Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[CraigInPA]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure one of the purposes of chargeback protection is for cases where a business is insolvent and can't provide the paid-for product/service. So, if David's were to go out of business, it seems to me a chargeback is almost a certainty at that point. Am I missing something there?

Once a company declares bankruptcy, its bank accounts are frozen until the receiver can take control. The receiver will open new accounts, and close the old ones, making a chargeback impossible. So, of you hear they have declared bankruptcy, it is too late to do a chargeback.

 

[McCrae]

You sound like the guy who said he's going to cancel 5 reservations and keep the money. A real class act.

You have a false sense of entitlement. If an owner decides to help, it’s out of goodwill. We don’t have to do anything. Attempts to put pressure on owners will just backfire on renters. If you want a stand off carry on, see how that works out.
Being humble and grateful for help is far more likely to be successful than your approach.

 

[fsjking]

No. The broker promised a “risk-free” transaction for the owner.

“The balance of funds owing to you is paid on the day of guest check-in. Reservations are NON-REFUNDABLE, so you get your money regardless of whether or not the guest checks into the resort. We hold back the final 30% to ensure that the guests have a room on arrival. You are committed to keeping your dues and mortgages current so as not to harm any reservations.”

IMO, the broker took on the risk when they accepted a fee to act as an intermediary for my points and the renter’s reservation using a poorly-written rental agreement.

That's the first time I've seen that. The "We hold back the final 30% to ensure that the guests have a room on arrival." line suggests that the owners are not entitled to the 30% as the guests don't have a room. Granted, I don't think that's a contract you are quoting.

You have a false sense of entitlement. If an owner decides to help, it’s out of goodwill. We don’t have to do anything. Attempts to put pressure on owners will just backfire on renters. If you want a stand off carry on, see how that works out.
Being humble and grateful for help is far more likely to be successful than your approach.

You have a contract. You are required to follow it. If someone wants to go to the full extent to pursue legal action, I have no doubt that the owners who choose to keep the points and money would lose.

Stating you are from the UK and no one can find you is just showing your character and that you likely intend to commit fraud in regards to the contract you signed. That says all anyone needs to know about you.

 

[TheWheel]

Once a company declares bankruptcy, its bank accounts are frozen until the receiver can take control. The receiver will open new accounts, and close the old ones, making a chargeback impossible. So, of you hear they have declared bankruptcy, it is too late to do a chargeback.

I don't know enough of the ins and outs but I know the following scenario is possible as I have seen it happen in another business. If David is smart and shady he could also be using this time and deferred monies to be upping his debt from David's DVC to another organization that he owns or is affiliated with. Ensuring that the highest creditor is owed $1 more than the value of the organization means a scenario where only one creditor potentially gets paid. So say David's travel agency business is legally separate and takes on all these bookings for cash vacations and is the sole secured creditor, guess who the only company / person that gets paid in bankruptcy is?

 

[Marionnette]

That's the first time I've seen that. The "We hold back the final 30% to ensure that the guests have a room on arrival." line suggests that the owners are not entitled to the 30% as the guests don't have a room. Granted, I don't think that's a contract you are quoting.

It’s on their website.

https://dvcrequest.com/dvc-owners/information
Scroll down to “What’s the process?”

 

[McCrae]

That's the first time I've seen that. The "We hold back the final 30% to ensure that the guests have a room on arrival." line suggests that the owners are not entitled to the 30% as the guests don't have a room. Granted, I don't think that's a contract you are quoting.



You have a contract. You are required to follow it. If someone wants to go to the full extent to pursue legal action, I have no doubt that the owners who choose to keep the points and money would lose.

Stating you are from the UK and no one can find you is just showing your character and that you likely intend to commit fraud in regards to the contract you signed. That says all anyone needs to know about you.

Fraud. You have no idea what you are talking about. You are in my ignore list.

 

[lovethesun12]

I would agree that it’s “double dipping” IF the points are returned to the owner in the same condition that they were in at the time that they were rented. Unfortunately, that’s not always the case.

I got “lucky” compared to other owners. My “renter” is my niece and her husband. They were due to arrive in the middle of May. I contacted her at the beginning of April and then again last week to encourage her to reschedule. I have a September use year and some of those were 2019 points which needed to be banked by 4/30., Some were borrowed from 2020 and DVC put them back into the 2020 use year. Only 2 were banked in from 2018 (I’ll be losing those on Aug 31). I was able to re-book her for November, although not in her original resort and accommodations.

I would have done the same for some who rented directly from me, but I might not have refunded the cost of the 2 points that I lost.

