Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[momincolorado]

Hello everyone. I am a renter. It sounds like most of you are owners and I am trying to understand my options with David. We were scheduled for first week of April. I am not a lawyer.

My original contract from January doesn't state anything about a force majeure clause. My thought is that I entered into a contract whereby I pay money and owner was supposed to provide accommodations. Since resorts closed, and service not provided I am entitled to a refund. From Disney sites, it says that all reservations are cancelled automatically and points are returned to owners automatically.

I don't understand why I can't just a refund and why I have to do this future credit. The owners got their points back. I should get my money back? It's very restrictive. I'm thinking of just initiating a chargeback dispute with Chase Sapphire.

Here is the travel credit email from David:

Thank you for your patience in waiting for our communications.
Below are the Terms and Conditions for the David's Vacation Club Rentals Travel Credit. Once you've had the opportunity to review the information, we look forward to receiving your response and would ask that you please indicate your reply by clicking on a button below.
Terms & Conditions

1. The Credit will be for the entire value of the original booking, less any compensation already received, and the Credit can only be applied to one subsequent booking. If the value of the Credit exceeds the value of the subsequent booking, the remaining differential in value will not be refunded, nor will it be available for extra's or add-on's such as dining plans or park tickets. If the value of the subsequent booking exceeds the value of the Credit, the guest will be responsible for paying the difference.
2. You may not assign or transfer the Credit or any rights, interests or obligations hereunder. You may not combine this Credit with any other credit or promotional offer.
3. Any Reservation booked using the Credit is FINAL SALE – NO EXCEPTIONS. This includes, but is not limited to, date modification, resale and changes to the Guest names used for the original booking.
4. Credit has no cash value.
5. The Travel Credit will not be reissued if it is lost or stolen. Keep this information in a safe location.
6. Credit is available for use up to 24 months after the date of issue. Credit must be used within 24 months.
7. Credit can be used for any service offered by David's Vacation Club Rentals including but not limited to Point Rentals, Cash Bookings at Disney owned resorts, Cruise Bookings or Adventure by Disney bookings.
8. Credits cannot be applied to Park Tickets, Dining Plans, or insurance plans.
9. In the case of Point Rentals, upon requesting a reservation with your credit code, you will be asked to authorize a new deposit. Once the code has been confirmed, your deposit will be refunded and the reservation process will continue.
10. In the event of a global pandemic, natural disaster, force Majeure or any other event outside the reasonable control of David's Vacation Club Rentals, this Credit remains non-refundable and no modification, cancelations or rebooking will be permitted.
11. David's Vacation Club Rentals does not guarantee the availability of services. The Credit is subject to availability of the selected product at time of booking.
12. No terms and conditions, other than those stated herein, and no agreement or understanding, oral or written, in any way purporting to modify these Terms and Conditions shall be binding.
13. These terms and conditions shall be governed by, and interpreted in accordance with, the laws of the Province of Ontario and the laws of Canada applicable therein.
14. David's Vacation Club Rentals reserves the right to change, add, modify, or eliminate any element of the Credit or any type of service or activity currently available with the Credit.
15. Credit represents full and final satisfaction of any and all obligations set out in the original Rental Agreement and David's Vacation Club Rentals is released from any further rights, obligations or performance of the original Rental Agreement.

Thanks everyone!

Cash bookings at Disney resorts are all refundable so if you are using the credit for that and something happens, he gets to keep the money. #14 - he gets to modify (or even eliminate any element of) the credit as he pleases, #15 you are releasing him from any liability (including liability under the existing rental agreement). If ANYTHING goes wrong (and we have all learned that things can go wrong), you are completely out of luck, he keeps the money. I also use Chase Sapphire- it’s a good card. I would do a chargeback.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

I, ????, accept the terms and conditions of the travel credit as they're listed above.

I, ????, do not accept the terms and conditions of the travel credit and agree to keep my reservation as is, understanding that there are no refunds or modifications allowed.

Doesn't it sound like if I hit no than i am out of luck?

Heads I win, tails you lose.

Haha accept this deal which fixes the loophole in my previous contract... No promise he can fill voucher either, but no take backs of not.

 

[waltonmkb]

Haha accept this deal which fixes the loophole in my previous contract... No promise he can fill voucher either, but no take backs of not.

That’s what’s really shady! As a renter, I already signed a contract with him that I thought gave me some protection, but now in order to get anything, I have to sign a new contract that is basically s**t? If you accept the voucher, I would still expect the previous contract to still be in effect. How can he change the terms of the agreement in order for you to get what you paid for?

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

That’s what’s really shady!

