Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[toniosmom]

This is like a supplier demanding strict payment terms during this unprecedented situation from a distributor, to the point of possibly pushing the distributor out of business.

As an owner, I definitely want to see them survive. I used them and gave them their commission so I didn't have to deal with finding renters to being with. I think a vibrant rental market enabled by brokers like David's help the resale value for all owners.

YES!!! That's exactly what I'm talking about. If you can, be patient. With my current life situation, I have too many points to use each year, so I need to rent them. I rely on a service like David's -- I don't want to deal with the legalities of rental contracts, etc. I don't want them to go out of business and neither should anyone else. There are many small business owners in the same or similar predicament -- we all know someone struggling to keep their once-thriving business afloat during this crisis. Many need a break right now and if you're in a position to give one, please do.

 

[Sandisw]

He'll have to use his commission to make up for the shortfall. If no one will rent him points he's going to go into bankruptcy anyway, so the same as if he just goes out of business now.



You are correct on the 153%/170%. Still 153% is a pretty significant loss. It doesn't really matter why an owner chooses to keep the money in that scenario. David's still has to eat the loss.

On which rate, they will be all new contracts. Owners who booked prior to February would actually get paid more for their points as they'd be under the new price structure. He could change the pricing structure again, but that's the same as those saying the vouchers expire in January. That's looking to make things worse without any actual proof.



They will get another trip. That's the idea behind the voucher. They aren't out anything but time.
The owner doesn't have to suck anything up. They can return the 70% and wash their hands of the entire deal.
There are plenty of agencies in this same spot. As has been quoted in this thread, Stubhub isn't doing refunds either.
And bankruptcy is a much bigger deal than losing a vacation or having to pay the maintenance fees that you contracted to do when you bought your timeshare. I get people are pissed about the situation, but get some perspective here.



Cancellations are on a rolling basis within 7 days of the check in date. They covered that in the closed until further notice PR. The governors order doesn't change that. We know they'll be cancelled, but the official cancellations will be on that schedule. I'm sure a lot of that is to make it more manageable on the call centers.



Just know that if it goes into bankruptcy, theres nothing that says that the courts can't come after the 70%. You may want to think they won't or can't, but they can. They only way you get a clean break is to send the 70% back.



Contractually it matters. The contract doesn't allow the owner to cancel the reservation under any circumstances. An owner cancelling the reservation is one of the things that actually spells out that a renter can get a refund. If DVC cancels it, it gets us into this legal quandary we've been beating on. That may not apply in your case, but it matters to others considering cancelling before DVC does it.

Then, the Renter would get money and not voucher, correct?

While i do not like what he is doing, my comments are not meant to seem like I want him to go under, but rather if the owner is willing to refund or reschedule, then Davids should continue to be the broker and allow the original parties to settle this situation

He doesn’t want owners contacting renters to reschedule...that is what is being reported.

If he had said to owners, if you can reschedule please reach out to the renters, then he’d be dealing with a lot less headache, and actually, be working towards keeping owners and renters happy,

 

[McCrae]

He'll have to use his commission to make up for the shortfall. If no one will rent him points he's going to go into bankruptcy anyway, so the same as if he just goes out of business now.



You are correct on the 153%/170%. Still 153% is a pretty significant loss. It doesn't really matter why an owner chooses to keep the money in that scenario. David's still has to eat the loss.

On which rate, they will be all new contracts. Owners who booked prior to February would actually get paid more for their points as they'd be under the new price structure. He could change the pricing structure again, but that's the same as those saying the vouchers expire in January. That's looking to make things worse without any actual proof.



They will get another trip. That's the idea behind the voucher. They aren't out anything but time.
The owner doesn't have to suck anything up. They can return the 70% and wash their hands of the entire deal.
There are plenty of agencies in this same spot. As has been quoted in this thread, Stubhub isn't doing refunds either.
And bankruptcy is a much bigger deal than losing a vacation or having to pay the maintenance fees that you contracted to do when you bought your timeshare. I get people are pissed about the situation, but get some perspective here.



Cancellations are on a rolling basis within 7 days of the check in date. They covered that in the closed until further notice PR. The governors order doesn't change that. We know they'll be cancelled, but the official cancellations will be on that schedule. I'm sure a lot of that is to make it more manageable on the call centers.



Just know that if it goes into bankruptcy, theres nothing that says that the courts can't come after the 70%. You may want to think they won't or can't, but they can. They only way you get a clean break is to send the 70% back.



Contractually it matters. The contract doesn't allow the owner to cancel the reservation under any circumstances. An owner cancelling the reservation is one of the things that actually spells out that a renter can get a refund. If DVC cancels it, it gets us into this legal quandary we've been beating on. That may not apply in your case, but it matters to others considering cancelling before DVC does it.

