Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[merry_nbright]

Correct.

oh my word, you just MADE MY DAY!
I can rebook then at Caribbean Beach Resort for my dates and use all my travel credit without the hassle. I’m going to cry. YOU ROCK!!!

 

[Sandisw]

oh my word, you just MADE MY DAY!
I can rebook then at Caribbean Beach Resort for my dates and use all my travel credit without the hassle. I’m going to cry. YOU ROCK!!!

Yes, just know that it doesn’t give you the benefits of cancellation as a cash guest, You would still be bound by the no cancel rule, and be prepared for the possibility that the rate he quotes you may be rack rate and not include any discounts,

But, I hope it works out for you!

 

[Grnl706]

Yes, just know that it doesn’t give you the benefits of cancellation as a cash guest, You would still be bound by the no cancel rule, and be prepared for the possibility that the rate he quotes you may be rack rate and not include any discounts,

But, I hope it works out for you!

That's actually a good point. If you take a cash booking and Disney has a discount, you can't change ANYTHING and may end up paying more.

 

[merry_nbright]

Yes, just know that it doesn’t give you the benefits of cancellation as a cash guest, You would still be bound by the no cancel rule, and be prepared for the possibility that the rate he quotes you may be rack rate and not include any discounts,

But, I hope it works out for you!

It really did! I figured there would be no discounts and we don’t plan on cancelling. It just gives me so many more options and I don’t have to worry about points or availability or anything like that. Tears of joy, my friend. I was so beyond stressed about this, but this has helped me in so many ways. I’d much rather stay at a moderate then be put into a DVC room I don’t really want for only part of my trip.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

As long as David upholds his part of the contract, there is no good reason for an owner to breach.

I agree that owners should be careful about breaching the contract (even with good intentions), which could put them at increased legal risk.

That said, there seems to be some question whether David's has upheld his part of the contract. Depending on how one interprets the 30% being paid on the date of check-in (whether or not the renter checks in), you could argue that he's in breach for not paying owners the remaining 30%.

I understand the argument that because resorts were closed, the renter couldn't check in. But there hasn't been a legal determination whether the "date of check-in" is still the date they were supposed to check in. That's when the contract establishes that the 30% will be paid.

Normally, if the renter is a no-show, the 30% is still payable on the date they were supposed to check in. The contract establishes that the date of check-in is when the 30% is payable. If there were other reasons the renter couldn't check in, the date that their check-in was supposed to occur doesn't change and the owner gets paid.

This establishes a precedent (along with marketing material boasting that the owner gets paid whether the renter checks in or not). The contract didn't provide the caveat that this only applies if the renter cannot check-in because of some reasons but not others.

This, again boils down to poorly written contracts that didn't clearly take resort closures into account.

 

[Brian Noble]

As a renter, pursuing a chargeback may ruin the chance of getting a voucher, and not getting the money back either.

I think that's correct. However, because I assume that the broker will be out of business shortly, I put zero value on the voucher.

As an owner, rebooking or reimbursing the renter goes against the contract the owner has with David.

Agreed. However, I would no longer feel beholden to that contract based on the broker's actions to date. I believe working directly with the renter is morally preferable to trying to honor that contract. I think the chances of the broker obtaining relief from me are low, and would be willing to take that chance. Someone in a different risk position might choose differently.

As a broker, David operated under his own name, and any bankruptcy proceeding would need to be a personal bankruptcy. Also, Ontario does not have COBRA, but has an ESA law about how much severance employees need to get (and it is quite a lot after 5 years of employment). Furthermore, once bankruptcy is declared I think David would actually be prohibited from reimbursing any of his creditors (owner, renters, landlords etc) without the express approval of the bankruptcy court.

Thanks for the background on Canadian employement law; I did not know that! Yes, it would be a personal bankrupty. But, in my hypothetical I believe that to be inevitable. In that case, minimize-/share-pain suggests that the sooner I do that, the better for reasons I suggested above. Plus, it leaves more resources for me to meet my obligations to my employees which, as a business owner, I would want to meet first.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

It really did! I figured there would be no discounts and we don’t plan on cancelling. It just gives me so many more options and I don’t have to worry about points or availability or anything like that. Tears of joy, my friend. I was so beyond stressed about this, but this has helped me in so many ways. I’d much rather stay at a moderate then be put into a DVC room I don’t really want for only part of my trip.

I really don't want to be a downer, but one additional concern to consider... if you accept the voucher and use it for a "cash stay" (no points involved), you still have to make sure you understand these clauses from his terms and conditions:

Any Reservation booked using the Credit is FINAL SALE – NO EXCEPTIONS. This includes, but is not limited to, date modification, resale and changes to the Guest names used for the original booking.

