Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[Bearval]

You are probably right, the question would be how is any judgement enforced, especially with owners from different states or even countries are involved. A renter could easily end up paying more to cover court costs and just be further out of pocket.

You just need one renter to win based upon the contract not being binding then others can use that as a precedent and a lien can be put on the property (your timeshare).

 

[Bearval]

You just need one renter to win based upon the contract not being binding then others can use that as a precedent and a lien can be put on the property (your timeshare).

If you lose and a lien is placed on the property you will have to pay court costs and the costs to remove the lien after you satisfy the judgment.

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

I think people will be advised to get more comprehensive insurance. Coverage is available for this, most people probably not aware of it, others maybe decided not to pay the additional premium.

Does any insurance cover pandemics? My husband says that no insurance covers pandemics.

 

[Lewisc]

I am reading posts from renters who had CFAR and this situation is not covered, I have yet to read anyone who has been successful.

CFAR covers some, depending on when you cancel, of your non-refundable costs. Rental contracts aren't valid if the property is closed. Some posters don't agree but David's has said as much. Contract isn't valid, the insured is entitled to a refund. No reason for the insurance company to pay. Assume the broker or member can't financially pay the insured. That would be coverage for financial default which is frequently excluded outright, or sometimes included if the supplier is on a list.

Some policies might pay. Some might not. Travel policies list exactly what's covered. I think many internet posters have an unrealistic expectation as to what is covered by travel insurance.

 

[Sandisw]

CFAR covers some, depending on when you cancel, of your non-refundable costs. Rental contracts aren't valid if the property is closed. Some posters don't agree but David's has said as much. Contract isn't valid, the insured is entitled to a refund. No reason for the insurance company to pay. Assume the broker or member can't financially pay the insured. That would be coverage for financial default which is frequently excluded outright, or sometimes included if the supplier is on a list.

Some policies might pay. Some might not. Travel policies list exactly what's covered. I think many internet posters have an unrealistic expectation as to what is covered by travel insurance.

Interesting information.

 

[CarolynFH]

I’m wondering if over on Tugs if their having the same debates, or have examples of this happening before???

https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/redweek-holding-all-payments-regardless.302908/https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/angry-renter-wants-full-refund-on-non-refundable-rental.302934/https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/refund-for-coronavirus-cancellations.302664/https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/d...ns-without-penalty-due-to-coronavirus.302733/https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/how-exchange-companies-are-handling-cancellations-thread.302667/There are many more such threads. Enjoy!

 

[TCRAIG]

Disney is returning points but read how many owners want the rules of the contract to be ignored and allow banking beyond deadline or to have banked points banked again.

There is definitely a different mindset from owners who have their own vacations canceled and stand to lose points vs, owners who feel renters are out of luck if a new reservation cant be figured out

Right now - Disney is restoring borrowed points back to their use year but they are now allowing points to be banked past their deadline...so for my May reservation - if it gets cancelled - I will have 154 2019 points gone - I’m would not be happy about that but I’d understand...the Initial comment was how would an owner feel if Disney didn’t refund - well Disney isn’t refunding 100% depending on the status of the points and UY...I haven’t read any owner comments about threatening to sue or calling Disney a crook and a thief

 

[Sandisw]

Right now - Disney is restoring borrowed points back to their use year but they are now allowing points to be banked past their deadline...so for my May reservation - if it gets cancelled - I will have 154 2019 points gone - I’m would not be happy about that but I’d understand...the Initial comment was how would an owner feel if Disney didn’t refund - well Disney isn’t refunding 100% depending on the status of the points and UY...I haven’t read any owner comments about threatening to sue or calling Disney a crook and a thief

This is where we differ. Disney is refunding all points. No owner is not getting the points back to their account from a canceled reservation.

The fact that the owner may not be able to use them and will lose them, because of the rules of our contract regarding banking, doesn’t change that all points are being resorted to the account in the status used

Yes, they are making exceptions to the rules for borrowed points. So, owners are upset that Disney isn’t bending the banking rules part of the contfact,

Owners would have no right to sue for breach of contract because DVCM didn’t ignore the rules.

 

[KingRichard]

So what will you do? I’m in a similar situation

I can only hope Disney will be back open by then.

 

[Krandor]

I am willing to bet some owners may wind up in small claims court if they do not reimburse renters their money. It is relatively cheap to do and does not require a lawyer. It will determine if the language in the contract is actually binding. If the owner of the points does not show up for the hearing date you lose.

Renters do not have a contrract with the owners. They have a contract with Davids. If they want to file a lawsuit it is with David. The owner is not a party to the contract.

