Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[CarolMN]

Hi
dis they happen to list the docket# for reference?

No, they didn't. Would have liked to read that myself.

 

[McCrae]

Not sure that happened with this broker. Just from reports from renters who used them, got insurance and out of luck,

Honestly, I don’t think many of us would have thought about a pandemic when seeking insurance,

I agree... most people don’t read all of the conditions of their insurance and would assume sometimes they have coverage when they don’t. This crisis though will probably change how people purchase insurance.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

I am reading posts from renters who had CFAR and this situation is not covered, I have yet to read anyone who has been successful.

I'm not clear on how they can characterize a policy as CFAR (cancel for ANY reason) when they really mean "cancel for any reason... except those that aren't covered" (CFARETTAC).

 

[davper]

I haven't waded into this conversation yet because it's obviously very owner heavy board but OMG this!

I am a renter. I paid for a hotel stay. You can't provide that hotel stay? I get my money back. I'm not involved with the logistics of when your points expire.

Actually, I rented you points. And on your behalf, those point were traded with Disney for a stay.

 

[Minniesgal]

First of all, as a renter, I believe that this is completely my fault to be naive enough to feel that a trip insurance will cover me. I consider myself a very cautious person with my money.

If DVC does nothing to help owners, then it is on Disney. Owners will be losing their hard earned money if they decided to refund the renter. But I doubt it that Disney will not help the owners during this unfortunate pandemic.

If DVC returns points back to the owner, and the owner refuses to refund or change the reservation, then it will be on the owner. I understand that the contract clearly states nonrefundable,but this is an unusual circumstance. If a lot of owners refuse to refund or change their reservations (I have seen a few here), then we will have a lot of renters who will never rent again. I wonder what that would do to the rental market. I know if I were an owner, I will do everything in my power to help the renter reschedule.

In my opinion this sees things are more black and white than they are.

I agree that if DVC returns points to the owner, and if those points remain reusable, and if there is availability for rooms before those point expire then it would be unreasonable for the owner not to reschedule for the renter. But thats a lot of stars that have to line up.

But if those points are returned but effectively unusable because either they expire soon or expire before there is availability I think it is very harsh for renters to expect a full refund from owners and in my opinion a 50 50 split of the costs would be much fairer as noone is at fault here.

 

[Lewisc]

I agree. I think trip insurance has so many exclusions that it is usually pointless.

Travel insurance generally covers exactly what's listed in the policy. The problem is people assume it covers what they want it to cover. Some people seem to think what's listed is an example of what's covered rather then an inclusive list.

Good trip insurance already exists that covers this type of event.

CFAR policies cover non-refundable charges. A closed resort means the contract isn't valid, David's interpretation, so a refund is due. No reason for insurance to pay. Now if the resort was open and the insured cancelled due to fear of travel there would be coverage.

Renters do not have a contrract with the owners. They have a contract with Davids. If they want to file a lawsuit it is with David. The owner is not a party to the contract.

Even if they did file against the owner, the owner cannot give them a 100% refund because the owner doesn't have 100% of the money. They have at best around 50% of it since that is all they have been paid to date. David's has their commission and 30% of the money due to the owner. The only entitty that ever had ALL of the money the renter paid was David.

The specium renters agreement on David's website is between the owner and renter. It's electronically signed. At least one poster doesn't think the owner's electronic signature is valid. Some might think accepting the money, after receiving a copy of the contract, suggests acceptance.

I'm not clear on how they can characterize a policy as CFAR (cancel for ANY reason) when they really mean "cancel for any reason... except those that aren't covered" (CFARETTAC).

It is CFAR. The question is which charges are reimbursable by insurance and which should be refunded by the travel supplier.

 

[bababear_50]

Just dropping by to say.....
I tried transferring money to my Paypal a week ago to refund an owner......estimated time of transfer to happen is Friday 27th..............................patience ..............................

Regards
Mel

 

[davper]

I don’t know, I’m playing around on Disney’s site pricing out pretend trips (as one does when they can’t actually go lol) and found a 2 bedroom at Beach Club for about $600 more total for a 10 night stay than David’s. Approximately a $600 premium, or $60 a night, is more than worth it IMO for peace of mind, ease of change/cancellation, and actually being able to secure the room (not sitting on a wait list that may never come through). The point rental savings on a Poly studio for that same time frame (just picking what I see available) were larger, closer to $120 a night. I’m not comparing to rack rate, but to what one would actually pay with Disney.

Definitely depends on the time of year, the resort you’re considering, room type, etc. The savings aren’t necessarily always that large even at this point before prices potentially drop.

