Covid And The Rest of Us

[Karin1984]

My daughter's university used local hotels for quarantining students when numbers started climbing after school started in the fall. Might have gone on all semester. Not sure about that.

Definitely makes me be in no hurry to stay in a hotel any time soon.

We haven't used hotels for that. We do have some 'care hotels' helping out with people who cannot recover at home, but those already existed.
There have been some plans to use hotels to create extra beds, but I don't think this plan ever materialized.

Oh, I forget, a friend works at a hotel, they used the hotel rooms as office space. For those who cannot work at home, or just needed a few hours to work quietly, they started rented rooms per hour.

 

[elphaba91]

At least in the States some hotels are being used for isolation or quarantines with some being paid for by the states as in a contract with the hotel for usage for that, some are not. Some are being used for those who work from home but need or want to be away from their exact home, there's also a probably lesser thought of situation where you have a loved one ailing in the hospital and you're staying in a hotel to be closer to them. It's also something that people use in inclement weather times. If you lose power at your home hotels are common to go to (should they also have power). Truckers use them as well if they aren't sleeping in their cabs, people traveling for business also use them, etc.

There are for sure people vacationing in the States (which is like what ronandannette's conversation was about not prohibited in most places but not advisable either by health officials) just that hotels aren't only being used for that.

That may be completely different in the Netherlands though just wanted to touch on how hotels can be used for more than just vacation or staycation even if they are also being used for that.

Oh, don’t worry, I’m well aware of the other uses for hotels

Here in Australia of recent months we’ve obviously used hotels for international quarantine. There was also a “hotels for heroes” program where any health care workers could get a hotel room if they needed to self isolate from their family. We also housed a lot of our homeless in hotels during the pandemic.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Oh, don’t worry, I’m well aware of the other uses for hotels

Here in Australia of recent months we’ve obviously used hotels for international quarantine. There was also a “hotels for heroes” program where any health care workers could get a hotel room if they needed to self isolate from their family. We also housed a lot of our homeless in hotels during the pandemic.

Gotcha, just responding to you asking why people would stay in hotels if everything else is closed

That's very nice to hear about the homeless being given shelter there.

And yes Australia has def. used the hotels for quarantines, I'm not sure how I forgot about that given that's what caused some cases

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I'm all for holding people to compliance with requirements and not at all comfortable with sanctions for things that are actually allowed. If we (collectively) demand to hold politicians to a higher standard and the leadership responds, so be it.

Generally speaking I believe if you're going to implore your fellow citizens to stay home, to avoid non-essential travel you lose credibility when you then do the opposite. You could approach it from a moral standpoint but I feel like at least in the States it means less people are willing to follow whatever directive you ask of them when you yourself cannot abide by it (which is the last thing we need). I'm not sure if this is the same elsewhere though or if it's just a vocal objection but still high compliance.

Dr. Birx recently was in hot water over that. She toured the U.S. (including coming to my area in August) admonishing us all telling us what our areas need to do better, saying we should do a stay at home order if needed, should not be having family gatherings, wear a mask, etc. Which these things weren't new to us at least in my area where she was. Anywho fast forward to Thanksgiving and she's on the news. She traveled to one of her vacation properties. That was bad enough as far as PR optics but oh let's add that she had "three generations of her family from two households. Birx, her husband Paige Reffe, a daughter, son-in-law and two young grandchildren were present." This was after (and I'm quoting from an article) she had "asked Americans not to travel over the holidays and discourages indoor activity involving members of different households. “People who do not currently live in your housing unit, such as college students who are returning home from school for the holidays, should be considered part of different households.”

Now you could argue her family she went with were part of her social circle but she's been very vocal about what we need to do. A lot of citizens I'm sure wanted to be with their children, with their grandchildren and yet did not..for a reason. Now Birx gave the reasoning that she was winterizing her vacation property before it was potentially being sold...yes because Thanksgiving was the time to do that to travel away from home and to bring along the whole family to do so .

That's really just 1 tiny example. There have been governors, mayors, etc who have been on vacation but telling their citizens back home what they need to do.

Did Birx technically violate any standing order? I'm not sure for her state. What I do know is it looks bad.

