Crazies on the Community Board

[ConcKahuna]

Got Quattro, I have to say your post makes you seem like the type of person who is very homophobic, but won't admit it because it's not popular to do so.

There is currently a lot of reserch on what may cause homosexuality. Recent research shows that it is very likely that most cases of homosexuality are caused by genetics (http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/news/20050128/is-there-gay-gene is a good, unbiased report). To me, this also explains the seeming "explosion" of the number of gay people in the US in past decades.

In the past, the US seemed to be more "anit-gay" than many other countries (and this is actually still true today IMHO). I have known several gay people who have had children while they were in the closet, and I knew a few kids in high school with gay parents. As more people come out later in life, I think you will find that in many cases they have gay children or grandchildren. I definitly see it as a recessive genetic trait, but that is why I think we are seeing what seems to be more and more gay people in recent generations.

 

[DVC~OKW~96]

I would add, that a genetic connection to being gay, or lesbian supports the genetic connection to being a heterosexual. Therefore, why is one viewed as abnormal and the other the favored norm?

Why is it not seen as a perfect balance of nature and genetic evolution to have categories of sexual orientation that support reproduction, and those that don't necessarily exist for that sole purpose?

Gays and lesbians have children. Heterosexuals don't. No real revelation there, eh?

Just because segments of society do not understand genetics, or the ability of a species to evolve doesn't mean that those of us who do understand are abnormal.

Just think, perhaps our children, (OK, maybe not until our grandchildren) will see being Gay or Lesbian as a genetic evolution to a higher form of existence.

Got Equality?

 

[NYBlue1]

I am the one who wrote that and feal compelled to answer.

First, I am not homophobic. But believe, likemost people, that in nature, man and woman are mates. I belleive in god, but also undertsand that nature takes it's course. We as a species could not propigate if same gender sex was "normal".

That being said.....I have no problem with people wanting to go be with someone of their own gender.

But, as a father, trying to raise a 6 year old daughter, it is difficult to explain when she knows mommy and daddy as partners he entire life, then see's to men kissing in public. Then sees shows on TV with men being gay (will and grace). (yes, we controll her TV, but stuff happens).

My point was, children are bombarded with gay and lesbianism on TV, in the movies, in print. And yes, the rainbow which has been adopted by the community.

Now if you say that gay and lesbians were born with that orientation, I can understand that. But again, most of the worlds population is not orientated that way and having to defend our children from that type of content is hard. If they see enough of it, then there may be a "choice" to go that way. So that is why i dont by the a "we were bron this way".

It is a choice for most, and it's not how nature / god intended the hman species.

I am entitled to my view points just like you are. It's not hate to have believes that dont match yours.

Eventually, a common ground will be found. Untill then we all just have to ride the waves.

Thanks

Its not hate to have diffrent opinions than others by any stretch of the imagination.

Its kidding yourself to think your opinions are not hurtful to people that are just like you except for the people they love.

Nobody on the face of this earth would choose to be treated the way homosexuals are day in and day out, like animals , acutally less than animals by people that have "opinions" like you do.

Dont kid yourself , your acting like a homophobe no matter how much you want to pretend you are just having a diffrent "opinion". We all get how you feel, we have heard it a million times before throught all our lives, you are not telling us anything we dont know, you are not doing anything but making our days a little less pleasant with your opinions.

If you truly mean well, and are trying to give us insite into you "non homophobic homophbia" mission acomplished. No need to go on and on, we really do "get" where your comming from.