Even if they did file against the owner, the owner cannot give them a 100% refund because the owner doesn't have 100% of the money. They have at best around 50% of it since that is all they have been paid to date. David's has their commission and 30% of the money due to the owner. The only entitty that ever had ALL of the money the renter paid was David.

 

[Matty B13]

https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/redweek-holding-all-payments-regardless.302908/https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/angry-renter-wants-full-refund-on-non-refundable-rental.302934/https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/refund-for-coronavirus-cancellations.302664/https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/d...ns-without-penalty-due-to-coronavirus.302733/https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/how-exchange-companies-are-handling-cancellations-thread.302667/There are many more such threads. Enjoy!

Looks like my parents who have been renting their place in Maine for 20+ years have been right all along..... Always deal directly with a renter and only take personal checks. They stopped using VRBO/Homeaway because of the way they wanted to take control of an owners rentals and payments.

 

[Miffy]

I've been following this thread and another thread here with similar discussions.

I hope that in the future, not just DVC rental brokers but also anyone who rents their DVC points will make it totally clear upfront in the most blatant way possible, and before any rental agreements are signed, what the resolution to the coronavirus shutdowns will turn out to be--as well as making it super clear exactly what the terms are. Because for sure a few months from now and definitely a couple of years from now, renters will be uncaring of the risks involved on their end. I see it here on the DIS all the time. People will post with their questions about future stays--what should I do?--several people will recommend renting points, and the negative aspects of doing so will be glossed over, dismissed, or ignored completely.

Yes, the negatives are clearly set out by David's and by other agencies and by the owners themselves. But renters don't seem to get it--that under most circumstances, their reservation is set in stone, cannot be moved or changed, and is totally nonrefundable.

Also, instead of advising renters to get trip insurance and saying "Google it and you'll find something somewhere," there should be a sticky on the DIS where trip insurance companies are recommended and people can post their actual experiences with them. Because I keep seeing posters saying that renters should've gotten trip insurance, and I have yet to see anyone post that they had insurance that covered a pandemic. Sure, this is an unusual event--now it's unusual. Maybe 10 years from now, this won't be so unusual. I hope not, but not only don't I know, no one does.

 

[Deb & Bill]

Because they are the owner and cannot transfer the points, only offer the accommodations which they cannot provide. Using your restaurant analogy, if you made a reservation for a restaurant that required you pay in advance but upon arrival the restaurant is closed. Do they get to keep your money?

It's more like if you bought a VISA gift card to a restaurant, didn't go until six months later and found it expired before you used it because of VISA fees. Do you still get to use it or are you out money?

If anything, I think the renter and owner should each get 50%. That way they each “lose” something for nothing...

So the points owner should refund about 25% of what they have from the broker since they only got about 53% of the money the renter paid and the broker should pay the other 25%. The renter is out 50%. That gives the owners about $7.60 per point which is about enough to pay for the annual fee on each point.

 

[davper]

Another interesting fact relating to hurricane IRMA that I read about on another board:

It's been reported that private vacation rentals in Florida which had to be cancelled due to weather have been taken to court and it was determined that the owner was not at fault since it was out of their control and it was on the renter to purchase travel insurance to protect themselves in a non-refundable private rental.

Hi
dis they happen to list the docket# for reference?

 

[Krandor]

I've been following this thread and another thread here with similar discussions.

I hope that in the future, not just DVC rental brokers but also anyone who rents their DVC points will make it totally clear upfront in the most blatant way possible, and before any rental agreements are signed, what the resolution to the coronavirus shutdowns will turn out to be--as well as making it super clear exactly what the terms are. Because for sure a few months from now and definitely a couple of years from now, renters will be uncaring of the risks involved on their end. I see it here on the DIS all the time. People will post with their questions about future stays--what should I do?--several people will recommend renting points, and the negative aspects of doing so will be glossed over, dismissed, or ignored completely.

Yes, the negatives are clearly set out by David's and by other agencies and by the owners themselves. But renters don't seem to get it--that under most circumstances, their reservation is set in stone, cannot be moved or changed, and is totally nonrefundable.

Also, instead of advising renters to get trip insurance and saying "Google it and you'll find something somewhere," there should be a sticky on the DIS where trip insurance companies are recommended and people can post their actual experiences with them. Because I keep seeing posters saying that renters should've gotten trip insurance, and I have yet to see anyone post that they had insurance that covered a pandemic. Sure, this is an unusual event--now it's unusual. Maybe 10 years from now, this won't be so unusual. I hope not, but not only don't I know, no one does.

