get a refund. If it says voucher then you would get a voucher. Also vouchers redemptions tend to run way below 100% and from what I understand there is a 24 month time frame and once you book you cannot make any changes and it is non transferable. I wouldn't be surprised if theses are redeemed at less than 70%. Guess this is why airlines and travel companies pressure you into thinking you have no choice but to accept a voucher.

 

[Bearval]

He's taking the loss because not every owner is giving him back the 70%, yet he's offering the voucher to every renter.

If the vouchers end up with a value of zero because the company goes out of business, it is what it is.... That doesn't make it a scam or a con. You can't expect the company to worry about making people whole if that act will lead them out of business. At the end of the day, everyone has to worry about their own well being first. That's why renters and owners are so mad. They are focusing on their own situation and want to be made whole.

Don't feel too bad for him. It is not as dire a situation for him as it seems. He took in say average of $20 per point from the renters, paid the owners 70% of an average of $15 which is $10.50. Say none of the owners give him back any money or allows him to re-rent the points. So now he issues vouchers which if they are redeemed at 100% (which is unlikely.) He has to shell out $15 per point for the vouchers that get redeemed.. So far he took in $20 but put out $25.50 for a negative of $5.50 per point. However, vouchers have a far less than 100% redemption rate and with from what I understand is 24 month expiration date and a no change rule and they are non transferable these may get redeemed at less than 70%. So he can wind up close to break even thru this mess.

 

[lawboy2001]

Just for clarification, credit card companies don't make the majority of their money from consumer's (you and me) who may pay interest. They make their money from the merchants (David's) who get charged 2-4% for every credit card transaction they process. If you paid David $1000, the credit card company gets about $30 off the top, and David gets $970.

I don't necessarily agree with you that the CC company will have a bias towards the side that they earn their revenue from, but if they did, they would be siding with David, not the renter.

Do you suppose that the 30$ the credit card company made from David in this transaction represents more money than they make from the renter, who may be their long standing cardholding customer? No? That was the other poster's point. The credit card company surely earns more revenue from their individual card holder who is disputing this rental transaction than they do from the merchant on the other side of the dispute, in this case, David's.

 

[CraigInPA]

Just for clarification, credit card companies don't make the majority of their money from consumer's (you and me) who may pay interest. They make their money from the merchants (David's) who get charged 2-4% for every credit card transaction they process. If you paid David $1000, the credit card company gets about $30 off the top, and David gets $970.

I don't necessarily agree with you that the CC company will have a bias towards the side that they earn their revenue from, but if they did, they would be siding with David, not the renter.

Having run a business that processes tens of millions of dollars in no-card-present internet sales, I can tell you that credit card issuers side with the card holder more than 99% of the time. The only time a merchant like me wins is when the card holder has a history of baseless disputes.

 

[Krandor]

He's taking the loss because not every owner is giving him back the 70%, yet he's offering the voucher to every renter.

If the vouchers end up with a value of zero because the company goes out of business, it is what it is.... That doesn't make it a scam or a con. You can't expect the company to worry about making people whole if that act will lead them out of business. At the end of the day, everyone has to worry about their own well being first. That's why renters and owners are so mad. They are focusing on their own situation and want to be made whole.

David's is not taking the loss. He's trying his best to not take any loss at all even a shared loss.

He wanted owners to pay him back their money. David now has 100% of the money the renter paid. Does the renter get it? Nope. They get a voucher with horrible terms that are designed to make it as likely as possible that is not be used.

Renters out a vacation and have a voucher that isn't designed to be used
Owner gets no money and has points that best case are worth less then they were before
David gets all the money.

Don't see how david is the loser in what he has setup.

 

[CanadaDisney05]

Having run a business that processes tens of millions of dollars in no-card-present internet sales, I can tell you that credit card issuers side with the card holder more than 99% of the time. The only time a merchant like me wins is when the card holder has a history of baseless disputes.

I'm in charge of finance of a company who deals with tens of millions as well and in the past 10 years have never lost a card dispute. Its all about having proper documentation.

Do you suppose that the 30$ the credit card company made from David in this transaction represents more money than they make from the renter, who may be their long standing cardholding customer? No? That was the other poster's point. The credit card company surely earns more revenue from their individual card holder who is disputing this rental transaction than they do from the merchant on the other side of the dispute, in this case, David's.

I do actually. Because they don't make only $30 off of your transaction from him. They get $30 from every $1000 of credit card transactions he processes. Which is a lot higher volume than the $120 per year annual fee and some interest you may pay if your not paying your card on time.

Again, I don't think they are actually taking into consideration who they earn more money from. I'm just informing that that is where the big money comes from.

 

[CraigInPA]

I'm in charge of finance of a company who deals with tens of millions as well and in the past 10 years have never lost a card dispute. Its all about having proper documentation.

I'll bet you are physically shipping a product and/or have card present transactions. Those are easy for a merchant to win.

But, I refuse to believe your assertion of zero. Any time a card holder claims their card was improperly used, even when a physical shipping has taken place to their house, the merchant loses.

I sell electronic goods in real time, never see a physical card, don't have a verifiable signature, and no way to verify the email address used is that of the card holder. I.e., impossible to win a chargeback.

In David's situation, he has sold a reservation that hasn't been delivered. He will likely lose chargeback disputes due to non-delivery of a purchased product, regardless of the "no refunds" policy.

 

[TCRAIG]

Assuming David and his family are point-rich, using their own points to make their customers whole is similar to using their cash savings. I don't think either renters or David care whether new rentals are set up with David's cash or David's future points. It would be great if David is willing to put his personal assets on the line to make his customers whole.

There is indeed a point limit set by Disney, a member can only amass 8,000 DVC points, with a maximum of 4,000 points at any one resort.

Moving cash to different accounts is not as easy as it sounds. I would think in bankruptcy court the judge would ask for the financial transactions of the business. Also, although David operates his rental empire as a sole proprietorship, I would think he set up business bank accounts to handle business transactions. He could of course declare a dividend and transfer funds to his personal accounts, but because of the sole proprietorship nature of his business, he may still need to surrender some of his assets to his creditors. A judge would not look kindly on a business owner that declared a large dividend just before his business went bankrupt.

Now, you may wonder who those creditors would be, since renters and owners are unlikely to file small claims in Ontario? It would be the very banks holding his business accounts, who are now pressured by credit card chargebacks.

As an interesting fact - I chose to send David a refund for one of my canceled reservations, because I was able to transfer those points to someone else within days from when they became available. His team advised me to return the 70% via PayPal to a different account than the one who paid me originally. Since they gave me the instructions in writing I don't worry too much about not fulfilling my contract, but it is a red flag which may indicate that some of his accounts, either PayPal or bank, may already be in withholding.

I refunded 2 reservations back to David’s via PayPal and it was the same account he used to pay me.

 

[Dracula]

I refunded 2 reservations back to David’s via PayPal and it was the same account he used to pay me.

Well, I double-checked. My original payment came from ”david”, and the repayment went to “team”. They both appear as Capitol Technologies, with the same avatar.

 

[Mumof4mice]

I'm in charge of finance of a company who deals with tens of millions as well and in the past 10 years have never lost a card dispute. Its all about having proper documentation.

Must be some pretty powerful proper documentation. If only we could all be as competent.

Any time a card holder claims their card was improperly used, even when a physical shipping has taken place to their house, the merchant loses.

This is our experience too. It's one of the easiest loopholes scammers exploit. I'm sure they share the hacks online, amongst their community. We've literally supplied signed paperwork, close up photos and CCTV footage as proof, and still lost CCs.