Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[BWV Dreamin]

All I can say is I love AMEX. They have immediately removed any disputed charges from my bill. Customer service is beyond wonderful. Lucky for me it has been accepted at most businesses I shop. I find its the doctor offices that dont take this card for payment.

 

[YourEveryDayAdam]

deleted

 

[Amymouse13]

I think one shady aspect of the vouchers is reading the news at least California is talking about no sporting events next fall... What does this mean for Disney? David's voucher program says you make a new reservation and you agree if the park is closed you don't get a refund for real - at least I think that's what I read... Basically a way for them to fix their bad contract and avoid losing money if the parks stay closed an extended period of time or a second nationwide closure occurs... No dice for us, we put in chargeback weeks ago.

 

[ziravan]

I understand that the point of the voucher program is to try to stop the chargebacks, but the end result is that it’s going to force even more chargebacks as more people determine that’s the only recourse available to them to seek a refund.

 

[merry_nbright]

I understand that the point of the voucher program is to try to stop the chargebacks, but the end result is that it’s going to force even more chargebacks as more people determine that’s the only recourse available to them to seek a refund.

Exactly. The more I sit and think about things, I seriously just want to cancel and rebook through Disney. This stress isn’t worth it.

 

[Amymouse13]

I understand that the point of the voucher program is to try to stop the chargebacks, but the end result is that it’s going to force even more chargebacks as more people determine that’s the only recourse available to them to seek a refund.

I think part of David's ploy is to get people to agree to take voucher and waive rights to chargeback...

 

[McCrae]

Wine futures are actual purchases, it’s basically wine maturing in barrel that haven’t been bottled for release. So it should be the same goods not delivered. The merchant was supposed to take my money to buy the wine that I designated. Instead he took the money to fill other people‘s orders. He also bought a few houses, a boat, and paid for some “internet dates“ if I remember correctly. anyways...

The scope of chargebacks you described certainly put it in perspective. This is really straight forward - the average processor isn’t going to understand dvc point system and analyze a contract. They see no check in, not the renter‘s fault, vendor refused refund.

Renters really ought to go for chargebacks. If you chargeback you will most likely win and you get your money back. In the small chance that you lose, you get the voucher.

There is nothing to lose trying the chargeback option.

 

[najgreen]

Has anyone had success with their travel insurance? I am a renter with a week at Aulani early June that I expect will be cancelled. I have travel insurance but they are taking it on a "case by case basis" and won't review mine until I actually file a claim. I can't file a claim until I get the notification from Davids that it has been cancelled. I found the owners through facebook and sent them a message to see what the status of their points were and if they would be willing to reschedule for me, but they are not responding. So, was curious if those that have already had their stays cancelled and had insurance were able to make successful insurance claims?

 

[foodiddiedoo]

Has anyone had success with their travel insurance? I am a renter with a week at Aulani early June that I expect will be cancelled. I have travel insurance but they are taking it on a "case by case basis" and won't review mine until I actually file a claim. I can't file a claim until I get the notification from Davids that it has been cancelled. I found the owners through facebook and sent them a message to see what the status of their points were and if they would be willing to reschedule for me, but they are not responding. So, was curious if those that have already had their stays cancelled and had insurance were able to make successful insurance claims?

Just as an FYI my April 18th stay at Aulani was only canceled by Disney on this Tuesday despite Aulani being closed for almost a month at this point. Don't expect Disney to cancel your reservation until within about 5-6 days of check in.

 

[foodiddiedoo]

Has anyone actually received an email from David's on the credit that he's been promising today? I know it's still early on the West Coast, but was curious.

 

[foodiddiedoo]

I reiterate that I am not a lawyer and i'm not providing legal advice.

This is correct. Each "investigator" is simply someone processing a form...checking the boxes...the "logic" of who wins is determined by an algorithm, and it's mostly done by computers. Simply because of the sheer volume. They certainly don't have time to read the contract, they don't have the legal skills/training to make an actual determination of who should win in light of that contract. In the case of a chargeback from a "product/service not delivered complaint" it simply comes down to "can the merchant provide evidence that the product was delivered?" If yes, the merchant wins. If no, then the purchaser wins. Again...it's HIGHLY bureaucratic.

If it requires any more actual investigation/argument/contracts etc. then they will simply say that they've made their decision and if you disagree, take the other guy to court.