Funerals and visiting sick ones is where my catch-22 comes into play. On the one hand we've been told funerals (and they have happened) are still not a good idea but there's a compassionate aspect to it. And visiting a sick one is virtually the same.

But what I will say, and I feel like I've mentioned it before, in the U.S. you won't commonly see people voluntarily resigning or even being fired for this. It's not normally the first defense. But that does and has led into partial distrust of the government because they generally aren't held accountable for their actions.

 

[mom2rtk]

We haven't used hotels for that. We do have some 'care hotels' helping out with people who cannot recover at home, but those already existed.
There have been some plans to use hotels to create extra beds, but I don't think this plan ever materialized.

Oh, I forget, a friend works at a hotel, they used the hotel rooms as office space. For those who cannot work at home, or just needed a few hours to work quietly, they started rented rooms per hour.

Well, that's certainly a new take on hourly hotel room rentals!

 

[SirDuff]

Well, that's certainly a new take on hourly hotel room rentals!

There's a hotel here that was a "work from a different home" package. But I think it is a daily rate, not hourly.

 

[disneyholic family]

our hotels have been closed for months.....there was a short period that they were open for internal tourism, but then they were closed again..
some hotels have been used for housing people with corona who are unable to quarantine at home (no way for them to isolate from their family)
and some hotels have been used for quarantining people returning from overseas..
but for regular tourism, they're closed..

we did have two tourist "islands" - not really islands, two areas that you had to take a corona test within 72 hours of arriving there, but those two areas have also been closed..
the areas are Eilat (the southern port city on the red sea) and the Dead Sea hotel area.
We went to Eilat in early December (for hanukah)..
it was fantastic....we had a spectacular time (scuba with dolphins, snorkeling in the coral reef, horse riding in the desert, etc)..
but when the numbers shot up a couple of weeks ago, those two areas were also closed down for tourism..

and like everywhere else, our numbers are skyrocketing again, so starting tomorrow at midnight we're going full blown lockdown..
even the schools will be closed for 2 weeks....
that is, kids will be in full zoom school for 2 weeks.....
it's not so bad since the first through fourth grades have been in real in person school for several months now, so a 2 week stretch of zoom won't be terrible..
also the oldest two grades of high school have been in real in person school for several months - they have matriculation exams to prepare for and it was felt zoom would really set them back..
so 2 weeks of zoom for them isn't that bad..
all the other grades have been in partial real/partial zoom, so not too much of a change for them...

as for small businesses, stores, restaurants, everything associated with tourism (which is as you can imagine a big industry here), i don't know how much more they can take of these lockdowns..
.

 

[White Cat]

It to me was a joke that those in Premier positions may back peddle with well, I guess our advisements were not clear enough regarding travel even though it was not illegal. We in our household follow mandates first, and then advisements too. Also, I understood 1/2 of Canadians got together with family or friends during the holidays.

So many issues our own Premier having at least 6 infractions from Mother's Day gathering, cottage country trips, a large unmasked non social distanced wedding, and so on.. sigh.

He and others are living their lives while being as careful as they can. Life goes on.

 

[ronandannette]

our hotels have been closed for months.....there was a short period that they were open for internal tourism, but then they were closed again..
some hotels have been used for housing people with corona who are unable to quarantine at home (no way for them to isolate from their family)
and some hotels have been used for quarantining people returning from overseas..
but for regular tourism, they're closed..

...as for small businesses, stores, restaurants, everything associated with tourism (which is as you can imagine a big industry here), i don't know how much more they can take of these lockdowns..
.

I'd imagine tourism is a fairly significant part of Israel's economy. It would be interesting to hear what kind of financial supports your government has provided to businesses/employees affected by mandatory shut-downs. Every country has taken a bit of a different approach.

Hopefully the good effects of your aggressive vaccination program will kick in soon. We await further reports and are all hoping the best for you.

...To have a piece of paper with you to prove where you go and where you come from, or proving that you haven't left your home before that day, collecting stamps, is very reminiscent of the 2nd World War. Some people say 'that's already 75 years ago, who remembers', but it is 'only 75 years ago' and we have a collective memory of this. It's the main reason we never had a curfew other countries did have. I think this measure could be handled similar.