That is one hell of a deal if you still have it, because I just looked. A weeks stay in a 2 bed in 1st week of October is $4,560 total on points. Cash stay costs $9,622 + taxes and fees. Points cost less than half the cash rate.

I figured cash rates would be cheaper in May due to many cancellations and low demand. But nope, it is still roughly the same cost.

 

[davper]

I have rented three times, each was for a studio. I think and hope that the studio availability will rise when rentals are fewer.

Not likely, If there are no more rentals, the points will still get used. Either by the member or because the member gave them away to a family/friend. We will not let them go to waste. Giving them to charity is better than letting them go to waste.

 

[CaliAdventurer]

Update on my sitch: I reached out to the owner via FB and again to Davids and told them I would give it a week and dispute or if they can tell me the points are expiring (which they could since they know the UY) and then I would understand and move on with my life. About an hour later they let me know that they finally reached the owner and though the points are expiring April UY, he agreed to refund. So it's a happy ending for me. But it does appear that they are reaching out to owners. How far they will go without a squeaking wheel, who knows? But I can say that in my case, they handled it.

 

[Krandor]

Update on my sitch: I reached out to the owner via FB and again to Davids and told them I would give it a week and dispute or if they can tell me the points are expiring (which they could since they know the UY) and then I would understand and move on with my life. About an hour later they let me know that they finally reached the owner and though the points are expiring April UY, he agreed to refund. So it's a happy ending for me. But it does appear that they are reaching out to owners. How far they will go without a squeaking wheel, who knows? But I can say that in my case, they handled it.

Are they refunding 100%? including David's commission?

 

[davper]

I have rented three times, each was for a studio. I think and hope that the studio availability will rise when rentals are fewer.

Not likely, If there are no more rentals, the points will still get used. Either by the member or because the member gave them away to a family/friend. We will not let them go to waste. Giving them to charity is better than letting them go to waste.

What the contract says is irrelevant because it is void.

Just curious, how is it void?
I rented points to the broker who then rented them to a renter. Those points were then used to create a reservation on behalf of the renter. I received consideration for fulfilling my end of the agreement. The renter is now the owner of those points. If the value of those points should change before the renter has a chance to use them, that is on the renter. That is the risk the renter is taking on a volatile item. That is why they are encouraged to protect their investment.

IANAL and I am sure we will see arguments made before a judge on this.

 

[MICKIMINI]

Update on my sitch: I reached out to the owner via FB and again to Davids and told them I would give it a week and dispute or if they can tell me the points are expiring (which they could since they know the UY) and then I would understand and move on with my life. About an hour later they let me know that they finally reached the owner and though the points are expiring April UY, he agreed to refund. So it's a happy ending for me. But it does appear that they are reaching out to owners. How far they will go without a squeaking wheel, who knows? But I can say that in my case, they handled it.

It's a happy ending for you - but what about the owner? They are out the value of those points as you are celebrating your victory lap with not so much as a thank you. Do you know if the broker refunded the owner for the fee they paid? I hope you appreciate that they gave back a NON REFUNDABLE contract which you knowingly signed. A thoughtful thank you note to the owners with a $100 gift card for Disney would be gracious and a small acknowledgement that they were kind.

Honestly, I hope you buy DVC rather than rent again. Respectfully, if you really want to stay at DVC, please write a check for 20K or 30K and you won't have to worry about it again.

 

[tallguy001]

Not likely, If there are no more rentals, the points will still get used. Either by the member or because the member gave them away to a family/friend. We will not let them go to waste. Giving them to charity is better than letting them go to waste.

Just curious, how is it void?
I rented points to the broker who then rented them to a renter. Those points were then used to create a reservation on behalf of the renter. I received consideration for fulfilling my end of the agreement. The renter is now the owner of those points. If the value of those points should change before the renter has a chance to use them, that is on the renter. That is the risk the renter is taking on a volatile item. That is why they are encouraged to protect their investment.

IANAL and I am sure we will see arguments made before a judge on this.

The renter does not own the points. The renter has a reservation in their name. The reservation is canceled. The renter now has nothing, therefore no consideration. The points are with the owner. If the value of the points should change before the owner has a chance to use them, that is on the owner.

 

[CaliAdventurer]

It's a happy ending for you - but what about the owner? They are out the value of those points as you are celebrating your victory lap with not so much as a thank you. Do you know if the broker refunded the owner for the fee they paid? I hope you appreciate that they gave back a NON REFUNDABLE contract which you knowingly signed. A thoughtful thank you note to the owners with a $100 gift card for Disney would be gracious and a small acknowledgement that they were kind.

Honestly, I hope you buy DVC rather than rent again. Respectfully, if you really want to stay at DVC, please write a check for 20K or 30K and you won't have to worry about it again.