Thanks for stopping by and explaining yourself

 

[lillielil]

There are a few, albeit trivial, reasons why allowing gays into the military could be a problem. I was in Basic Training seven years ago. The first week or two, soldiers are put in "retention" while they get their uniforms, take their first PT tests, learn the ins and outs of military life, etc. We slept in huge bays with 50 or so girls, guys with guys, etc. While I personally didn't give a crap who I slept in the same room with, I do know of many girls that went through Basic with me, who would feel uncomfortable sleeping in the same room with a lesbian, just like they would feel if guys were allowed to sleep in the room.
The only part I would have an issue with, would be the shower situation. The older facilities have giant shower "rooms". A big room, tiled, no stalls...just about 10 spouts and a few drains. I would not feel comfortable showering with anyone who was attracted to the female sex, man or woman. I would constantly feel self conscious about my body. As would most girls. I imagine so would most guys. Once you make it to your company, you are put with a smaller amount of girls, like 30. The bathrooms are newer, at least they have stalls, not that they have doors.....Basically, at night, we would have to toe the line, Drill Sgt. would go over stuff for the day, and next day, etc. We had SEVEN (we got more time as we got farther along in the course) minutes to get showered, ready for bed, and back on the line. She would say go, we would all run for the bathroom, strip, get in line buck naked, and file into the showers, sometimes, 2 or 3 to a stall. We're talking rubbing bodies here people. I imagine that's why so many close friendships are made in the military But, that's the only thing I ever thought of when the whole "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" thing was talked about. It would mean that they would have to have, a male bay, a female bay, a gay bay, a lesbian bay, etc. in order to make everything comfortable for everyone....that's a lot with an already stretched budget. Not to mention the extra time involved policing 4 bays, as opposed to two. They spent a lot of time keeping the sexes seperated. You only have 9 weeks to take some 18 yr. old kid, fresh out of high school, and turn them into a soldier, they don't have time for that crap. I only knew of 2, (one guy, one girl) fellow soldiers who let it out on the "down low" that they were gay. I was friends with the guy, didn't have to shower with him, so no problems. And if I did, it wouldn't bother me, cause he's gay. Luckily I didn't have to shower with the girl, but it would have made me uncomfortable....

It's just a lot of red tape to go through for such a small percantage, I guess it's easier to just turn them away. I think the "alternative" of Don't Ask, Don't Tell is good short fix. After all, I don't really assume that girls I'm showering with are checkin' me out, so, as long as they don't tell me they swing that way.....ignorance is bliss, ya' know? I have to say though...I wouldn't feel comfortable in Basic with a convicted rapist either, or some girl that had a bad habit of beating people to a pulp.

Seven minutes?!? I'm sorry, but if I had seven minutes to shower and dress, I wouldn't be able to find the time to shave, let alone check out my buddies. And besides, that's kind of one of those situations where it's a bit incestuous to get involved... icky.

Just because someone's a lesbian it doesn't mean she's got the hots for you. I promise.

 

[mickeyfan1]

As a CSP (I hope) one thing I do know from personal experience is that people who "choose" to be gay, wheter male or female usually find that at best they are bi sexual and and worst straight.

Who are you Quatro that you KNOW "It is a choice for most, and it's not how nature / god intended the hman species." Unless you are privy to information which has never been proved (there is a god) you are only stating your own belief.

NYBlue, I agree, who would choose to be treating as badly as gays have been in the past? And in many places in this country, to say nothing of the rest of world, that treatment continues.

I firmly believe that science will eventually prove that there is a genitic action that makes all people what they are, straight, gay, bi, orange with pink dots, etc.

Thanks for letting me say my piece.

 

[mickeyfan1]

Just because someone's a lesbian it doesn't mean she's got the hots for you. I promise.

Damn it!

 

[lillielil]

Damn it!

Hey, I'm married. Even if I did have the hots for you I couldn't say so 'cause my wife reads the boards

 

[Princess_Michelle]

Seven minutes?!? I'm sorry, but if I had seven minutes to shower and dress, I wouldn't be able to find the time to shave, let alone check out my buddies. And besides, that's kind of one of those situations where it's a bit incestuous to get involved... icky.

Just because someone's a lesbian it doesn't mean she's got the hots for you. I promise.

Yeah, we usually couldn't shave at all The few times I (or others) did, it was on Sunday, when we could get ready on our own, or we would wait until like 1 am, when we were pretty sure a Drill Sgt. wouldn't be stopping by, and sneak into the showers to shave. We did have to get dressed after, but into PT's, so not that hard, although, our hair still had to be pulled up off the neck, and that was hard for someone like me, cause I had long hair. Also, it wasn't 7 minutes the whole 9 weeks...after a few weeks it went to 10, and I think we actually made it to 15.