Second, can it be maintained? I wonder if we have enough police force / army to take care of keeping everyone in their home. My guess is that they might be able to get 10% of the perpetrators.

The main problem: The problem is at home, within families. And then you need neighbours to spy on each other and call the police on each other. And that is something you do not do, especially not in small villages where everyone knows each other. The new measures will not solve that.

A few weeks ago, we had a secret report come to light that the closing of restaurants probably had a negative effect on bringing the numbers down, as people still did have dinner with each other, but at home with either take out. In a restaurant you have to go at some point. When you are in your own home, with some friends, you can stay as long as you want.

We have discussed previously that the problem with enacting rules/laws is enforcing them. It is a chilling prospect to have so many law enforcement resources used for policing Covid-related infractions, not to mention that here we certainly do have formal Snitch Lines and they are quite active. As I said yesterday, what is the world coming to?

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

it was fantastic....we had a spectacular time (scuba with dolphins, snorkeling in the coral reef, horse riding in the desert, etc)..

This sounds like it was fun especially the dolphins.

I tried to snorkeling on my honeymoon. I couldn't work with breathing through the tube. My husband was able to though. But there I was in between the Piton Mountains (in St. Lucia) and just using the goggles to do a quick peek here and there. Still was a good experience overall.

I've been horseback riding a few times before but never as cool as in the desert.

 

[Karin1984]

I'd imagine tourism is a fairly significant part of Israel's economy. It would be interesting to hear what kind of financial supports your government has provided to businesses/employees affected by mandatory shut-downs. Every country has taken a bit of a different approach.

Hopefully the good effects of your aggressive vaccination program will kick in soon. We await further reports and are all hoping the best for you.

We have discussed previously that the problem with enacting rules/laws is enforcing them. It is a chilling prospect to have so many law enforcement resources used for policing Covid-related infractions, not to mention that here we certainly do have formal Snitch Lines and they are quite active. As I said yesterday, what is the world coming to?

Well, we are not very good at fining people. Many people got off with warnings. Whenever there was a newsarticle about an illegal party, the article usually ended with that it was unknown if people were fined. I think only restaurants or hairdressers and other businesses who tried to operate while they should be closed got huge fines. For them the risks were bigger, so not a lot did so.

 

[Jrb1979]

We have discussed previously that the problem with enacting rules/laws is enforcing them. It is a chilling prospect to have so many law enforcement resources used for policing Covid-related infractions, not to mention that here we certainly do have formal Snitch Lines and they are quite active. As I said yesterday, what is the world coming to?

I do see where you are coming from. It's unfortunate it has come to this. We have had 9 months of warnings so people should know the rules by now. It's crazy that there is still so many that still don't want to follow the rules.

 

[disneyholic family]

I'd imagine tourism is a fairly significant part of Israel's economy. It would be interesting to hear what kind of financial supports your government has provided to businesses/employees affected by mandatory shut-downs. Every country has taken a bit of a different approach.

Hopefully the good effects of your aggressive vaccination program will kick in soon. We await further reports and are all hoping the best for you.

salaried workers receive unemployment compensation....
self-employed workers receive support based on a comparison to their prior years earnings...
i believe it's done quarter by quarter..
so for example, your revenue in the 3rd qtr 2020 is compared to 3rd qtr 2019, and if it falls short, you get some percentage of the shortfall..
i don't know what the percentage is......i think 60% ...so you would get 60% of the shortfall (probably with a cap)..
and businesses get the same sort of support - calculated in the same way...
it's not vast amounts of money, but it provides some support..
of course, if you have to cover various fixed expenses (rent, interest on loans), it will be difficult for sure...
so it all depends on the business...

but then there are those who fall through the cracks - anyone with a new business is out of luck since the support is based on their prior years income...
so i've seen businesses that opened shortly before corona hit that have gone out of business..

the vaccination program starting at the beginning of next week will only be second doses, as we've run out of vaccine for more first doses..
by the end of january something like 80% of the 'vulnerable' population will be vaccinated, but that still leaves everyone else...
we're getting a tiny shipment of moderna next week, but it probably will create more problems than solve..
since it's only enough for 150,000 people and that's how many we've been vaccinating per day, i assume they'll just send the whole shipment to one place and have that place just give out moderna so as not to mix it up with pfizer.
it's not clear when the next shipment of pfizer will arrive. I think i heard only in february some time, which kind of sucks, but not much you can do about it.

actually, now that i think about it, the best use of moderna would be to go around to the house bound people who can't get to the vaccination centers...
maybe they'll do that...
.