Totally agree. it may not be another pandemic but there could be a hurricane that closes things for a few days or soemthing like 9/11 or even a fire breaks out in one of the DVC resorts. While unlikely all are certainly possible things that could happen

 

[KingRichard]

A couple thing about lost points. They couldn't give them for next use year because we all know that they would not have enough rooms available.

They could maybe open up none DVC rooms for a comparable rate, but that would cost Disney a lot of cash!

Someone posted about giving those points at contract end. I thought great idea! Just remember how high the dues will be then?

$30-40 per point?

Disney can not win.

The cheapest way out for Disney would be refund Dues(not Taxes) and the cost of those points when sold($2 per point)? Even if they included Taxes for BLT I would be looking at Less then $9 per point!

Better then nothing!

 

[davper]

Same here - banked and borrowed points From a June contract for an April rental - I’ll do what I can...

I have the same situation. I stand to lose 2+ years of points on 5/31 if Disney won't allow me to bank my current use year and place my borrowed points back. The banked points will be lost regardless.

 

[McCrae]

Does any insurance cover pandemics? My husband says that no insurance covers pandemics.

If you use a broker to get your coverage they should be able to source cover for you.

 

[Sandisw]

If you use a broker to get your coverage they should be able to source cover for you.

Not sure that happened with this broker. Just from reports from renters who used them, got insurance and out of luck,

Honestly, I don’t think many of us would have thought about a pandemic when seeking insurance,

 

[davper]

There's a lot of your argument that ignores that any contract (except for those which are plainly illegal, such as a contract to kill someone) between two adult parties is binding on both parties, no matter what happens.

When the owner made the reservation, and kept the reservation open for the member, he sold something of value. The value of those points could be reduced to zero if the points are expiring soon, or be reduced greatly if the points are expiring in 2020 (because there are few rooms available between September and January).

The renter has paid money for a reservation. That money was paid to a broker. The broker collects $4.50 per point for his commission and pays the owner $10.15 per point immediately. The broker then holds $3.35 per point until the day of check-in, when it is then released to the owner.

The key problem here is that the contracts do not have a Force Majeure clause, which would state what would happen in the event the contract becomes impossible to fulfill due to the actions of a third party.

One could claim that the renter should get their money back in full. The broker would say, "But I spent time and money to make this match up, so I should be paid!". The owner would say, "I rented those points when they had value, and now they have none, so I should be paid!". Because the broker is holding the $3.35 per point, and has already collected his $4.50 per point commission, and has a "no refund" contract with the renter, he believes he is in the driver's seat.

But, ultimately, the broker is the one responsible. It is a tenet of law that the person who drafts the contract is ultimately responsible for its content, even if it works against him because of his own incompetence in drafting it. By failing to have a Force Majeure event, even though it was completely foreseeable that one would be needed (Hurricanes and 9/11 shut down Disney in the past), David's has exposed themselves to liability on both sides: refunds for the renters, and full compensation for the owners. They rented reservations which, through no fault of the renter or owner could not be fulfilled. I'm sure David's knows this, so they are scrambling to re-book as many clients as they can, and trying to keep as much cash in the bank to cover the coming charge backs from people who cannot be accommodated with a re-book.

I see major changes coming to every broker's contract due to this event, and changes as to how these brokers operate.

I think David's did cover themselves in the contract. David's is scrambling to protect there renters so that they will continue to rent in the future.

Here is the first part of David's contract that the renter signs:
Terms: All Sales Final

I _____________ have been advised by David's Vacation Club Rentals to consider the purchase trip cancellation insurance. I interpret this as 'You have been warned that all sales are final and you are responsible for protecting your investment if something were to go wrong'.

If you have indicated that you are a Canadian Citizen we also recommend the consideration of purchasing out of Province Health Insurance.

Neither David's Vacation Club Rentals nor The Member will assume any responsibility for specific room requests not honored by Disney at the time of arrival. Granted this is not the intent of this line, but it can be argued that Disney is not honoring the reservation and providing the guest with a room and David's & Member are not responsible.

David's Vacation Club Rentals is not liable for any operations changes by the Disney Vacation Club with respect to where you have booked your travel. This would include but is not limited to operations of resort restaurants, pools, play grounds and other amenities controlled by the Resort. I read this as not responsible if Disney closes any part of the resort including the resort itself.

A renter took ownership of the points when both parties signed the agreement. If the points should go down in value, through no part of the Member or David's, then the liability falls on the renter. After I signed, my responsibility was to keep my dues up to date and help the renter with changes or addons. With that said, If I am allowed to bank the current points and restore the borrowed points, I will let the renter reschedule within the year. But the previously banked points are lost and the renter was made aware of the fact that points have a shelf life. If all points are lost, I am strongly leaning to return the 30% still owed to me as a gesture of goodwill.