So, for the renters who file a chargeback against David's, my opinion on how things will play out is: the credit card companies will take their money back and they will see it on their credit card statement. David's can contest the chargeback saying "no refunds policy", but since it's an "item/service not delivered" complaint, I believe that the only thing that will enable David's to win the chargeback would be some kind of evidence that the product was delivered...this might be a statement from DVC saying the reservation was valid and wasn't checked in...etc. Obviously he won't be able to produce that since it doesn't exist and I believe that he would lose the charge back.

At that point, David's only recourse to "keep" the money from the renter would be to then file a lawsuit against them and win it. I've read the two contracts on David's website and I don't believe he would be able to actually be successful here either. In my opinion, the contract between the renter and David's becomes void once the reservation can no longer be delivered. It may also be a bad idea for David's to open that can of worms...I'm not an expert on consumer law in Canada...and again, i'm not a lawyer...this is not legal advice...this is only my personal opinion...etc...but he might open himself up to a counter suit...the renter might be able to claim that because the contract was cancelled through no fault of their own David's owes them for related losses/expenses...non refundable flights, lost vacation time, costs of alternative accommodations, etc.

The other issue on David's being able to actually file a lawsuit against anyone is that i'm guessing most of David's customers and the DVC owners he works with are in the USA. He's operating a business in Canada. His contract states that everything is to be litigated in Canada. He can file a suit, but would likely have a hard time winning a judgement. But even if he did get a judgement, if the person he is suing is in the USA with no assets/job in Canada, he would have no way to enforce the judgement and collect any money, without then trying to get the judgement in Canada recognized by a United States Court that has jurisdiction over the person they are trying to sue. This is an exceptionally expensive process with not a good chance of actually recovering any money. I don't think it's really done unless there is a dispute that involves more than tens of thousands of dollars with a good chance that you can actually recover something.

How long does it usually take from A-Z for a chargeback? I've only ever filed a dispute when someone stole my credit card number and charged a few thousand to TJMAXX and that was resolved immediately since the bank closed that card, sent me a new one, and immediately removed the charges. I filed my dispute on Tuesday, still haven't received any emails etc from my credit card issuer,but I do have a Case Number. Is this usual?

 

[starry_solo]

How long does it usually take from A-Z for a chargeback? I've only ever filed a dispute when someone stole my credit card number and charged a few thousand to TJMAXX and that was resolved immediately since the bank closed that card, sent me a new one, and immediately removed the charges. I filed my dispute on Tuesday, still haven't received any emails etc from my credit card issuer,but I do have a Case Number. Is this usual?

yes. its been a while since I’ve had to file a chargeback and I did it online. But I got all correspondence regarding the chargeback via snail mail

 

[Dracula]

How long does it usually take from A-Z for a chargeback? I've only ever filed a dispute when someone stole my credit card number and charged a few thousand to TJMAXX and that was resolved immediately since the bank closed that card, sent me a new one, and immediately removed the charges. I filed my dispute on Tuesday, still haven't received any emails etc from my credit card issuer,but I do have a Case Number. Is this usual?

I have received a credit on the account immediately after submitting the dispute online with the Chase Sapphire Reserve card.

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

Again I find myself grateful for your thoughtful and reasoned posts.

This is the first post of yours that I am not in total agreement with. I believe 'no party to a contract has a responsibility to mitigate damages to another party' is an overstatement.

The more complicated disagreement is on a point not directly addressed. In the event someone actually went to court on this I can see the key phrase as being '30% being due on the day of check in'. It may seem that this means the day check in is supposed to take place; that the contract states it will take place.
Yet I can also see a case where a judge rules check in is not just an idea but an actual act. That 'check in' is the key to every parties expectations of the contract(s). So if no check in is available nor allowed then there is no 'date of check in'.

With the resort closed clearly no judge will require a plaintiff to actually travel to disney and attempt to check in. Check in is clearly impossible so the expense of attempting to check in would be wasted, and if a renter sued for those expenses they would never be allowed no matter the result of the case. Impossible means a lot in contract law. Frustration of the contract means something. How an individual judge interprets something is really pot luck in a case like this.

If check in is impossible, and it is now, at a minimum it puts the 30% into play because the purpose of the hold back is not clearly spelled out imo. The 30% being in play means a link is established to go after the the 70%. This gets very complicated very fast costing a great deal of money.

This is highly fact dependent. I can not imagine a judge allowing an owner who got the initial payment, then cancelled the reservation and was able to reuse the points to win.

In general I think people are confusing the purpose of the 30%. IMO it is simply to stop owners from cancelling reservation. Consumer protection is just another complication. More complicated there are a lot of states and foreign governments in play.

It is really import to underline what you state at the end. Law supersede contracts terms. Even DVC contracts. Even with 'owners'.

