Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

So I, as an individual renter, should be okay with potentially throwing away thousands of dollars out of pity, but David’s, a company who is (was) arguably the leader in this space had no responsibility to have contingency plans for these kinds of things nor should they consider the financial plight of all their renters who are also living through this same pandemic.

It’s ironic that renters have been condescendingly told they should have got insurance (many did), known the risks of renting, etc. but David’s was fine to operate in this space for years apparently without a solid plan for this type of scenario or any proper insurance that could cover it.
Trip insurance probably would not have helped in this situation. Even as an owner, if you bought the trip insurance they are not paying out because owners have the option to move their lost points into RCI, so from Travelex's point of view you didn't lose your points, so no payout. Now I suppose if you have an impacted April UY maybe they got paid out from the insurance if they had it, but I haven't seen anyone post that they were reimbursed by Travelex.
 
They can't make unilateral changes to the contract, but if the renters click 'accept' to the voucher offer, the renter agrees to David's new terms and there is a new agreement with David's agreed to by both parties.
Thank you! In that case, earlier suggestions to ignore would be appropriate.
 
As the renter, how do I find the contact info for my owner? The only thing in my contract is their name and it's a pretty common name? Plus I have two owners listed on my contract.
 
I keep seeing where David's contracts state they are governed under Canada law. The state of Florida might differ. Especially given that Davids recognizes he is subject to Florida law when he registered with them. States generally have mechanisms in place to businesses from jurisdiction hopping to bypass their consumer laws. Or employment laws. Etc.
Davids DVC-RENTAL LLC is registered with the State of Florida as a Seller of Travel. Registration No. ST42053.
Im willing to bet you could file on him in Florida.

Someone mentioned that David's is listed as a sole proprietorship with the BBB. I looked at my contract with him, and it is with "David Mullett" so I believe I don't have a contract with any corporate entity.
 

Someone mentioned that David's is listed as a sole proprietorship with the BBB. I looked at my contract with him, and it is with "David Mullett" so I believe I don't have a contract with any corporate entity.
That LLC isn't David's, it's a different rental company.
 
In this case what is the “right” thing? Owners have only received 70% of the pay but renters have paid 100%. IMO owners and renters could bypass David’s but I would ask that the renter pay the remaining 30% as that is what the owners haven’t received. It’s of no concern to the owner that the renter have already paid 100%.
I think that has to be determined based on each individual's framework. But, thinking about it, this is what I would probably do (and this is entirely hypothetical, because I am not actually in this situation):

First, none of the parties are at fault. All three got caught in an unfortunate and painful situation. So, the moral principle I would try to follow is to "share the pain" as equitably as possible. Second, I assume an owner is never going to see that 30%, and a renter is never going to see either a reservation through or a refund from the broker. That's because I assume the broker goes out of business sooner rather than later. Third, based on the broker's actions, the broker has demonstrated no willingness to share the pain of either owners or renters--the broker putting themselves first and only. Given that, I no longer believe I am morally obligated to the broker. Fourth, I do not want to personally attend the theme parks before herd immunity is established or a vaccine is available.

Given those assumptions:

As a hypothetical owner, I would contact the renter and recommend that they pursue a chargeback. If they were unwilling or unsuccessful, I'd do what I could to work with the renter to rebook given the limitations on my points and the timeline of resorts opening. I'd also ask the renter to consider splitting the loss of the 30% with me, but I wouldn't insist on it--that would be a decision they have to make in their own framework. If the renter was unsuccessful in their chargeback and decided they did not want to go, I would be inclined to at least split the 70% with them--and would give them more if I had significant use of the points left--based on the "shared pain" principle.

If the renter were able to obtain a chargeback, I would wish them well, and ask that they consider splitting the 30% with me. Again, that would be their decision and one I cannot make for them. As we say around the tables in recovery, we don't take others' inventory.

As a hypothetical renter, I would pursue a chargeback the instant my check-in date passed, independently of whether the owner reaches out. If the chargeback is successful, and the owner reaches out, I would offer to split the owner's 30% loss and have us both call it a day. If the chargeback is unsuccessful, and the owner reached out, I would decline an offer to rebook. Instead, I'd ask the owner whether they'd be willing to share any of the 70% with me, and to consider how much use of the points they have remaining in making that decision.

------------------------
The most interesting question is what would I do if I were the hypothetical broker? I've not been putting myself in that perspective, but have instead been thinking from that of owners and renters. So, what would I do?

First, I would assume that, no matter what I do, a non-trivial number of renters are going to win chargebacks, and a non-trival number of owners will walk with both their points and the 70%. That means bankruptcy is inevitable. If that's true, then I am going to go through the pain of bankruptcy eventually. That puts me in a position to minimize shared pain by declaring bankruptcy earlier rather than later. If I declare, renters with travel insurance can collect on the supplier-default clause, including those with reservations in the future. The rest may or may not be made whole via chargebacks, but I can probably sleep at night, because they were advised to have insurance but declined.