Now consider that instead of this being my niece, let’s pretend that this was a rental thru David’s. I would not have been able to contact the renter to see if they wanted to reschedule their trip. I would not have been able to cancel the reservation. I would have had to wait until Disney canceled it in May. At that point, I would have been past my banking deadline and those points would be toast as of August 31. The borrowed points would have gone back into the 2020 use year according to what DVC is currently doing. And the two banked points would still be lost. So, out of the “returned” points, fewer than half would actually be usable at full value for a future reservation and the remainder would be severely “distressed” and virtually un-rentable before they expire. Would it be “double-dipping” if I didn’t return what David’s had paid me up to this point if more than half of those points are useless due to David’s unwillingness to do their job as an intermediary and work with both the renter and myself to reschedule?

If you didn't return what he paid you up front and you used the points yourself or rented them, it would be double-dipping.

If you didn't return what he paid you up front and the points expired (because they were not usable - which expiring in August I'm sure they would be), it would not be double dipping, and you would likely be entitled to the remaining 30% (depending on the wording of your contract).

 

[Grnl706]

Wow...this thread got pretty sad really quickly.

 

[New Mouse]

Davids taking the hefty commission that they do is akin to the owner having insurance. Rather than renting points out for $20 myself, I let Davids keep $6 for ease of use and peace of mind if something were to go wrong. If not, why use Davids?

As a business, Davids should have a cash fund and/or insurance for instances like these. If they choose not to, thats on them. No business should exist without a years worth of cash to get by.

 

[fsjking]

Fraud. You have no idea what you are talking about. You are in my ignore list.

Thank god. Hopefully that means I won't see any more of your posts saying how you can hide from anyone trying to get their money back for the cancelled reservation you were contractually required to deliver. That you think that David's doesn't have your info makes me think you misunderstand who the stupid people in your meme are.

 

[Yinn]

That's the first time I've seen that. The "We hold back the final 30% to ensure that the guests have a room on arrival." line suggests that the owners are not entitled to the 30% as the guests don't have a room. Granted, I don't think that's a contract you are quoting.

Actual contract language:

• Paying the DVC Owner for rented points used to secure reservations, at the price agreed with Intermediary, payable 70% after the reservation is made and 100% of the funds for the reservation have been collected by Intermediary from the guest, and the balance at the time of check-in

Not that it matters since Davids is not honoring their own contract and the contract itself contradicts itself in multiple places.

The only thing I’m certain of is that I’d happily “rent” my points to friends and family. I would also happily use them myself, bank them and book a bungalow. From now on, I’d also happily let renters pay Disney directly at their prices - as I’m sure you renters will gladly do as well.

Davids has done it. Pit the owners against the renters rather than face them both. Well done.

 

[fsjking]

Actual contract language:

• Paying the DVC Owner for rented points used to secure reservations, at the price agreed with Intermediary, payable 70% after the reservation is made and 100% of the funds for the reservation have been collected by Intermediary from the guest, and the balance at the time of check-in

Not that it matters since Davids is not honoring their own contract and the contract itself contradicts itself in multiple places.

The only thing I’m certain of is that I’d happily “rent” my points to friends and family. I would also happily use them myself, bank them and book a bungalow. From now on, I’d also happily let renters pay Disney directly at their prices - as I’m sure you renters will gladly do as well.

Davids has done it. Pit the owners against the renters rather than face them both. Well done.

Yeah, David's has done themselves no favors here. On some level this was inevitable. With the nature of expiring points, someone was going to have to take a loss here. It's really not fair to make any party take the brunt of that, but as the middleman, the broker is going to take the hit. Even if they return every dollar they are holding, the owners and renters wouldn't be satisfied. The voucher system, in a vacuum, is fine. But with Renters wanting full refunds and owners expecting 100% payment, there's it won't work.

The end result of this, like you suggested, Renters will have to pay Disney rates, and Owners will have to find some other way to sell or use their points. The rental market probably dies or takes a major hit. Renters are going to not going to be willing to agree to rent under a "no refunds if the resort closes" clause. Owners will all have to come up with their own contracts and accept the responsibility that entails.

Disney probably benefits the most, economy crashing notwithstanding. More people paying their rates and more points going unused.

 

[DougEMG]

Yeah, David's has done themselves no favors here. On some level this was inevitable. With the nature of expiring points, someone was going to have to take a loss here. It's really not fair to make any party take the brunt of that, but as the middleman, the broker is going to take the hit. Even if they return every dollar they are holding, the owners and renters wouldn't be satisfied. The voucher system, in a vacuum, is fine. But with Renters wanting full refunds and owners expecting 100% payment, there's it won't work.

The end result of this, like you suggested, Renters will have to pay Disney rates, and Owners will have to find some other way to sell or use their points. The rental market probably dies or takes a major hit. Renters are going to not going to be willing to agree to rent under a "no refunds if the resort closes" clause. Owners will all have to come up with their own contracts and accept the responsibility that entails.

Disney probably benefits the most, economy crashing notwithstanding. More people paying their rates and more points going unused.

I don't think the rental market dies. It will have to evolve and come up with ways to deal with resort closures that are clearly spelled out in the contracts.