The terms & conditions of the voucher explicitly protect David's if closures occur again during your re-scheduled trip. So you can either agree to forfeit your money now or accept the deal and HOPE the resorts are open when you go, because if they aren't, you get nothing.

The worst part is that the wording is such that you can choose to "keep your reservation as is." But that only applies to those who are still gambling on resorts opening back up for an upcoming stay. For those who already had reservations cancelled due to the closures, the choice he's offering is to take the voucher or forfeit 100% of your money.

 

[waltonmkb]

I, ????, accept the terms and conditions of the travel credit as they're listed above.

I, ????, do not accept the terms and conditions of the travel credit and agree to keep my reservation as is, understanding that there are no refunds or modifications allowed.

Doesn't it sound like if I hit no than i am out of luck?

I would remind David that you already have a contract in place that both of you signed when you paid your money and he accepted your money and if he is no longer honoring that contract, then you are entitled to a refund.

 

[YourEveryDayAdam]

deleted

 

[Frustrated renter]

As a renter, I never assumed the travel credit would be as good as a cash refund but a cash refund was never offered.

Its not certain a chargeback will be successful, especially for those of us outside the 180 purchase timeframe, but after reading these terms and conditions a chargeback appears to be the more desirable option.

I was hoping the cash booking option at least would cover any risks associated with parks not re-opening by our new travel dates, giving us the ability to reschedule if Disney cancels our reservation again.

 

[YourEveryDayAdam]

deleted

 

[McCrae]

So, I was doing some research and found some interesting things.

I am going to start by saying that i'm not a lawyer. This is not legal advice. This is just some interesting things i've found in researching force majeure.

So, my understanding is that since (before this COVID stuff started) David's rental contracts did not have a Force Majeure clause the contracts would fall to one of two possibilities: Frustration of Purpose or the Doctrine of Impossibility.

Some sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_majeurehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frustration_of_purposehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impossibility
Okay. Things are probably very strange here. A court and a bunch of high-priced lawyers will actually have to figure out what's going on. But i'm offering a legal thought experiment.

In order for Force Majeure to apply, the contracts would have to have explicit Force Majeure clauses in them. They don't, so we then move on to Frustration of Purpose or the Doctrine of Impossibility.

According to the wikipedia article on Frustration of purpose, it applies when the reasonably known purpose of a contract can no longer be fulfilled...but the specific terms of the contract CAN still be fulfilled. To put this in DVC terms: The reasonably known purpose of the contract to rent DVC points is that the family wanted to enjoy a Disney Vacation. If the parks had closed, but the resorts had stayed open, then this would fall in to the "frustration of purpose" bucket.

The Doctrine of Impossibility applies when it is impossible to fulfill the obligations of the contract. In this case, Disney, the government, etc. have closed the resorts and it is literally impossible to have a reservation that the renter can check in to. It is impossible to perform the duties specified in the contract.

In the doctrine of impossibility, everyone is excused from all of their duties. The DVC member is excused from their duty to provide the reservation. David's is excused from their duty to pay David's. The renter is excused from their duty to pay David's.

Once thing that I thought was interesting from the article on the Doctrine of Impossibility though:


Based on that, I am theorizing that everyone owes everyone there money back. I believe, from a legal perspective, the DVC Member owes David his money back, and David owes the renter their money back. Essentially, everything is undone as if the contract were never signed.

That is one possible way to look at things. Different jurisdictions will have a different interpretation. David’s contracts are not covered by US law. Renters and owners have a contract with a Canadian company with no offices in the US. They have agreed to be bound by Canadian law. When you deal with a foreign company it’s an additional risk if things go wrong it can be much more difficult to get a resolution you are happy with.

 

[McCrae]

That’s what’s really shady! As a renter, I already signed a contract with him that I thought gave me some protection, but now in order to get anything, I have to sign a new contract that is basically s**t? If you accept the voucher, I would still expect the previous contract to still be in effect. How can he change the terms of the agreement in order for you to get what you paid for?

I think for renters trying charge back is the most likley hope for any success.

David’s argument will be that he has fulfilled his contract with you. Provided a reservation for a stay at Disney. He is not responsible for the resort being closed. The contract you signed had a no refunds clause under any circumstances. If you lose out you are at fault for not taking out adequate insurance as advised.

 

[Maddiesmum03]

Based on that, I am theorizing that everyone owes everyone there money back. I believe, from a legal perspective, the DVC Member owes David his money back, and David owes the renter their money back. Essentially, everything is undone as if the contract were never signed.

But even if the owner has the money to pay David’s back, everything is not undone. Time has moved on. The value of the points returned to the owner are not the same as they were when they let David’s rent them because they will be expiring sooner. The choices the owner has in using those points has diminished or disappeared completely.

