Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

People need to wake up.
Per their lawyers:
View attachment 488399
Interesting. However, neither David's or their retained attorneys, Lerners LLP, cannot unilaterally deem the contract as frustrated. This would need to be determined by the courts of law in Ontario that have jurisdiction over the contract.
Furthermore, a finding of frustration does not immediately create a liability for the owner for the 70% downpayment. The legal consequence of a contract which is found to have been frustrated is that the contract is automatically terminated at the point of frustration. The contract is not void ab initio; only future obligations are discharged. You are likely to lose the remaining 30% payment, but an argument can be made that the owner executed his part of the agreement by providing a confirmed reservation to the renter, via the intermediary.
 
I understand David might be deleting negative posts. But when I see 100% positive posts there and 100% negative posts somewhere else, I wonder if both are deleting what suits them. Remember, the other major rental company is owned by these boards and I'm not seeing anything negative about them. Just saying.

Here are the Disboards, unless a post violates the guidelines, members are free to post,

Nothing is deleted unless it is a violation of the rules.
 
Interesting. However, neither David's or their retained attorneys, Lerners LLP, cannot unilaterally deem the contract as frustrated. This would need to be determined by the courts of law in Ontario that have jurisdiction over the contract.
Furthermore, a finding of frustration does not immediately create a liability for the owner of the 70% downpayment. The legal consequence of a contract which is found to have been frustrated is that the contract is automatically terminated at the point of frustration. The contract is not void ab initio; only future obligations are discharged. You are likely to lose the remaining 30% payment, but an argument can be done that the owner executed his part of the agreement by providing a confirmed reservation for the renter, through the intermediary.
Yes, but they believe that I am too naive/stupid to question them. We know Lerners... My DH is in investments in Ontario... I would never deal with David’s again. I cannot believe that they think owners are that dumb that we’ll just accept their word and fork over the cash no matter the state of the points. They’ve had my points tied up since last summer!! And the whole PayPal aspect is a concern now as well. We’ll be giving them back the funds via bank draft sent registered mail. Then DONE. It’s not worth my time or effort at the moment.
 
I got an email from David's today to book a reservation for the fall. Not many points so not much risk? Is it worth it?

LOL. Why would you even consider doing business with him? See the post from Madame a few higher, where he is telling owners that he wants all the money back for the "non-refundable" reservations. I doubt he'll be in business to pay you by the time that reservation check in date arrives.
 

I got an email from David's today to book a reservation for the fall. Not many points so not much risk? Is it worth it?
First off there is very little inventory for the fall in studios. Second, I thought I read somewhere if you reschedule and the resort closes again you may not reschedule another trip. Is that true?

ETA: opps... didn't realize that you're being contacted to put a rental together. IMO, no I would not do this. Rent the points yourself and make ALL the money. As we have clearly learned brokers don't protect anyone from anything. Tons of examples out there for what to put in your contract and lots of places you can find renters. I don't think the DIS has a "wanted" board (not sure), but other boards have these types of places on their boards to find renters.
 
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First off there is very little inventory for the fall in studios. Second, I thought I read somewhere if you reschedule and the resort closes again you may not reschedule another trip. Is that true?

ETA: opps... didn't realize that you're being contacted to put a rental together. IMO, no I would not do this. Rent the points yourself and make ALL the money. As we have clearly learned brokers don't protect anyone from anything. Tons of examples out there for what to put in your contract and lots of places you can find renters. I don't think the DIS has a "wanted" board (not sure), but other boards have these types of places on their boards to find renters.

We do not have wanted boards, People may respond to those offer points for reservations or transfers!
 
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Yes, but they believe that I am too naive/stupid to question them. We know Lerners... My DH is in investments in Ontario... I would never deal with David’s again. I cannot believe that they think owners are that dumb that we’ll just accept their word and fork over the cash no matter the state of the points. They’ve had my points tied up since last summer!! And the whole PayPal aspect is a concern now as well. We’ll be giving them back the funds via bank draft sent registered mail. Then DONE. It’s not worth my time or effort at the moment.

actually, has it been six months since they sent you payment via PayPal? If not, open the transaction and click on refund. Paper trail through PayPal that way
 
I think that those who believe their money to be safe if they’ve been paid the 70% via PayPal had better think again. AFAIK, nothing is stopping PP disputes from David’s against owners. Correct me if I am wrong...
 
actually, has it been six months since they sent you payment via PayPal? If not, open the transaction and click on refund. Paper trail through PayPal that way
Perfect thanks! I wasn’t looking forward to going into the bank with everything that’s going on.
 
I think if that those who believe their money to be safe if they’ve been paid the 70% via PayPal had better think again. AFAIK, nothing is stopping PP disputes from David’s against owners. Correct me if I am wrong...

did he send as a gift (friends and family) or as services? If services then can easily dispute six months after payment. As friends, can dispute through bank (unless he paid using a credit card)...
 
did he send as a gift (friends and family) or as services? If services then can easily dispute six months after payment. As friends, can dispute through bank (unless he paid using a credit card)...
Pretty sure G&S. So renters file a charge back, he files a dispute & owners are left holding the whole empty bag...
 
It is specifically not force maeure. Acts of Godand governmental action"
It does not matter if it is in the contract or not. Law beats contract.

Again, owner is RW&A, but check in is prevented by...... GOVERNMENTAL ACTION. Nobody did anything wrong. It is not about winning or losing nor have I seen it mentioned before. If this is repetitive I apologize.

I am not taking sides.