In unwinding the company, I'd try to take whatever proceeds I still had and create as generous a severance package for my employees as I could, because they are probably facing the most pain out of the set of owners/renters/employees. Luckily, I am in Canada, so that doesn't have to include paying COBRA premiums. But, I would want to give them each several months of severance if I could, so that they have some chance of landing on their feet. Then, with the proceeds I had left, I would try to pay off the owners with check-in dates in the past to whom I still owe the 30%. I'm not sure how to best do that, because I probably don't have cash on hand to pay them all. Do I do it in order of expiration? Do I give each of them a percentage? Not sure. Maybe it all goes to employees depending on how much we are talking about. I may also have some obligations to past renters, who can't collect on their insurance--I was in business then, and their policies probably don't cover public health emergencies--and I don't know what to do there.

No matter how I made these decisions, I'd try to be transparent about them with all parties. For example, I would explain *why* I was declaring bankruptcy--to maximize the chance that they can be made whole through insurance. I would explain to everyone *why* I was paying my employees first. That way, even though this business is failing, there is a chance that I have enough good will left that I can start over with better thought-out policies to deal with these sorts of situations.
 
Credit can be used for any service offered by David's Vacation Club Rentals including but not limited to Point Rentals, Cash Bookings at Disney owned resorts, Cruise Bookings or Adventure by Disney bookings.

What is Cash Bookings at Disney owned resorts? Is this booking at any of the Resorts on property without points?
 
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As the renter, how do I find the contact info for my owner? The only thing in my contract is their name and it's a pretty common name? Plus I have two owners listed on my contract.
The plot thickens... surely David's doesn't combine points from multiple owners? I don't see how that could be possible because the renter would have two separate reservations and would possibly have to change rooms (would be hard to link two completely different reservations).

That would also turn the convoluted 3-way contracts into a tangled jumble of who knows what?

Maybe they are co-owners of the same DVC membership?
 
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I reached out to David’s about my April rental before Disney closed to see if they wanted to reschedule David contacted renters and informed them I was willing to reschedule
I also contacted the renter myself who was very happy I contacted them and had no idea about what was going on nor do they understand DVC
Weeks later David’s stop responding to renter - renter has forward emails to me from David’s
As far as I’m concerned I have their dates and plan on rebooking them - I hold no hope in getting my 30% on this rental - my point -David’s agreed in writing to me assisting this renter - the fact that he stopped communication does not change this - all parties agreed to change to documents - I am keeping my 70% and should get my 30% when they check in but doubt I will
I have a June and Sept rental - both are for large amount of points - my 30% will be over $2,000 - do I believe I will get it ? No and I will not accept a travel credit in place of my money - I will not cancel and will rebook if Disney is closed I also will tell David’s but I will not be doing a voucher and would advise renters not to take it.
I also have a rental for May with David’s that he refused to address with me after several emails - this rental is over $2,400 and yes I took insurance and no it’s not covered as the insurance clearly states it will not cover anything closed because if the Government - the hotel is Aulani which Hawaii is under stay until May 20 - hotel closed - flights cancelled - even if I could get there I would have to be confined to my hotel for 14 days and right back on plane - not allowed to leave room at all - well no room as hotel is closed - I gave him several chances to rebook then asked for refund - after final rude response I called Chase - per Chase they said I had a good case. We shall see.
As others have stated I’m not a lawyer but I do know you can’t change a signed contract unless all parties agree so his voucher is null and void and he should be told as such. It is an insult to all other parties involved and frankly I’m shocked as far as I’m concerned his ship has sunk and I really can’t say what I think he should do with his voucher as I would be kicked off the DiS!
I wish I would never have done any business with him - lesson learned going forward if I can’t use my points I plan to donate them!
Thank you all for all the wonderful help and advice in this thread !!! 👍
 
I think that has to be determined based on each individual's framework. But, thinking about it, this is what I would probably do (and this is entirely hypothetical, because I am not actually in this situation):

First, none of the parties are at fault. All three got caught in an unfortunate and painful situation. So, the moral principle I would try to follow is to "share the pain" as equitably as possible. Second, I assume an owner is never going to see that 30%, and a renter is never going to see either a reservation through or a refund from the broker. That's because I assume the broker goes out of business sooner rather than later. Third, based on the broker's actions, the broker has demonstrated no willingness to share the pain of either owners or renters--the broker putting themselves first and only. Given that, I no longer believe I am morally obligated to the broker. Fourth, I do not want to personally attend the theme parks before herd immunity is established or a vaccine is available.