In the event of a global pandemic, natural disaster, force Majeure or any other event outside the reasonable control of David's Vacation Club Rentals, this Credit remains non-refundable and no modification, cancelations or rebooking will be permitted.

In other words, even if you don't cancel, if resorts are still closed, or close again on your dates, you are out of luck.

 

[Amymouse13]

So this whole PayPal chargeback thing to owners... Say what? What if you close that PayPal account? Move any money out and yeah good luck David??

 

[McCrae]

So this whole PayPal chargeback thing to owners... Say what? What if you close that PayPal account? Move any money out and yeah good luck David??

Pay Pal charge back is not available for this type of transaction.

 

[Amymouse13]

Pay Pal charge back is not available for this type of transaction.

I thought owners were concerned David's would come after them? I suppose for the 70% under breach of contract.

 

[merry_nbright]

I really don't want to be a downer, but one additional concern to consider... if you accept the voucher and use it for a "cash stay" (no points involved), you still have to make sure you understand these clauses from his terms and conditions:

Sadly, I’m out of luck if I don’t agree with it, anyways. So, why not go to a resort I want that I don’t really need to worry about availability? This is truly the best option for me.

 

[McCrae]

I thought owners were concerned David's would come after them? I suppose for the 70% under breach of contract.

Real Estate related transactions are exempted by Pal Pal for payment protection.
As long as owners don’t break the terms of the contract they have with David’s he has No claim against them.

 

[starry_solo]

I thought owners were concerned David's would come after them? I suppose for the 70% under breach of contract.

PayPal doesn't cover timeshare transactions....which really means for the person that got the funds from David's, they are SOL. PayPal will point to their clause that they don't cover those transactions, which means the owner should not have received the funds from David's.

This should also work for the renter, because David's shouldn't have received the funds from the renter that way. There is a thread here or in *********** that someone who used PayPal for timeshare transactions (as the one receiving the funds) got their account frozen until the $13,000 was returned.

The prior poster seems to think that since PayPal doesn't cover timeshare transactions, they won't become involved. But the problem is, if the transaction itself is VOID (under PayPal policies), the person who sent the money is the one who is made whole by PayPal.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

I thought owners were concerned David's would come after them? I suppose for the 70% under breach of contract.

If he does, I think owners would make the case that he already breached the contract by not paying the remaining 30% on the "date of check-in, whether or not the renter checked-in."

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

The only thing Dave has at stake is the commission. And a good argument it was earned. Dave also has the commission in his hand. He does not need to be made whole and it certainly appears that Dave is determined to remain whole while others sink.

 

[McCrae]

Where in Pay Pals conditions does it state they will void a transaction and return funds to the originator for a time share related transaction?

 

[Amymouse13]

I'm not talking about renter paid with PayPal, was related to of owners worked with renter if David would go after the owner and get back from PayPal... So like what if they closed account lol...

Another note, did every renter impacted get the voucher email? I didn't but we also did chargeback back in March as soon as the owner cancelled them. We would have checked in yesterday.

I'm in the David's owes me boat .

 

[banzai75]

How much does Dave make off of these transactions besides the $133 booking fee?

 

[Madame]

Where in Pay Pals conditions does it state they will void a transaction and return funds to the originator for a time share related transaction?

For me it was more the interpretation that owners are the « sellers » and David’s the « buyer » and $ would be returned to the buyer. I think most of these types of sites side with the purchaser of the goods/services. I’m not sure about the whole Timeshare aspect.

 

[piccolopat]

I keep seeing where David's contracts state they are governed under Canada law. The state of Florida might differ. Especially given that Davids recognizes he is subject to Florida law when he registered with them. States generally have mechanisms in place to businesses from jurisdiction hopping to bypass their consumer laws. Or employment laws. Etc.
Davids DVC-RENTAL LLC is registered with the State of Florida as a Seller of Travel. Registration No. ST42053.
Im willing to bet you could file on him in Florida.

I would try to file a complaint with the state of Florida. If David's doesn't do right by renters and owners alike, Florida could revoke their registration and not allow him to do business in the state any longer. That would be powerful leverage to force him to do the right thing here. Renters whose reservations could not be honored should be reimbursed in cash. Owners should have their points returned (whether they have value or not at this point in time is a different issue IMHO). David's may or may not be able to retain their commission but I would venture to guess no. There may be a non-cancellation clause with no refund, but that could never have been reasonably expected to apply in cases where the resort closed down through no fault of owners or renters. David's wrote the contract so any deficiencies in the contract are his problem to bear.