Bankruptcy court can only go after David‘s debtors. I am not and will not be registered as a debtor to him. I owe him nothing.

 

[Krandor]

Bankruptcy court can only go after David‘s debtors. I am not and will not be registered as a debtor to him. I owe him nothing.

Correct and even if the reading of the contract that the owners have to pay back the 70% is right (I don't think it is), the only way David's can make then return the money is to sue the owner and being a canadian compay that would be expensive and would not be a good way to get owners to work with you in the future.

 

[tallguy001]

I‘d expect/hope owners and renters would look out for their best interests and not the interests of an increasingly shady company. Some may be willing to take the hit, some may not. Each individual situation is different.

 

[LAX]

This is like a supplier demanding strict payment terms during this unprecedented situation from a distributor, to the point of possibly pushing the distributor out of business.

As an owner, I definitely want to see them survive. I used them and gave them their commission so I didn't have to deal with finding renters to being with. I think a vibrant rental market enabled by brokers like David's help the resale value for all owners.

As an owner myself, I certainly want a vibrant rental market for the occasional time that I end up not using the points myself. However, a vibrant rental market doesn't have to include brokers like David's. I realize this may sound harsh, but David's has really screwed this one up. While he may not have other choices, screwing the owners is definitely not the way to make things right. I will look for another broker in the future if I end up needing to rent my points.

LAX

 

[Maddiesmum03]

Perhaps I'm missing something here. Has anyone been told that you would no longer get the remaining 30% upon check-in on a new reservation? Or is this an assumption?

I rented out my points and was paid 70%. When those points are re-rented, I only expect the remaining 30% at time of the new check-in date. Its the same points that are being rented. I already have the 70%. That makes me whole. My points are in use and I didn't lose anything. So, why would you hold out for 100% payment before re-renting the SAME points? Then there is no protection for the renter if the owner decides to be a jerk (not that you are) and cancel their reservation. The 30% is supposed to be their assurance that you will keep the reservation available for check-in.

Of course, the scenario would be different if the points are no longer usable.....the owner should not take on that loss. But, I don't think that's the situation you are referring to in your comment.

No, I have been told I will get the 30% for the April reservation once I make a reservation (at least that is how I understand the email) but if David’s are already saying I will not get the money at the original check in date as per our contract, then how can I have any faith that they will stay true to their word this time? if they move the goal posts and say I will get my money when the new check in date comes around, I will have waited around 22 months for that money. That is assuming David’s will be around in 11 months or so to complete the new contract. You are right, no new renter will have any faith in the reservation if I have had full payment, which is why I would rather the new rental could just be a rescheduled vacation for the original renter, made with goodwill that they get what they originally paid for.
I know these are strange circumstances and I really do feel for the renters who seem to be losing out which is why I am happy to reschedule for them with the points they rented (not that David’s seems set on this course of action) but quite honestly, I could really do with those dollars I was counting on right now, not next year or never which is why I am holding out for payment before making any new reservations. It is the only bargaining chip I have.

 

[Stitch_Is_King]

What are the other brokers doing? Haven't seen posts about any other brokers.

We rented from another broker and right now are stuck in limbo. The broker initally offered to allow us to rebook and sent us dates that were available. We selected our dates, which were in October, only to hear back from the broker that there was a mistake and the owner's points had to be used by September 30th. None of the other dates they offered are dates we can travel so the broker said our only option was to see if the owner could rent the points to another customer, if that was successful, we would be refunded. Otherwise it looks like we are out the money.

 

[GoingSince1990]

We rented from another broker and right now are stuck in limbo. The broker initally offered to allow us to rebook and sent us dates that were available. We selected our dates, which were in October, only to hear back from the broker that there was a mistake and the owner's points had to be used by September 30th. None of the other dates they offered are dates we can travel so the broker said our only option was to see if the owner could rent the points to another customer, if that was successful, we would be refunded. Otherwise it looks like we are out the money.

Did you pay by credit card and was the reservation canceled because of the resort being closed? If so, I would dispute the charge.

 

[Stitch_Is_King]

Did you pay by credit card and was the reservation canceled because of the resort being closed? If so, I would dispute the charge.

We did pay by credit card. The reason we could not go was because the resort was closed. The broker said we needed to give permission for them to cancel the reservation so they could work on attempting to rent the points to another customer. My guess is that might protect them if we tried to dispute the charge.