Given those assumptions:

As a hypothetical owner, I would contact the renter and recommend that they pursue a chargeback. If they were unwilling or unsuccessful, I'd do what I could to work with the renter to rebook given the limitations on my points and the timeline of resorts opening. I'd also ask the renter to consider splitting the loss of the 30% with me, but I wouldn't insist on it--that would be a decision they have to make in their own framework. If the renter was unsuccessful in their chargeback and decided they did not want to go, I would be inclined to at least split the 70% with them--and would give them more if I had significant use of the points left--based on the "shared pain" principle.

If the renter were able to obtain a chargeback, I would wish them well, and ask that they consider splitting the 30% with me. Again, that would be their decision and one I cannot make for them. As we say around the tables in recovery, we don't take others' inventory.

As a hypothetical renter, I would pursue a chargeback the instant my check-in date passed, independently of whether the owner reaches out. If the chargeback is successful, and the owner reaches out, I would offer to split the owner's 30% loss and have us both call it a day. If the chargeback is unsuccessful, and the owner reached out, I would decline an offer to rebook. Instead, I'd ask the owner whether they'd be willing to share any of the 70% with me, and to consider how much use of the points they have remaining in making that decision.

------------------------
The most interesting question is what would I do if I were the hypothetical broker? I've not been putting myself in that perspective, but have instead been thinking from that of owners and renters. So, what would I do?

First, I would assume that, no matter what I do, a non-trivial number of renters are going to win chargebacks, and a non-trival number of owners will walk with both their points and the 70%. That means bankruptcy is inevitable. If that's true, then I am going to go through the pain of bankruptcy eventually. That puts me in a position to minimize shared pain by declaring bankruptcy earlier rather than later. If I declare, renters with travel insurance can collect on the supplier-default clause, including those with reservations in the future. The rest may or may not be made whole via chargebacks, but I can probably sleep at night, because they were advised to have insurance but declined.

In unwinding the company, I'd try to take whatever proceeds I still had and create as generous a severance package for my employees as I could, because they are probably facing the most pain out of the set of owners/renters/employees. Luckily, I am in Canada, so that doesn't have to include paying COBRA premiums. But, I would want to give them each several months of severance if I could, so that they have some chance of landing on their feet. Then, with the proceeds I had left, I would try to pay off the owners with check-in dates in the past to whom I still owe the 30%. I'm not sure how to best do that, because I probably don't have cash on hand to pay them all. Do I do it in order of expiration? Do I give each of them a percentage? Not sure. Maybe it all goes to employees depending on how much we are talking about. I may also have some obligations to past renters, who can't collect on their insurance--I was in business then, and their policies probably don't cover public health emergencies--and I don't know what to do there.

No matter how I made these decisions, I'd try to be transparent about them with all parties. For example, I would explain *why* I was declaring bankruptcy--to maximize the chance that they can be made whole through insurance. I would explain to everyone *why* I was paying my employees first. That way, even though this business is failing, there is a chance that I have enough good will left that I can start over with better thought-out policies to deal with these sorts of situations.
I like your solution. It gets the owners and renters talking. Each situation may be unique and how the parties can come to some agreement will differ.
 
How do you find the email address of the person you rented from? I’m interested in reaching out if need be.
 
First, I wanted to thank everyone on here for enlightening me on this process. I am going to try a chargeback and just wondering what info I should include in my dispute.

Would you recommend I include the voucher information? Or do I just stick to the original contract information since said travel accomodations were not provided.
 
I am not sure if Dave is DVC-rental LLC. Someone had posted Dave is a sole proprietor and there was no LLC in Canada. Did you check the assumed name act or something?
That came directly from Davids website I thought but it appears I grabbed the wrong one. Interestingly Davids doesnt list his on his website but you are required to have such registration in Florida when dealing with timeshare rentals.
 
First, I wanted to thank everyone on here for enlightening me on this process. I am going to try a chargeback and just wondering what info I should include in my dispute.

Would you recommend I include the voucher information? Or do I just stick to the original contract information since said travel accomodations were not provided.
I would also include the voucher, as it supplies evidence that you've asked for and not received a refund.
 
How do you find the email address of the person you rented from? I’m interested in reaching out if need be.
I'm pretty sure based on what I've read that your contract with David only gives you their name. If their name is not unique it will be pretty hard to track them down, and even then, you would have to work pretty hard to find them. Some renters have done this anyway.
 
First, I wanted to thank everyone on here for enlightening me on this process. I am going to try a chargeback and just wondering what info I should include in my dispute.

Would you recommend I include the voucher information? Or do I just stick to the original contract information since said travel accomodations were not provided.
Good luck!
 
As the renter, how do I find the contact info for my owner? The only thing in my contract is their name and it's a pretty common name? Plus I have two owners listed on my contract.
Take a look at the Rental Agreement email that you got from them after you paid for the rental. It may have been sent to you as a group email that included the owner. You might be able to contact the owner that way.
 