Woah, go easy on the assumptions! I did relay thanks to the owner and as an OWNER of 1340 points at VGF, VGC, and Aulani, I can tell you that I have written checks for many times more the numbers you mentioned. I was borrowed out due to taking 23 family members to VGF last year and added 3 days to my own trip with rental. I had also told Davids that if they were banked expiring, I would not pursue anything. Not that I owe you an explanation.

As an owner, I also know that DVC has told owners in this situation to hang tight and they are working on solutions once they know the scope of the problem and I believe they will not leave this owner with nothing, which is good for him considering his points were expiring April 1 and I rented them 1 day before the closure was announced for the last three days of the month. If I were him, I would have accepted that I was losing my points by then and now he has hope of some remediation.

As an owner of said number of points, I would like there to be a healthy rental market in the event I ever want to rent out my points and stiffing renters is NOT how to ensure demand. If an owner received the points back from DVC, those belong to the renter as far as I'm concerned. Prices were at $20 what will they they be now with lost faith?

 

[TheWheel]

I think David's did cover themselves in the contract. David's is scrambling to protect there renters so that they will continue to rent in the future.

Here is the first part of David's contract that the renter signs:
Terms: All Sales Final

I _____________ have been advised by David's Vacation Club Rentals to consider the purchase trip cancellation insurance. I interpret this as 'You have been warned that all sales are final and you are responsible for protecting your investment if something were to go wrong'.

If you have indicated that you are a Canadian Citizen we also recommend the consideration of purchasing out of Province Health Insurance.

Neither David's Vacation Club Rentals nor The Member will assume any responsibility for specific room requests not honored by Disney at the time of arrival. Granted this is not the intent of this line, but it can be argued that Disney is not honoring the reservation and providing the guest with a room and David's & Member are not responsible.

David's Vacation Club Rentals is not liable for any operations changes by the Disney Vacation Club with respect to where you have booked your travel. This would include but is not limited to operations of resort restaurants, pools, play grounds and other amenities controlled by the Resort. I read this as not responsible if Disney closes any part of the resort including the resort itself.

A renter took ownership of the points when both parties signed the agreement. If the points should go down in value, through no part of the Member or David's, then the liability falls on the renter. After I signed, my responsibility was to keep my dues up to date and help the renter with changes or addons. With that said, If I am allowed to bank the current points and restore the borrowed points, I will let the renter reschedule within the year. But the previously banked points are lost and the renter was made aware of the fact that points have a shelf life. If all points are lost, I am strongly leaning to return the 30% still owed to me as a gesture of goodwill.

You are looking at this through very owner colored glasses.

The insurance line is a suggestion to purchase insurance in case the renter needs to cancel.

Room requests are things like "pool view" not "I'd request that I actually have a room when I arrive."

The operations line specifically references "amenities" (a desirable or useful feature or facility of a building or place.) controlled by the resort, not the accommodations themselves.

You cannot pass ownership of the points to a renter only book accommodations in their name using your points. If you passed ownership of the points then DVC would need to refund those points to the renter not the owner and the renter would be able to contact Disney directly.

As a deeded timeshare Disney DVC owners are in fact "owners" so closing the resort is in fact an action by the owner and you left out the below.

Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is $XX.XX US Dollars.

 

[Lewisc]

I rented points to the broker who then rented them to a renter. Those points were then used to create a reservation on behalf of the renter. I received consideration for fulfilling my end of the agreement. The renter is now the owner of those points. If the value of those points should change before the renter has a chance to use them, that is on the renter. That is the risk the renter is taking on a volatile item. That is why they are encouraged to protect their investment.

Did you transfer the points to the brokers DVC contract? Did the broker then make a reservation using what are now the broker's points? That's the transaction you described. Rarely done that way.

You "rented points" to the renter not the broker, at least per Dave's rental agreement. If you literally rented the points the renter would be able to call Disney and directly make the reservation, book DME, add on dining etc. You made a reservation for the renter, using your points, in exchange for $$$. Resort is closed there is no longer a valid contract. You don't have the ability to make Disney honor your rental agreement by opening the resort for one guest. The contract isn't valid and the renter is owed a refund. That's David's interpretation.

I think the renter would be stuck, unless he bought CFAR insurance, if the resorts where open but not the theme parks.

 

[tallguy001]

Did you transfer the points to the brokers DVC contract? Did the broker then make a reservation using what are now the broker's points? That's the transaction you described. Rarely done that way.

You "rented points" to the renter not the broker, at least per Dave's rental agreement. If you literally rented the points the renter would be able to call Disney and directly make the reservation, book DME, add on dining etc. You made a reservation for the renter, using your points, in exchange for $$$. Resort is closed there is no longer a valid contract. You don't have the ability to make Disney honor your rental agreement by opening the resort for one guest. The contract isn't valid and the renter is owed a refund. That's David's interpretation.