It is specifically force majeure and the point is moot as I told you earlier. I simply disagree with you. You're free to believe whatever you wish.
 
I doubt the rental market is going to change. People love disney. People want to save money.
What is going to change is the brokers market will change. Less brokers, and less people who trust brokers.
To me it has always been better and safer to find a good owner to rent from then a broker.


Rental Market will change at minimum for the short-term IMO for the next year+ all depending how COVID19 is or isnt controlled in the future. When there is a return to some type of normalcy, the rental market will strengthen but be changed. Just not sure how.
 
Does anyone really think Disney will be open this fall??

At first, I thought yes, but based on what I've been reading/hearing, it seems more and more unlikely. Orlando's economy is expected to be one of the hardest hit in the country.
 
Does anyone really think Disney will be open this fall??
I haven't read through the whole 73 pages of posts, so maybe this was already discussed earlier, does David's contract have information in it about the resorts being open, but the parks being closed? It would seem like most renters would not want to travel to WDW or DL if the parks aren't open.
 
I haven't read through the whole 73 pages of posts, so maybe this was already discussed earlier, does David's contract have information in it about the resorts being open, but the parks being closed? It would seem like most renters would not want to travel to WDW or DL if the parks aren't open.

Someone asked last page about booking a new reservation this fall... Seems like if you don't think Disney will be open then why walk back into this *ell from past 73 pages?? But just me...
 
Interesting blog post over at www.disneytouristblog.com (google it) regarding DVC's point pool problem. Tom speculates that Disney may very well come up with solutions to help out DVC owners, such as opening up inventory on the resort side, which may very well be more readily available for the next several years. I think he makes some sound points. DVC owners are among Disney's most loyal, and it behooves Disney to both keep them happy and have them coming to Disney to stay and spend money.

Could David's be banking on many, if not all, owners being able to recover their points (with enough time to use them) once Disney is able to open back up and address these issues? It's not totally unrealistic to think this could happen.

I can understand why many are frustrated with David's. I'm a June renter and am certainly concerned with the prospect of being offered a potentially useless voucher (I'll likely try the chargeback route first). That being said, I don't really blame David's for their approach. Likely the only way they stay in business is to convince enough owners to return funds and enough renters to accept vouchers. Setting aside any contractual issues for a moment, it certainly seems that owners who are able to recover their points with plenty of time to use them aren't ultimately harmed by refunding David's. Maybe I should say "aren't ultimately harmed in the long run". I can appreciate some owners may not actually have the cash currently available to refund David's.

I'm certainly not taking David's side against the owners. I'm sympathetic to owners who rented out points that have or will expire soon and could lose out by refunding David's. I'm just wondering whether, when this process is ultimately able to play itself out, most owners will be offered a reasonable solution by Disney.
 
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I reiterate that I am not a lawyer and i'm not providing legal advice.

This is correct. Each "investigator" is simply someone processing a form...checking the boxes...the "logic" of who wins is determined by an algorithm, and it's mostly done by computers. Simply because of the sheer volume. They certainly don't have time to read the contract, they don't have the legal skills/training to make an actual determination of who should win in light of that contract. In the case of a chargeback from a "product/service not delivered complaint" it simply comes down to "can the merchant provide evidence that the product was delivered?" If yes, the merchant wins. If no, then the purchaser wins. Again...it's HIGHLY bureaucratic.

If it requires any more actual investigation/argument/contracts etc. then they will simply say that they've made their decision and if you disagree, take the other guy to court.

So, for the renters who file a chargeback against David's, my opinion on how things will play out is: the credit card companies will take their money back and they will see it on their credit card statement. David's can contest the chargeback saying "no refunds policy", but since it's an "item/service not delivered" complaint, I believe that the only thing that will enable David's to win the chargeback would be some kind of evidence that the product was delivered...this might be a statement from DVC saying the reservation was valid and wasn't checked in...etc. Obviously he won't be able to produce that since it doesn't exist and I believe that he would lose the charge back.

At that point, David's only recourse to "keep" the money from the renter would be to then file a lawsuit against them and win it. I've read the two contracts on David's website and I don't believe he would be able to actually be successful here either. In my opinion, the contract between the renter and David's becomes void once the reservation can no longer be delivered. It may also be a bad idea for David's to open that can of worms...I'm not an expert on consumer law in Canada...and again, i'm not a lawyer...this is not legal advice...this is only my personal opinion...etc...but he might open himself up to a counter suit...the renter might be able to claim that because the contract was cancelled through no fault of their own David's owes them for related losses/expenses...non refundable flights, lost vacation time, costs of alternative accommodations, etc.

The other issue on David's being able to actually file a lawsuit against anyone is that i'm guessing most of David's customers and the DVC owners he works with are in the USA. He's operating a business in Canada. His contract states that everything is to be litigated in Canada. He can file a suit, but would likely have a hard time winning a judgement. But even if he did get a judgement, if the person he is suing is in the USA with no assets/job in Canada, he would have no way to enforce the judgement and collect any money, without then trying to get the judgement in Canada recognized by a United States Court that has jurisdiction over the person they are trying to sue. This is an exceptionally expensive process with not a good chance of actually recovering any money. I don't think it's really done unless there is a dispute that involves more than tens of thousands of dollars with a good chance that you can actually recover something.

A couple of things about the chargeback is that by filing, it starts the process, it gives you the credit, and the broker would need to respond to that, which might take some time.

If Davids was to close/bankruptcy etc., the chargeback might stick. I have no dog in this fight but I would definitely file sooner than later.
 



















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