For the record, I'm sure that even if there were guys in there with us, they wouldn't have time to "check us out", but it would still be very awkward and uncomfortable. Would you really feel comfortable sharing a shower stall with a man? Not being snarky. I just try to understand both sides in any situation. I know sometimes, it's absolutely impossible to understand another person's point of view, but I try. I don't think all men have the hots for me just b/c they are a man and I'm a woman, but I would still not want to shower with them. I really don't think there is an easy answer to these situations. No matter what you do, it's going to be unfair for someone....

 

[Tine731]

It would mean that they would have to have, a male bay, a female bay, a gay bay, a lesbian bay, etc. in order to make everything comfortable for everyone....that's a lot with an already stretched budget. Not to mention the extra time involved policing 4 bays, as opposed to two.

Would we need only 4 bays? I would be more comfortable if they had a southern bay, yankee bay, hispanic bay, Asian bay.........

 

[mickeyfan1]

Hey, I'm married. Even if I did have the hots for you I couldn't say so 'cause my wife reads the boards

Thanks for making me spit my drink!

One thing for sure, not all gays and straigts and Bis and Trans, etc ore easy to pick out. So on any given day, if you ride public transport, you may be sitting next to the "kind you don't hate, ..............but". You never know if that librarian is a dominatrix in her off hours, or that the college roommates that live next door are gay. I remember one reading a discussion board about members in a certain type of adult club. Someone suggested that each person entering the premise would be issued a coloured wrist band, coded to what they were looking for that evening. And colour coded as to married or single. And then straight or bi, and a different colour for what you were willing to do or have done to you.

Maybe that is the answer, we will all wear a wrist band for life, and get a decoder sheet so if I see someone with a brown bracelet, I can avert my eyes, change my seat, leave the line, or whatever, because I don't want to associate with "that type" of person. Of course people might leave because of my bracelet, too.

Just doesn't make much sense, does it?

 

[lillielil]

Yeah, we usually couldn't shave at all The few times I (or others) did, it was on Sunday, when we could get ready on our own, or we would wait until like 1 am, when we were pretty sure a Drill Sgt. wouldn't be stopping by, and sneak into the showers to shave. We did have to get dressed after, but into PT's, so not that hard, although, our hair still had to be pulled up off the neck, and that was hard for someone like me, cause I had long hair. Also, it wasn't 7 minutes the whole 9 weeks...after a few weeks it went to 10, and I think we actually made it to 15.

For the record, I'm sure that even if there were guys in there with us, they wouldn't have time to "check us out", but it would still be very awkward and uncomfortable. Would you really feel comfortable sharing a shower stall with a man? Not being snarky. I just try to understand both sides in any situation. I know sometimes, it's absolutely impossible to understand another person's point of view, but I try. I don't think all men have the hots for me just b/c they are a man and I'm a woman, but I would still not want to shower with them. I really don't think there is an easy answer to these situations. No matter what you do, it's going to be unfair for someone....

I've shared showers with both men and with lesbians - no problem with either. You've gotta do what you've gotta do, right? When I was in Australia for field camp we'd be out all day with no privacy for peeing (but holding it all day isn't exactly an option... well, unless you choose the total dehydration route), and would get back to camp in the evening and all shower together, and hope to make it out before the hot water ran out. A body's just a body. Everyone's got one, and it really isn't that big a deal. It certainly isn't a valid basis for blatant discrimination.

 

[Princess_Michelle]

Would we need only 4 bays? I would be more comfortable if they had a southern bay, yankee bay, hispanic bay, Asian bay.........

To me, this is something people say when they are trying to start something.