This is 100% accurate. Based on David’s emails to owners, his legal representation clearly knows this as well. Parsing of contract language (NO REFUNDS!!!) is irrelevant when there is no valid contract.

This is only when the resort is closed. Renter is out of luck if the resorts are open and don’t want to (can’t) travel.

 

[McCrae]

In my opinion this sees things are more black and white than they are.

I agree that if DVC returns points to the owner, and if those points remain reusable, and if there is availability for rooms before those point expire then it would be unreasonable for the owner not to reschedule for the renter. But thats a lot of stars that have to line up.

But if those points are returned but effectively unusable because either they expire soon or expire before there is availability I think it is very harsh for renters to expect a full refund from owners and in my opinion a 50 50 split of the costs would be much fairer as noone is at fault here.

Does anyone have an example where an owner could reschedule, but has refused?

 

[davper]

If DVC returns points back to the owner, and the owner refuses to refund or change the reservation, then it will be on the owner. I understand that the contract clearly states nonrefundable,but this is an unusual circumstance. If a lot of owners refuse to refund or change their reservations (I have seen a few here), then we will have a lot of renters who will never rent again. I wonder what that would do to the rental market. I know if I were an owner, I will do everything in my power to help the renter reschedule.

If Disney works with me, I can work with the Renter/David's

We never use our 450 dvc points, and have rented them out thru David’s for several years. We don’t want the hassle of doing it ourselves and have always used David’s service to have someone to help us if things went south with a renter. We always have been willing to pay his fee for the extra peace of mind if a renter damaged a villa or left a unpaid bill.

No more. After this latest experience, we will be using our points or giving to friends and family to use. Or maybe just sell the contracts.

Has David's forced you to return monies? Have they given you bad service? Don't understand why you won't use David's anymore when it seams for years they have done exactly what you have asked of them.

Not really because in all situations other than a resort closure...which wasn’t really addressed in these contracts...these reservations are not able to be canceled or changeable by the renter.

The reservation IS changeable or cancel able by the renter, I have made several changes for the renter in the last few months. If I don't, I am in breach of the agreement. The renter can use those points however they see fit. If they want to reschedule, they can.

A DVC member cannot offer accomodations unless it is a reservation they already made. They are only offering points for which they agreed to be go between with Disney in making the reservation. This is in the agreement that I signed 'Paying the DVC Owner for rented points used to secure reservations'. Points were rented from me, not a reservation.

Disney is returning points but read how many owners want the rules of the contract to be ignored and allow banking beyond deadline or to have banked points banked again.

There is definitely a different mindset from owners who have their own vacations canceled and stand to lose points vs, owners who feel renters are out of luck if a new reservation cant be figured out

Because it has been posted on this board a couple of times that there is travel insurance that cover pandemic, If I don't purchase that coverage, then I am assuming the risk. Why shouldn't we ask the same of the renter?

Yes, I would have to pay the full freight if I don't have insurance. I am not asking Disney to break any rules. They were laid out when I purchased.

That is why I think after this mess has been settled, that DVC should come out with a "clear" policy in case another event like this happens, and the policy could be referenced an any rental agreement as well. That way Owners & Renters know exactly how things will be handled, and are not waiting/wanting pixie dust to happen.

You won't see a change in DVC's agreement. They already have a clear policy.

I am willing to bet some owners may wind up in small claims court if they do not reimburse renters their money. It is relatively cheap to do and does not require a lawyer. It will determine if the language in the contract is actually binding. If the owner of the points does not show up for the hearing date you lose.

Members who went through a broker won't end up in small claims. The broker will. While you say it is of low cost, you aren't considering that you must file in the jurisdiction that the transaction took place. In the case of renting from David's, that is in Canada. Do they have a small claims court there. And the last time I looked, $2000 was the limit in my jurisdiction for small claims. Most paid more.

The renter does not own the points. The renter has a reservation in their name. The reservation is canceled. The renter now has nothing, therefore no consideration. The points are with the owner.

The renter has control of points. I cannot do anything with those points or I will be in breach. David's cannot do anything with those points or they will be in breach. The party who has any control of those points and not be in breach is the renter. They direct the member on what to do with those rented points
Yes the renter has a reservation in their name by using the points they rented. If the reservation gets canceled, they still have the points and can go at a later time provided the points they have acquired has not expired.
My agreement say that a reservation is secured by using rented points. One side offered points for consideration the other side offered cash for consideration. Points are still available therefore the contract is not void.