 

[cm8]

Hello everyone. I am a renter. It sounds like most of you are owners and I am trying to understand my options with David. We were scheduled for first week of April. I am not a lawyer.

My original contract from January doesn't state anything about a force majeure clause. My thought is that I entered into a contract whereby I pay money and owner was supposed to provide accommodations. Since resorts closed, and service not provided I am entitled to a refund. From Disney sites, it says that all reservations are cancelled automatically and points are returned to owners automatically.

I don't understand why I can't just a refund and why I have to do this future credit. The owners got their points back. I should get my money back? It's very restrictive. I'm thinking of just initiating a chargeback dispute with Chase Sapphire.

Here is the travel credit email from David:

Thank you for your patience in waiting for our communications.
Below are the Terms and Conditions for the David's Vacation Club Rentals Travel Credit. Once you've had the opportunity to review the information, we look forward to receiving your response and would ask that you please indicate your reply by clicking on a button below.
Terms & Conditions

1. The Credit will be for the entire value of the original booking, less any compensation already received, and the Credit can only be applied to one subsequent booking. If the value of the Credit exceeds the value of the subsequent booking, the remaining differential in value will not be refunded, nor will it be available for extra's or add-on's such as dining plans or park tickets. If the value of the subsequent booking exceeds the value of the Credit, the guest will be responsible for paying the difference.
2. You may not assign or transfer the Credit or any rights, interests or obligations hereunder. You may not combine this Credit with any other credit or promotional offer.
3. Any Reservation booked using the Credit is FINAL SALE – NO EXCEPTIONS. This includes, but is not limited to, date modification, resale and changes to the Guest names used for the original booking.
4. Credit has no cash value.
5. The Travel Credit will not be reissued if it is lost or stolen. Keep this information in a safe location.
6. Credit is available for use up to 24 months after the date of issue. Credit must be used within 24 months.
7. Credit can be used for any service offered by David's Vacation Club Rentals including but not limited to Point Rentals, Cash Bookings at Disney owned resorts, Cruise Bookings or Adventure by Disney bookings.
8. Credits cannot be applied to Park Tickets, Dining Plans, or insurance plans.
9. In the case of Point Rentals, upon requesting a reservation with your credit code, you will be asked to authorize a new deposit. Once the code has been confirmed, your deposit will be refunded and the reservation process will continue.
10. In the event of a global pandemic, natural disaster, force Majeure or any other event outside the reasonable control of David's Vacation Club Rentals, this Credit remains non-refundable and no modification, cancelations or rebooking will be permitted.
11. David's Vacation Club Rentals does not guarantee the availability of services. The Credit is subject to availability of the selected product at time of booking.
12. No terms and conditions, other than those stated herein, and no agreement or understanding, oral or written, in any way purporting to modify these Terms and Conditions shall be binding.
13. These terms and conditions shall be governed by, and interpreted in accordance with, the laws of the Province of Ontario and the laws of Canada applicable therein.
14. David's Vacation Club Rentals reserves the right to change, add, modify, or eliminate any element of the Credit or any type of service or activity currently available with the Credit.
15. Credit represents full and final satisfaction of any and all obligations set out in the original Rental Agreement and David's Vacation Club Rentals is released from any further rights, obligations or performance of the original Rental Agreement.

Thanks everyone!

I am also not a lawyer. Can someone please explain how they can make changes to an original contract, then say that this new one goes in place of the one thrown out? Wouldn’t that require all parties to agree and sign acknowledging such?

Also, if he up and made changes without the consent of either party, does this not breach the original contract anyway? How does it give them authority to make changes but everyone gets told they are not authorized to do so?

Just curious.

In addition to what is bolded, how can the travel credit be used to “refund” but has zero cash value? Then he goes on to say if travel exceeds “value” they have to pay more? Is he assigning “value” by which resort you booked?

Are some people going to get less than others based on what and where they booked? This doesn’t seem like a great trade off for the renter. Especially when it says they might have to pay more.

So, if the “credit” has zero cash value, what is it backed by?? Good faith? His company’s name?

 

[cm8]

I'm just confused on the cash flow position and how moneys are transferred.

1. I renter paid 3000 to DVC for aulani
2. Owner uses 50 points and books Aulani on my behalf
3. David takes percentage broker fee and pays owner 2100 to owner

Now Aulani closes

4. Owner gets refunded 50 points. Per Disney website
5. Is owner supposed to pay David back the 2100 since he didn't provide service?
6. David then pays 3000 back to me

Is step 5 the sticking point? Please excuse me if I simplified this to much. Just trying to understand from a different point of view.

Not all Owners have been refunded. If the points used were due to expire, many have lost those points and currently nothing has been made public on what DVC will do for those cases.