 

[LAX]

We rented from another broker and right now are stuck in limbo. The broker initally offered to allow us to rebook and sent us dates that were available. We selected our dates, which were in October, only to hear back from the broker that there was a mistake and the owner's points had to be used by September 30th. None of the other dates they offered are dates we can travel so the broker said our only option was to see if the owner could rent the points to another customer, if that was successful, we would be refunded. Otherwise it looks like we are out the money.

Curious if your contract has any wording that discusses what happens if the resort is closed due to "no one's fault." My guess is other brokers may face a similar problem as David's is now. However, the volume at other brokers may be more manageable, though.

LAX

 

[ziravan]

Perhaps I'm missing something here. Has anyone been told that you would no longer get the remaining 30% upon check-in on a new reservation? Or is this an assumption?

I rented out my points and was paid 70%. When those points are re-rented, I only expect the remaining 30% at time of the new check-in date. Its the same points that are being rented. I already have the 70%. That makes me whole. My points are in use and I didn't lose anything. So, why would you hold out for 100% payment before re-renting the SAME points? Then there is no protection for the renter if the owner decides to be a jerk (not that you are) and cancel their reservation. The 30% is supposed to be their assurance that you will keep the reservation available for check-in.

Of course, the scenario would be different if the points are no longer usable.....the owner should not take on that loss. But, I don't think that's the situation you are referring to in your comment.

If you re-rent and, as is likely, David’s goes under, then you have to decide whether to cancel the reservation because you won’t ever get the 30%, or eat the 30% because that’s not the renter’s fault either.

Obviously, I don’t think most owners would leave a new renter high and dry. But rather than eat that 30% later, I’d make better decisions now.

If I have a current reservation, maybe I feel indebted to the current renter. I’m dang sure not going to create that problem with a new renter eyes wide open.

If I didn’t get paid the remaining 30% up front, I wouldn’t rebook.

 

[fsjking]

Then, the Renter would get money and not voucher, correct?

While i do not like what he is doing, my comments are not meant to seem like I want him to go under, but rather if the owner is willing to refund or reschedule, then Davids should continue to be the broker and allow the original parties to settle this situation

He doesn’t want owners contacting renters to reschedule...that is what is being reported.

If he had said to owners, if you can reschedule please reach out to the renters, then he’d be dealing with a lot less headache, and actually, be working towards keeping owners and renters happy,

I just think that his best bet is to be consistent across the board if he's going to have any hope of keeping everyone from asking for refunds and the company going bankrupt. Allowing each owner/renter combo to negotiate separately is asking for trouble. Too hard to keep track of that way. The voucher system, in theory will be consistent.There are going to be plenty of owners taking advantage of this situation. Probably some renters that try to get a travel credit and a chargeback too.

Bankruptcy court can only go after David‘s debtors. I am not and will not be registered as a debtor to him. I owe him nothing.

You have a contract with him. I get that you think you fulfilled that contract, but if there are hundreds or thousands of contracts for millions of dollars outstanding and hundreds or thousands of chargebacks and this goes into bankruptcy, with those numbers, lawyers will go after the money. If the judge says you got your points back and you need to return the 70%, you'll have to pay. They won't argue with you, they'll just send a collection agency after you and probably put a lien on your timeshare when you try to say you don't have to pay. If you think a judge will take your side. Good luck with that.

 

[Sandisw]

I just think that his best bet is to be consistent across the board if he's going to have any hope of keeping everyone from asking for refunds and the company going bankrupt. Allowing each owner/renter combo to negotiate separately is asking for trouble. Too hard to keep track of that way. The voucher system, in theory will be consistent.There are going to be plenty of owners taking advantage of this situation. Probably some renters that try to get a travel credit and a chargeback too.



You have a contract with him. I get that you think you fulfilled that contract, but if there are hundreds or thousands of contracts for millions of dollars outstanding and hundreds or thousands of chargebacks and this goes into bankruptcy, with those numbers, lawyers will go after the money. If the judge says you got your points back and you need to return the 70%, you'll have to pay. They won't argue with you, they'll just send a collection agency after you and probably put a lien on your timeshare when you try to say you don't have to pay. If you think a judge will take your side. Good luck with that.

Maybe I’m not saying it right, The owner has a three way contract with Davids and the renter, Davids has decided, on his own, to void the terms of that contract, with both people, by telling the renter they get a voucher for points from a different owner, and telling the owner to return money or rent your points to a different renter,

Unilaterally deciding to simply void contracts and changing the terms IS a problem, regardless of his reasons or motives.

As I said, I have a renter in August coming and we will see by then what happens. I won’t leave the renter without a reservation but I definitely, will not be choosing one of these options because I don’t believe he has the legal right to handle it this way.