I think that has to be determined based on each individual's framework. But, thinking about it, this is what I would probably do (and this is entirely hypothetical, because I am not actually in this situation):

First, none of the parties are at fault. All three got caught in an unfortunate and painful situation. So, the moral principle I would try to follow is to "share the pain" as equitably as possible. Second, I assume an owner is never going to see that 30%, and a renter is never going to see either a reservation through or a refund from the broker. That's because I assume the broker goes out of business sooner rather than later. Third, based on the broker's actions, the broker has demonstrated no willingness to share the pain of either owners or renters--the broker putting themselves first and only. Given that, I no longer believe I am morally obligated to the broker. Fourth, I do not want to personally attend the theme parks before herd immunity is established or a vaccine is available.

Given those assumptions:

As a hypothetical owner, I would contact the renter and recommend that they pursue a chargeback. If they were unwilling or unsuccessful, I'd do what I could to work with the renter to rebook given the limitations on my points and the timeline of resorts opening. I'd also ask the renter to consider splitting the loss of the 30% with me, but I wouldn't insist on it--that would be a decision they have to make in their own framework. If the renter was unsuccessful in their chargeback and decided they did not want to go, I would be inclined to at least split the 70% with them--and would give them more if I had significant use of the points left--based on the "shared pain" principle.

If the renter were able to obtain a chargeback, I would wish them well, and ask that they consider splitting the 30% with me. Again, that would be their decision and one I cannot make for them. As we say around the tables in recovery, we don't take others' inventory.

As a hypothetical renter, I would pursue a chargeback the instant my check-in date passed, independently of whether the owner reaches out. If the chargeback is successful, and the owner reaches out, I would offer to split the owner's 30% loss and have us both call it a day. If the chargeback is unsuccessful, and the owner reached out, I would decline an offer to rebook. Instead, I'd ask the owner whether they'd be willing to share any of the 70% with me, and to consider how much use of the points they have remaining in making that decision.

------------------------
The most interesting question is what would I do if I were the hypothetical broker? I've not been putting myself in that perspective, but have instead been thinking from that of owners and renters. So, what would I do?

First, I would assume that, no matter what I do, a non-trivial number of renters are going to win chargebacks, and a non-trival number of owners will walk with both their points and the 70%. That means bankruptcy is inevitable. If that's true, then I am going to go through the pain of bankruptcy eventually. That puts me in a position to minimize shared pain by declaring bankruptcy earlier rather than later. If I declare, renters with travel insurance can collect on the supplier-default clause, including those with reservations in the future. The rest may or may not be made whole via chargebacks, but I can probably sleep at night, because they were advised to have insurance but declined.

In unwinding the company, I'd try to take whatever proceeds I still had and create as generous a severance package for my employees as I could, because they are probably facing the most pain out of the set of owners/renters/employees. Luckily, I am in Canada, so that doesn't have to include paying COBRA premiums. But, I would want to give them each several months of severance if I could, so that they have some chance of landing on their feet. Then, with the proceeds I had left, I would try to pay off the owners with check-in dates in the past to whom I still owe the 30%. I'm not sure how to best do that, because I probably don't have cash on hand to pay them all. Do I do it in order of expiration? Do I give each of them a percentage? Not sure. Maybe it all goes to employees depending on how much we are talking about. I may also have some obligations to past renters, who can't collect on their insurance--I was in business then, and their policies probably don't cover public health emergencies--and I don't know what to do there.

No matter how I made these decisions, I'd try to be transparent about them with all parties. For example, I would explain *why* I was declaring bankruptcy--to maximize the chance that they can be made whole through insurance. I would explain to everyone *why* I was paying my employees first. That way, even though this business is failing, there is a chance that I have enough good will left that I can start over with better thought-out policies to deal with these sorts of situations.
Thank you for taking the time to write such a well-thought post. I agree that the framework you are suggesting may work, but would still like to point a few pitfalls:

As a renter, pursuing a chargeback may ruin the chance of getting a voucher, and not getting the money back either. David seems to insist that his reservations are non-refundable, and he may prevail in court. It may be best to wait to understand how other chargeback actions have gone.

As an owner, rebooking or reimbursing the renter goes against the contract the owner has with David. As long as David upholds his part of the contract, there is no good reason for an owner to breach.

As a broker, David operated under his own name, and any bankruptcy proceeding would need to be a personal bankruptcy. Also, Ontario does not have COBRA, but has an ESA law about how much severance employees need to get (and it is quite a lot after 5 years of employment). Furthermore, once bankruptcy is declared I think David would actually be prohibited from reimbursing any of his creditors (owner, renters, landlords etc) without the express approval of the bankruptcy court.
 



















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