It is perfectly logical that someone would not want to shower or share close sleeping quarters with the opposite sex. To me, if a girl like girls, or a guy likes guys, they should be considered the opposite sex. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with, or bad about men. But the FACT is, they are the opposite sex, and I would not want to shower or sleep with strange random men. Straight men = attracted to women and Lesbians = attracted to women, to me that is equality. Uncomfortable = showering or sleeping with anyone attracted to my sex, in this case women. That is the true meaning of equality, not, well, men aren't allowed into female bays but lesbians are b/c they are a minority and can therefore have whatever they want, regardless of how it makes the majority of people feel. To equate that to differences in race or geographical location is stupid.

I don't have an answer for how to make everything OK for everyone, I was just throwing something out there to someone who asked a question. I am not a racist, or biggot, and I can't stand it when people try to use any difference of opinion, or acknowledgement of a known factor, however unfair, to discredit that person. I'm sorry that people treat you badly, but it is not my fault, but making me look like a biggot and/or throwing all logic/facts out the window just to get what you want, only makes things worse, not better.

 

[Pakey]

There are a few, albeit trivial, reasons why allowing gays into the military could be a problem. I was in Basic Training seven years ago. The first week or two, soldiers are put in "retention" while they get their uniforms, take their first PT tests, learn the ins and outs of military life, etc. We slept in huge bays with 50 or so girls, guys with guys, etc. While I personally didn't give a crap who I slept in the same room with, I do know of many girls that went through Basic with me, who would feel uncomfortable sleeping in the same room with a lesbian, just like they would feel if guys were allowed to sleep in the room.
The only part I would have an issue with, would be the shower situation. The older facilities have giant shower "rooms". A big room, tiled, no stalls...just about 10 spouts and a few drains. I would not feel comfortable showering with anyone who was attracted to the female sex, man or woman. I would constantly feel self conscious about my body. As would most girls. I imagine so would most guys. Once you make it to your company, you are put with a smaller amount of girls, like 30. The bathrooms are newer, at least they have stalls, not that they have doors.....Basically, at night, we would have to toe the line, Drill Sgt. would go over stuff for the day, and next day, etc. We had SEVEN (we got more time as we got farther along in the course) minutes to get showered, ready for bed, and back on the line. She would say go, we would all run for the bathroom, strip, get in line buck naked, and file into the showers, sometimes, 2 or 3 to a stall. We're talking rubbing bodies here people. I imagine that's why so many close friendships are made in the military But, that's the only thing I ever thought of when the whole "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" thing was talked about. It would mean that they would have to have, a male bay, a female bay, a gay bay, a lesbian bay, etc. in order to make everything comfortable for everyone....that's a lot with an already stretched budget. Not to mention the extra time involved policing 4 bays, as opposed to two. They spent a lot of time keeping the sexes seperated. You only have 9 weeks to take some 18 yr. old kid, fresh out of high school, and turn them into a soldier, they don't have time for that crap. I only knew of 2, (one guy, one girl) fellow soldiers who let it out on the "down low" that they were gay. I was friends with the guy, didn't have to shower with him, so no problems. And if I did, it wouldn't bother me, cause he's gay. Luckily I didn't have to shower with the girl, but it would have made me uncomfortable....

It's just a lot of red tape to go through for such a small percantage, I guess it's easier to just turn them away. I think the "alternative" of Don't Ask, Don't Tell is good short fix. After all, I don't really assume that girls I'm showering with are checkin' me out, so, as long as they don't tell me they swing that way.....ignorance is bliss, ya' know? I have to say though...I wouldn't feel comfortable in Basic with a convicted rapist either, or some girl that had a bad habit of beating people to a pulp.

I was in the military too and could have cared less who was showering next to me during basic training. 50 nude people in a shower together had enough angst without giving thought to what anyone else looked like or if anyone was giving thought to what I looked like.

The reason gays are not legally allowed into the military is because the federal government is not willing to acknowledge the gay community for political and economic reasons.

 

[Princess_Michelle]

I've shared showers with both men and with lesbians - no problem with either. You've gotta do what you've gotta do, right? When I was in Australia for field camp we'd be out all day with no privacy for peeing (but holding it all day isn't exactly an option... well, unless you choose the total dehydration route), and would get back to camp in the evening and all shower together, and hope to make it out before the hot water ran out. A body's just a body. Everyone's got one, and it really isn't that big a deal. It certainly isn't a valid basis for blatant discrimination.