Under US law, no party to a contract has a responsibility to mitigate damages to another party.

You've also greatly simplified the relationship of the parties, which is how a court would determine who takes the loss.

The owner has a separate agreement with David's which laid out the number of points, when they expire, and how much David's is to pay and when. The payment terms are 70% of the fee at booking, and 30% on check-in day, regardless of whether the renter checks in. David's has, apparently, breached that agreement by withholding the 30% payment for rentals which occurred when the resort was closed, and is asking owners to re-book and wait on that payment until the new reservation check in date or to refund the deposit payment. While the resort closure we now face was not contemplated by the contract, the broker, who drafted the contract, knew that such a situation could and has occurred in the past. If the situation was known, and the broker chose not to include it in the agreement, he cannot then unilaterally re-write the agreement to benefit himself. David's owes the final payment on the original check-in date. Period. Full Stop. Anything else the owner and David's agrees to do is open to negotiation, not what David's says will happen.

The renter has an agreement for a room reservation with a no-refunds and no-changes clause. Strictly under the contract terms, the renter is losing everything. Under consumer protection laws which may be in effect based upon where the parties are located, which supersede the contract terms, the renter is due a full refund. David's has offered a voucher program instead of refunds. Whether that is legal under Canadian law is a question that hasn't been addressed.

 

[disneykins]

Everyone here seems to think David is going bankrupt. On his facebook page there is nothing but praise for how he is handling this situation, not one negative post out of 100+ comments. I've read about 30 pages on this thread and haven't read one positive one. Strange.
I am an owner and have used David with no problems. I only have one small contract so I don't have much money at risk. Someone just rented from me for Halloween, got my 70% and have confidence that if the Ressie cant be completed, David will work it out.
Some on here have thousands of points and rent almost exclusively, so I can understand their concern. Kinda like all those MBAs coming out of college and buying condos in NYC to use as Air BnBs, going to have trouble making mortgag payments now.

 

[waltonmkb]

I have a reservation thru David's starting May 18th so I can't do anything until then. If he goes bankrupt between now and then, am I out of luck as far as a chargeback?

 

[Sandisw]

Everyone here seems to think David is going bankrupt. On his facebook page there is nothing but praise for how he is handling this situation, not one negative post out of 100+ comments. I've read about 30 pages on this thread and haven't read one positive one. Strange.
I am an owner and have used David with no problems. I only have one small contract so I don't have much money at risk. Someone just rented from me for Halloween, got my 70% and have confidence that if the Ressie cant be completed, David will work it out.
Some on here have thousands of points and rent almost exclusively, so I can understand their concern. Kinda like all those MBAs coming out of college and buying condos in NYC to use as Air BnBs, going to have trouble making mortgag payments now.

He is deleting all negative comments. He is only leaving those that praise him.

 

[GoingSince1990]

I have a reservation thru David's starting May 18th so I can't do anything until then. If he goes bankrupt between now and then, am I out of luck as far as a chargeback?

As others have pointed out, if you have used a credit card to pay for something that ended up not being provided, you have a legal right to a chargeback even if the merchant goes bankrupt. There is a much more detailed post earlier in this thread about who exactly will end up paying in this circumstance, but whether it's Visa, Mastercard, the card processors, or the issuing banks, the upshot is that it won't be you, assuming your dispute is successful, which it likely will be. Part of the fee that the credit cards charge to process payments is to go towards the payment of successful future chargebacks.

 

[waltfan1957]

Dont you have all of the renters contact info when making the reservation going through David? You have to because the owner has to make the reservation.

 

[TheWheel]

Everyone here seems to think David is going bankrupt. On his facebook page there is nothing but praise for how he is handling this situation, not one negative post out of 100+ comments. I've read about 30 pages on this thread and haven't read one positive one. Strange.
I am an owner and have used David with no problems. I only have one small contract so I don't have much money at risk. Someone just rented from me for Halloween, got my 70% and have confidence that if the Ressie cant be completed, David will work it out.
Some on here have thousands of points and rent almost exclusively, so I can understand their concern. Kinda like all those MBAs coming out of college and buying condos in NYC to use as Air BnBs, going to have trouble making mortgag payments now.

For one Davids has been removing negative posts from their facebook. The reality is that the people on this board are more engaged in this discussion compared to a passive renter. They may think it's awesome that their non refundable vacation is just going to be postponed and all will be well with the world in a month when the economy reopens and they will then get everything they paid for a month later. Talk to me in a few months or years after this is all over and we'll see their opionions then.