 

[McCrae]

I just think that his best bet is to be consistent across the board if he's going to have any hope of keeping everyone from asking for refunds and the company going bankrupt. Allowing each owner/renter combo to negotiate separately is asking for trouble. Too hard to keep track of that way. The voucher system, in theory will be consistent.There are going to be plenty of owners taking advantage of this situation. Probably some renters that try to get a travel credit and a chargeback too.



You have a contract with him. I get that you think you fulfilled that contract, but if there are hundreds or thousands of contracts for millions of dollars outstanding and hundreds or thousands of chargebacks and this goes into bankruptcy, with those numbers, lawyers will go after the money. If the judge says you got your points back and you need to return the 70%, you'll have to pay. They won't argue with you, they'll just send a collection agency after you and probably put a lien on your timeshare when you try to say you don't have to pay. If you think a judge will take your side. Good luck with that.

I’m based in the U.K. No chance will I be pursued.

 

[Amymouse13]

So basic logic on contracts is the terms cannot be changed unless everyone agrees to them. David's cannot say well Disney was closed you need to do x bc it was not spelled out in contract. If the check-in never occurred bc Disney is closed yet again not in contract. If renter's contract is cancelled bc Disney is closed either by owner or Disney, still not in contract. I'd guess best chance of success is renters arguing they never received something they paid for, probably a chargeback. I'm not sold owners owe David anything especially in cases were the points expire before anyone can use them. Not to mention I'm not sure a Canadian bankruptcy has any jurisdiction in US. If my points were expiring I could not see reason I should be left in negative. Definitely the rebooking 70% of points makes sense, but with any of this it is an amendment to a contract. I don't feel as renter I'm required to amend my contract where I paid when my reservation was secured a year ago to risk my 4-5k without being tied to an actual reservation. The original agreement was I paid after a reservation was secured, he wants to amend to pay for voucher from him... No deal.

 

[Stitch_Is_King]

Curious if your contract has any wording that discusses what happens if the resort is closed due to "no one's fault." My guess is other brokers may face a similar problem as David's is now. However, the volume at other brokers may be more manageable, though.

LAX

Here is what I could find in the contract:

The broker or the Member shall not be responsible for any injuries, damages, or losses caused to the Guest or Guest's travel party in connection with terrorist activities, social, or labor unrest, mechanical or construction failures or difficulties, diseases, local laws, climatic conditions, criminal acts or abnormal conditions or developments, or any other actions, omissions, or conditions outside the broker's or the Member's control.

 

[Amymouse13]

Here is what I could find in the contract:

The broker or the Member shall not be responsible for any injuries, damages, or losses caused to the Guest or Guest's travel party in connection with terrorist activities, social, or labor unrest, mechanical or construction failures or difficulties, diseases, local laws, climatic conditions, criminal acts or abnormal conditions or developments, or any other actions, omissions, or conditions outside the broker's or the Member's control.

Right I can't sue owner if myself or party is injured for any of those reasons while there... Generic liability clause

 

[fsjking]

Maybe I’m not saying it right, The owner has a three way contract with Davids and the renter, Davids has decided, on his own, to void the terms of that contract, with both people, by telling the renter they get a voucher for points from a different owner, and telling the owner to return money or rent your points to a different renter,

Unilaterally deciding to simply void contracts and changing the terms IS a problem, regardless of his reasons or motives.

As I said, I have a renter in August coming and we will see by then what happens. I won’t leave the renter without a reservation but I definitely, will not be choosing one of these options because I don’t believe he has the legal right to handle it this way.

I think the contract was voided when the resorts closed. Now there is a valid question of whether he can make the changes he is making with a void contract. I think it certainly wouldn't hold up under scrutiny in court. He'd lose that. But if the contracts are void, are the owners legally obligated to return the money they were paid? This is a mess on so many levels.

I’m based in the U.K. No chance will I be pursued.

The property is deeded in Florida. You being in the UK actually puts you at a disadvantage trying to defend it if it goes that far. But you clearly have your mind made up, so I'm not going to keep trying to explain the problem with your logic.

 

[LAX]

Here is what I could find in the contract:

The broker or the Member shall not be responsible for any injuries, damages, or losses caused to the Guest or Guest's travel party in connection with terrorist activities, social, or labor unrest, mechanical or construction failures or difficulties, diseases, local laws, climatic conditions, criminal acts or abnormal conditions or developments, or any other actions, omissions, or conditions outside the broker's or the Member's control.

Thanks for posting. I am not trying to imply whether you are in a better or worse position in obtaining a refund relative to those rented from David's. However, the excerpt seems to be more restrictive on a potential renter's claim for reimbursement/refund when issues arise outside of the broker's or owner's control.

LAX