 

[Aladora]

Looking at what your restrictions are and knowing what Victoria did, there are more measures you can take (they are definitely not fun, but are effective). Things like totally banning visitors, limiting trips to those essential stores (one person per household a day), restricting the distance you can travel from home and even limiting the time you can spend outdoors.

Totally OT but every time I read your posts when you talk about Victoria, my brain does a little double check since I live in Victoria, BC! I *know* you are talking about Victoria, Australia but I always think "Oh, someone else from my town!"

He and others are living their lives while being as careful as they can. Life goes on.

No, no he isn't. If they were being as careful as they could be then they would not be traveling or gathering with large groups of people.

 

[disneyholic family]

This sounds like it was fun especially the dolphins.

I tried to snorkeling on my honeymoon. I couldn't work with breathing through the tube. My husband was able to though. But there I was in between the Piton Mountains (in St. Lucia) and just using the goggles to do a quick peek here and there. Still was a good experience overall.

I've been horseback riding a few times before but never as cool as in the desert.

the place with dolphins is called dolphin reef....the dolphins are free to come and go as they please...
out into the open sea and back in....
they're not fenced in and they're not trained..
but they are provided food, so they do tend to come in and spend a lot of time..
but no one does any formal interaction with them...
they're just there.....they leave...they come back...
the regular ones and sometimes other dolphins that come into the area..

the dolphins are funny - they're madly in love with one of the scuba guides and one of the snorkel guides..
i forgot to say, you can also snorkel with the dolphins..
anyway, these two guys are super sexy....both of them are very good looking and extremely physically fit...
so it's really funny that these dolphins are in love with them..
whenever either of them gets into the water, the dolphins immediately swim over and don't leave them alone until they leave the water...
they won't give the other guides the time of day, but these two, they never leave their sides...
so if you're lucky enough to have one of them as your scuba or snorkel guide, you will have a lot of dolphin time..
not that you can touch the dolphins,....you can't....no touching..
the dolphins can touch you if they want, but you can't touch them..
they're wild dolphins....not trained...

anyway, it's one of our favorite places...
about 10 years ago, my son did a week long scuba course there..
i went with him, so all day long i either sat on the long pier that goes out into the water....watching the dolphins..
or on the beach,...
it's beautiful there..
you have the sea and the desert and mountains..
behind you are mountains and across the bay is jordan where there's also a mountain range...
it's really beautiful..

as for the coral reef snorkeling....there's a nature reserve - it's called the Eilat Coral Reef Nature Reserve - where you can snorkel in the reef...
it's part of the national parks system..

and where we went riding - there's a therapeutic riding ranch - where physically and developmentally challenged are helped through riding (for free).
they also allow people to ride there for money (it's a way they raise funds for the therapy side of the operation)..
it's a non-profit organization..
anyway, they have incredibly well trained horses, as you can imagine...
so you have a half hour in a corral where they teach you the basics (if you haven't been on a horse before), and then you ride out in the desert for an hour...with two guides of course...
it's on a kibbutz that's located in the middle of the desert....

i probably should have mentioned that i love the desert...
i know lots of people don't (my husband), but i do....

oh i forgot, another thing we did that we love to do - bird watching..
Israel is a major bird migration center....birds flying from europe and russia to africa and in reverse..
half a billion birds fly overhead twice a year...
only mexico gets more migrating birds....
so it's amazing what you can see.....
we love watching the big birds flying in formation.....it's just breathtaking...

.

 

[White Cat]

I do see where you are coming from. It's unfortunate it has come to this. We have had 9 months of warnings so people should know the rules by now. It's crazy that there is still so many that still don't want to follow the rules.

Do you ever exceed the speed limit, creep through a stop sign, change lanes with out signalling, water on off days, let your side walk go unsalted, fudge on your taxes, ever not pay for a bag at the grocery store, ever jay walk? People mostly choose to follow the rules that they want.