While the number of renters will shrink, the number of brokers will shrink as well. I think if anything this benefits private rentals as it is much easier for an owner to deal with with an individual renter to work out these types of issues out.

In the last 2 days I have had renters emailing me looking to do a rental and I am not even advertising points for rent right now.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

Yes, in my previous post I mentioned if the "points can be reused by the owner and Disney returns the points, then it is double-dipping". This is clearly reported in some posts in this thread. By Davids dragging their feet and trying to come up with a voucher and not allowing the owners and renters work together immediately (as soon as the resorts are closed), then points like yours have become not usable. Not all owners are in the same situation and can easily help the renter reschedule if allowed by Davids.

I think most owners involved in this mess are willing to help out the renters if they can. Sure, there are probably a few unscrupulous owners with points that aren't expiring who might take advantage of the situation, but I think they are few and far between.

It sure seems like David's is preventing renters from getting their situation resolved in some cases in order to prop up their voucher plan. If owners give the money back to David's it might indirectly benefit some renter somewhere. But I can also understand why owners would not want to give funds back to David's, not because of greed, but because returning the money to David's only benefits David's. It's not being refunded to their renters, and when the Ponzi voucher house of cards collapses, then the renters AND the owners will have lost out.

 

[Dracula]

They don’t have to necessarily refund the full amount. Refund what they hold (44% of paid) and wait until I refund to refund the rest. Consider it good faith



So you got legal notice? So it isn't - hey can you anymore. It's a - hey you MUST.
Quite frankly if that's the case, I'll pre-emptively cancel my future rentals and return all the money as I have no confidence in the company at that point.

This is not a good idea, because according to the contract with David’s, an owner is not supposed to cancel or change the DVC reservation. The owner may then be liable for more than just the 70% - any other travel costs incurred by the buyer would become the owner’s liability, according to the contract. The story is different if Disney cancels or David’s defaults.

 

[Mumof4mice]

@CraigInPA thanks for your informative posts.

Do you believe owners are within our right to refund what we've been paid, cancel the reservation and walk away?

I have 3 rentals brokered by David's in Nov/Dec. I was resigned to honouring the reservations (losing the 30%) if David's went into bankruptcy before the check in dates. However if cancel and refund is a legal option that would be preferable.

We don't intend to travel internationally before a vaccine is available. But I'd rather gift a staycation to my US friends (if it's safe for them to do so) than throw away my points for $10pp.

 

[McCrae]

@CraigInPA thanks for your informative posts.

Do you believe owners are within our right to refund what we've been paid, cancel the reservation and walk away?

I have 3 rentals brokered by David's in Nov/Dec. I was resigned to honouring the reservations (losing the 30%) if David's went into bankruptcy before the check in dates. However if cancel and refund is a legal option that would be preferable.

We don't intend to travel internationally before a vaccine is available. But I'd rather gift a staycation to my US friends (if it's safe for them to do so) than throw away my points for $10pp.

If you cancel you could become liable for other costs the renters have associated with the reservation. This includes flights/car hire.

 

[Grnl706]

I think most owners involved in this mess are willing to help out the renters if they can. Sure, there are probably a few unscrupulous owners with points that aren't expiring who might take advantage of the situation, but I think they are few and far between.

It sure seems like David's is preventing renters from getting their situation resolved in some cases in order to prop up their voucher plan. If owners give the money back to David's it might indirectly benefit some renter somewhere. But I can also understand why owners would not want to give funds back to David''s, not because of greed, but because returning the money to David's only benefits David's. It's not being refunded to their renters, and when the Ponzi voucher house of cards collapses, then the renters AND the owners will have lost out.

I couldn't understand why David's is keeping the renters and owners from working things out. I asked to be linked up with my owner via email but their response to my overall email ignored that point. They just told me to wait until mid-May and if my resort was closed I'd be extended this Travel Voucher mess. I'll be paying extra to book through Disney when I come again. This is so frustrating. They just want to hold on to as much $$ as possible.

 

[lovethesun12]

@CraigInPA thanks for your informative posts.

Do you believe owners are within our right to refund what we've been paid, cancel the reservation and walk away?

I have 3 rentals brokered by David's in Nov/Dec. I was resigned to honouring the reservations (losing the 30%) if David's went into bankruptcy before the check in dates. However if cancel and refund is a legal option that would be preferable.

We don't intend to travel internationally before a vaccine is available. But I'd rather gift a staycation to my US friends (if it's safe for them to do so) than throw away my points for $10pp.

If I were you, I would definitely contact them and ask for that option. They may give you the go ahead, and if they don't it will show you tried to mitigate damages in advance if you wanted the 30%.

 

[lovethesun12]

I don't understand why some owners/renters want to talk to the other party so badly. Why did you go through David's if you want to deal directly?

I'd rather go through the rental company and be contacted that way - that's why I used them.