I really do understand where you are coming from. Some people (gay or straight) have different ways of thinking about sexuality and the human body. But, a vast majority of people, from all religious and ethnic backgrounds, do not believe in/feel comfortable with being naked in front of the opposite sex. Heck, my MIL doesn't think anyone should be naked in front of anyone that is not a spouse or doctor. I used to have no problems being naked in front of gay men, (and yes, it has happened) but now that I am married, I would never feel comfortable being naked in front of another man, no matter what is sexual orientation, out of respect for DH. The problem is that I have always been a majority rules type of person. Always, ever since I was a kid. I don't think it's fair to put 45 straight girls in an uncomfortable, awkward situation b/c of 2 lesbian girls. Examples: I don't think it's fair for a male academy/school to have to change their policies b/c one female student wants to attend. I don't think it's fair for a Stay at Home Mom's Group to have to include one Dad. As a Christian, I wouldn't join a Hindu or Buddhist or Islamic group and expect them to change their policies to respect my beliefs. As a Stay at Home Mom, I wouldn't demand that a Stay at Home Dad's group include me b/c their group is cooler than my Mom's Group. I could go on and on. I don't think that anyone should feel alone or isolated though. Everyone can start their own group, I guess it would be really cool if the GLBT community could start their own military training group, I dunno, like I said, I don't have an answer. I just think that globally, the world (and it's peoples) has gotten so large, that no one should feel left out and no one should be forced to change to accommodate a few people, there is room for everyone. Unless of course, we're talking about the "I-believe-its-OK-to-beat-up-everyone-I-don't-like-club, I mean there has to be boundaries SOME where....

 

[Princess_Michelle]

I was in the military too and could have cared less who was showering next to me during basic training. 50 nude people in a shower together had enough angst without giving thought to what anyone else looked like or if anyone was giving thought to what I looked like.

The reason gays are not legally allowed into the military is because the federal government is not willing to acknowledge the gay community for political and economic reasons.

Right, but not everyone is like you. A majority of people, especially at 18 & 19 years old, DO care about showering next to people.

I realize the reasons behind the gays not allowed stance, I was merely talking about issues that might arise either way. Not saying the shower situation was the reason, LOL. I don't even know why I'm still talking about it...

 

[mickeyfan1]

Michelle, how do you know that the "majority" is uncomfortable in that situation? If you go to any female oriented function, Jazzercize for example, while everyone is dressed there, how do you know that there aren't 15 Lesbians and you? Do you think they would feel uncomfortable knowing that you are not like them?

The situations you point out are not all the same. A publically funded institution can not discriminate against anyone, thus women can now attend and excell at the military academies and colleges in this country. Comparing these places to religious or "Stay at Home" groups is rather silly, IMO.


While you say there is room for everyone, you then qualify it by saying there is room for everyone as long as they stay with in their own group.

 

[mickeyfan1]

Right, but not everyone is like you. A majority of people, especially at 18 & 19 years old, DO care about showering next to people.

Please, tell us how you know this? Unless you mean that most 18 and 19 year olds want to shower with the opposite sex? Because in my experience, at least when I hung out with 18 and 19 year olds (when I was that age) and then having had a child that age, most of them were gung ho to see the opposite sex naked, and in the shower, that was even more of a bonus!

 

[Nancyg56]

But, as a father, trying to raise a 6 year old daughter, it is difficult to explain when she knows mommy and daddy as partners he entire life, then see's to men kissing in public. Then sees shows on TV with men being gay (will and grace). (yes, we controll her TV, but stuff happens).

My point was, children are bombarded with gay and lesbianism on TV, in the movies, in print. And yes, the rainbow which has been adopted by the community.

Now if you say that gay and lesbians were born with that orientation, I can understand that. But again, most of the worlds population is not orientated that way and having to defend our children from that type of content is hard. If they see enough of it, then there may be a "choice" to go that way. So that is why i dont by the a "we were bron this way".

It is a choice for most, and it's not how nature / god intended the hman species.