 

[disneyholic family]

Generally speaking I believe if you're going to implore your fellow citizens to stay home, to avoid non-essential travel you lose credibility when you then do the opposite. You could approach it from a moral standpoint but I feel like at least in the States it means less people are willing to follow whatever directive you ask of them when you yourself cannot abide by it (which is the last thing we need). I'm not sure if this is the same elsewhere though or if it's just a vocal objection but still high compliance.

Dr. Birx recently was in hot water over that. She toured the U.S. (including coming to my area in August) admonishing us all telling us what our areas need to do better, saying we should do a stay at home order if needed, should not be having family gatherings, wear a mask, etc. Which these things weren't new to us at least in my area where she was. Anywho fast forward to Thanksgiving and she's on the news. She traveled to one of her vacation properties. That was bad enough as far as PR optics but oh let's add that she had "three generations of her family from two households. Birx, her husband Paige Reffe, a daughter, son-in-law and two young grandchildren were present." This was after (and I'm quoting from an article) she had "asked Americans not to travel over the holidays and discourages indoor activity involving members of different households. “People who do not currently live in your housing unit, such as college students who are returning home from school for the holidays, should be considered part of different households.”

Now you could argue her family she went with were part of her social circle but she's been very vocal about what we need to do. A lot of citizens I'm sure wanted to be with their children, with their grandchildren and yet did not..for a reason. Now Birx gave the reasoning that she was winterizing her vacation property before it was potentially being sold...yes because Thanksgiving was the time to do that to travel away from home and to bring along the whole family to do so .

That's really just 1 tiny example. There have been governors, mayors, etc who have been on vacation but telling their citizens back home what they need to do.

Did Birx technically violate any standing order? I'm not sure for her state. What I do know is it looks bad.

Funerals and visiting sick ones is where my catch-22 comes into play. On the one hand we've been told funerals (and they have happened) are still not a good idea but there's a compassionate aspect to it. And visiting a sick one is virtually the same.

But what I will say, and I feel like I've mentioned it before, in the U.S. you won't commonly see people voluntarily resigning or even being fired for this. It's not normally the first defense. But that does and has led into partial distrust of the government because they generally aren't held accountable for their actions.

wow, bad optics is an understatement!!!
.

 

[NFLDERS]

If the borders were closed outbound, that would settle the issue, but they're not. I'm all for holding people to compliance with requirements and not at all comfortable with sanctions for things that are actually allowed. If we (collectively) demand to hold politicians to a higher standard and the leadership responds, so be it.

ETA: You must have been in the process of editing your post while I was quoting it. The comment about lessened risk begs the question whether the the Quebec MNA was safer in Barbados than he is at home in Montreal.

Lessened risk 'overall.'

Of course there are places in good covid standing. As I've said many times I'd love to see my family in Newfoundland/British Columbia, but to do so may/would jeopardize their risk overall.

 

[NFLDERS]

At least in the States some hotels are being used for isolation or quarantines with some being paid for by the states as in a contract with the hotel for usage for that, some are not. Some are being used for those who work from home but need or want to be away from their exact home, there's also a probably lesser thought of situation where you have a loved one ailing in the hospital and you're staying in a hotel to be closer to them. It's also something that people use in inclement weather times. If you lose power at your home hotels are common to go to (should they also have power). Truckers use them as well if they aren't sleeping in their cabs, people traveling for business also use them, etc.

There are for sure people vacationing in the States (which is like what ronandannette's conversation was about not prohibited in most places but not advisable either by health officials) just that hotels aren't only being used for that.

That may be completely different in the Netherlands though just wanted to touch on how hotels can be used for more than just vacation or staycation even if they are also being used for that.

Some of our Ontario migrant workers were unable to get back home in a timely fashion, and are wintering here. I'm hopeful some or all are in Niagara Falls.

 

[NFLDERS]

Totally OT but every time I read your posts when you talk about Victoria, my brain does a little double check since I live in Victoria, BC! I *know* you are talking about Victoria, Australia but I always think "Oh, someone else from my town!"

I too have to remind myself, because one of my brothers is on the Island.
BTW, have you seen my great niece's Christmas wayward/backlog gift?