You can’t say renters have had the points refunded if you don’t know what condition those points were in when rented out.

 

[Grnl706]

I have a question about my specific situation; I hope this is okay but everyone has been really insightful in here (and this pertains to David's).

This credit deal is just garbage. So I looked at my travel insurance policy again JUST to make sure I wasn't missing something and I think I may have. Never had to potentially file a claim before but here is what I'm thinking;

There is a clause that allows for reimbursement of non-refundable expenses (David's) if the Insured (my husband and I) or Travel Companion (we're going with a group of 9 other adults and 5 kids) loses their job at no fault of their own. Out of those 11 adults, 4 have been furloughed/let go from their jobs. That's the main reason we knew we weren't going. Half of the group can't afford to go anymore! It says it does not apply to seasonal, temporary, independent contractors or self employed which none of them fit.

I'm interpreting that I may be able to file a claim with some proof that those people are furloughed/laid off and are currently not working thus getting my funds back that I paid David's without doing a charge back. Is this a stretch or am I on to something?

 

[cm8]

I have a question about my specific situation; I hope this is okay but everyone has been really insightful in here (and this pertains to David's).

This credit deal is just garbage. So I looked at my travel insurance policy again JUST to make sure I wasn't missing something and I think I may have. Never had to potentially file a claim before but here is what I'm thinking;

There is a clause that allows for reimbursement of non-refundable expenses (David's) if the Insured (my husband and I) or Travel Companion (we're going with a group of 9 other adults and 5 kids) loses their job at no fault of their own. Out of those 11 adults, 4 have been furloughed/let go from their jobs. That's the main reason we knew we weren't going. Half of the group can't afford to go anymore! It says it does not apply to seasonal, temporary, independent contractors or self employed which none of them fit.

I'm interpreting that I may be able to file a claim with some proof that those people are furloughed/laid off and are currently not working thus getting my funds back that I paid David's without doing a charge back. Is this a stretch or am I on to something?

When are/were you scheduled to travel? If it’s after the job loss, I believe you will be covered. If it’s before job loss then you may need to proceed in a different manner.

 

[Grnl706]

When are/were you scheduled to travel? If it’s after the job loss, I believe you will be covered. If it’s before job loss then you may need to proceed in a different manner.

Our trip is in June and the job loss started for one person at the end of March and the rest about a week ago.

 

[cm8]

Our trip is in June and the job loss started for one person at the end of March and the rest about a week ago.

I wouldn’t hesitate to reach out and go that route. I’d get it done ASAP. Then, hold on to that in your back pocket.... While you are pursuing that option, tell no one until due time. Sometimes it’s best not to let your right hand know what your left hand is doing!

 

[LawrenceFamily]

Is there anywhere in the contract that says we cannot contact the renters directly? I want to just contact them and say that I am willing to change their reservation but it is time dependent.

No there is nothing in either agreement (owner or renter) that restricts each other from contacting one another.

 

[OrangeCountyCommuter]

I have never rented or dealt with David. But I have dealt with bankrupt firms before. I’ve been on teams trying to untangle the mess so that the new owners can figure out what they got. And everything about this tells me David’s has a cash flow problem. He has been living off of the holdback money. That money has not been properly secured to be available to pay the owner. Basically as long as the cash kept flowing the game worked. Cash is no longer flowing the game is not working and he is trying to claw back payments to stave off financial collapse.


If you are an owner realize that if you return the cash it’s only going to keep the company going. I don’t think he legally has any right to it. I’ve never seen a bankruptcy where paying legitimate creditors was reversed

If you are a renter, file a chargeback on your credit card TODAY. Do not wait. This is probably not going to end well

 

[LawrenceFamily]

I have never rented or dealt with David. But I have dealt with bankrupt firms before. I’ve been on teams trying to untangle the mess so that the new owners can figure out what they got. And everything about this tells me David’s has a cash flow problem. He has been living off of the holdback money. That money has not been properly secured to be available to pay the owner. Basically as long as the cash kept flowing the game worked. Cash is no longer flowing the game is not working and he is trying to claw back payments to stave off financial collapse.


If you are an owner realize that if you return the cash it’s only going to keep the company going. I don’t think he legally has any right to it. I’ve never seen a bankruptcy where paying legitimate creditors was reversed

If you are a renter, file a chargeback on your credit card TODAY. Do not wait. This is probably not going to end well

Do you really believe that David's are going to go bankrupt? Would be typical considering we have just rented 230 points to them for February 2021 reservations! Personally think there will be more than enough people renting points for next year to keep cash flow moving and as soon as Disney re-open in the next couple of months, things will start to get back to normal.