I am entitled to my view points just like you are. It's not hate to have believes that dont match yours.

I normally do not come to this board but saw the post on the index and I feel compelled to respond.

I am a Mother, have raised three children to adulthood, have a 6 YO DGD and can assure you that children are bombarded with a lot more than seeing gay men and women on TV. There is violence, abusive and foul language, a lot of innuendo on shows featuring heterosexuals, and it goes on ans on. Your kids are not going to be scarred for life if they come in contact with people of the same gender who are committed to each other. They won't even think much of it unless you point out to them your viewpoint.

My BIL was gay and my children were fine with that. They did not question his sexuality, his partner or his lifestyle. It just was what it was. None of them "caught" it by their interaction with their uncle, they were enriched by it, just as all children are blessed to have family who love them.

My BIL did not choose his orientation. He did not choose to be ostracized by family members, he did not choose to get beaten up by people who thought he was a joke, he did not choose to be different in a time when there was little to no tolerance for Gays. He was born the way he was, the same as you were. Your children will not choose their orientation, but will you accept it if one finds that he or she is attracted to people of their own gender or will you try to "protect" them from themselves?

You are entitled to your opinions but I don't agree with them or understand the fear you have. With all of the worries we have as a country today, this would be the last problem I would have in raising my children. I would put more energy into worrying how to protect them from what the future holds if we continue engaging in wars rather than diplomacy. And if it gets worse I would worry if we don't have gay men and women willing to enlist to help keep people free to have the right to discriminate against them.

 

[kaytieeldr]

My point was, children are bombarded with gay and lesbianism on TV,

Bombarded? Really? Surely not in advertising, and scanning my brain quickly, the only gay character on any current show is Kenneth, who appears once in a great while on "My Name is Earl". Well, okay, there's one talk show host, and up here in liberal Massachusetts we have a news anchor who's gay. But bombarded?

We slept in huge bays with 50 or so girls, guys with guys, etc. While I personally didn't give a crap who I slept in the same room with, I do know of many girls that went through Basic with me, who would feel uncomfortable sleeping in the same room with a lesbian, just like they would feel if guys were allowed to sleep in the room.
The only part I would have an issue with, would be the shower situation. The older facilities have giant shower "rooms". A big room, tiled, no stalls...just about 10 spouts and a few drains. I would not feel comfortable showering with anyone who was attracted to the female sex, man or woman.

But those perspectives are based - erroneously, I feel - on the assumptions that sexual attraction is solely physical, and that every person is automatically attracted to every other person of the gender to which they are oriented and will automatically approach or come on to every such available person.

Would we need only 4 bays? I would be more comfortable if they had a southern bay, yankee bay, hispanic bay, Asian bay.........

Five. No WAY I would shower with a Yankee. Go Red Sox!!!!

To me, this is something people say when they are trying to start something.

It's all in the interpretation. I see it as humor (okay, fine, and as pointing out the ridiculousness of separate bays based on sexual attraction).

I really do understand where you are coming from. Some people (gay or straight) have different ways of thinking about sexuality and the human body. But, a vast majority of people, from all religious and ethnic backgrounds, do not believe in/feel comfortable with being naked in front of the opposite sex.

Those people might best be served by not putting themselves in such situations.

I don't think it's fair for a Stay at Home Mom's Group to have to include one Dad.... As a Stay at Home Mom, I wouldn't demand that a Stay at Home Dad's group include me b/c their group is cooler than my Mom's Group.

Well, reasonably - why not? How many Stay at Home Dads groups - or even just individual Stay at Home Dads in any given community - exist? How sensible is it to discriminate/ban somebody from participation based SOLELY on gender?

 

[Pakey]

Right, but not everyone is like you. A majority of people, especially at 18 & 19 years old, DO care about showering next to people.

I realize the reasons behind the gays not allowed stance, I was merely talking about issues that might arise either way. Not saying the shower situation was the reason, LOL. I don't even know why I'm still talking about it...

Modest military personnel?? An oxymoron if I've ever heard one. You should have never signed enlistment papers then.