Could DVC do this?

[mickeymom629]

Why are there so many rules regarding borrowed and banked points?

I was thinking it would be nice if borrowed points could be put back into the original use year if a reservation is cancelled and if banked points could be unbanked if needed.

I don't really understand why we are penalized with 'final transactions' if we "own" those points and are current on our payments. What difference does it make to DVC if we undo our banking/transferring as we make/cancel reservations?

Just recently, I borrowed a lot of points to make a reservation for November. Then, MONTHS later, I decided to save some points and I called to adjust the reservation. I fully expected to have to use my 39 borrowed points before my current use year ended, but the cm who helped me change my reservation offered to put ALL of the borrowed points back in the original year! It was so nice of her!! And it got me thinking that, really, what difference is it to DVC?

I was thinking this would be a nice new 'perk'.

 

[rlovew]

It can make for an unbalance in points if they allow people to do that especially close to the date of the reservation- when you are banking someone else needs to borrow to cancel out your transaction in the same way when you borrow someone else needs to bank to cancel out that transaction. If there is an unbalance in borrowing and banking then there are not enough points in certain use years for people to actual use what they have paid for. By making the transactions permanent DVC can use their own points if needed to balance things out by allowing more Disney reservations in years where there are more points taken out and then their points can be used for reservations in the next year. If they allow people to change their mind on things especially late in their use year then it is harder to use up extra points banked by renting them out (either to DVC members paying for 1 time use points or trying through the regular reservations to recoup the costs.

Personally I am glad that they are willing to do this at all rather than saying we can't do either or making us use some convoluted system where we have to find someone to balance out the points we want to change over ourselves.

There other choice would be to watch things more closely and have unbalanced times mean a sudden stop to either banking or borrowing until the system was balanced again (similar to the way they have had cruises unavailable at times in the past) in which case someone planning on banking/borrowing points but waiting till they needed to in case something came up would just be out of luck.

 

[DebbieB]

I think part of the reason is to stop members from making reservations on a tentative basis and then cancelling them, holding a room that another member may want. By not allowing banked or borrowed points to go back, it forces a member to be more certain about reservations they make.

 

[Dean]

Why are there so many rules regarding borrowed and banked points?

I was thinking it would be nice if borrowed points could be put back into the original use year if a reservation is cancelled and if banked points could be unbanked if needed.

I don't really understand why we are penalized with 'final transactions' if we "own" those points and are current on our payments. What difference does it make to DVC if we undo our banking/transferring as we make/cancel reservations?

Just recently, I borrowed a lot of points to make a reservation for November. Then, MONTHS later, I decided to save some points and I called to adjust the reservation. I fully expected to have to use my 39 borrowed points before my current use year ended, but the cm who helped me change my reservation offered to put ALL of the borrowed points back in the original year! It was so nice of her!! And it got me thinking that, really, what difference is it to DVC?

I was thinking this would be a nice new 'perk'.

The limitations are in part punitive to control booking habits and minimize random booking and canceling. They are also an acknowledgement that banked/borrowed points or even points that could be used that way are a liability to the system as a whole. There have been a number of iterations over the years, the first rules only allowed 50% of points to be moved around, later banking rules were a % based on how far in advance banking was done.

 

[jagson]

Why not just allow points to accumulate ad infinitum? Just do away with banking/borrowing. That way you wouldn't be prodded in to going every other year; some of us might want to save 3-5 years of points, or more, to go for a longer vaca, or go high-end at a 3 BR villa for, say a large family reunion or other reason. We paid for the points, we pay annual MFs, and abolishing the bank/borrow would make for an easier accounting of points. Aside from the obvious reasons for the system, ie DVC profits, what's wrong with that idea?

 

[nkosiek]

I don't think there is any timeshare in the world that lets that happen. Part of business timeshares is having full resorts as well as steady repeat locked-in business. By allowing what you're suggesting, they aren't getting that. Also, say you hold 160 points for 5 years and then decide in year 6 that you want to book 6 studios for a family trip during the summer at BLT...that's 3 more than you could any other year with banking and borrowing which means that another owner can't book those three rooms and now his/her points may not be useable.

 

[disneynutz]

IMO unused points that expire are part of the DVC formula. That makes more DVC rooms available for Disney to rent for cash.

Bill

 

[mickeymom629]

I don't think there is any timeshare in the world that lets that happen. Part of business timeshares is having full resorts as well as steady repeat locked-in business. By allowing what you're suggesting, they aren't getting that. Also, say you hold 160 points for 5 years and then decide in year 6 that you want to book 6 studios for a family trip during the summer at BLT...that's 3 more than you could any other year with banking and borrowing which means that another owner can't book those three rooms and now his/her points may not be useable.

I'm not sure I agree with this at all. Some members have quite a bit of points (and can book 6 studios if they want), while others have a more moderate amount. They all bank/borrow and book. Sometimes first choice, second choice, whatever, is not available, but the likelihood of what you suggest is just as likely with the current system. On the years that a member is saving up, others are using theirs. Members would not be coincidentally saving for the same thing.

IMO unused points that expire are part of the DVC formula. That makes more DVC rooms available for Disney to rent for cash.

Bill

How many points do you think go unused by the average DVC owner? I can't imagine many at all. I don't know how that could be part of the 'formula'.

 

[mickeymom629]

It can make for an unbalance in points if they allow people to do that especially close to the date of the reservation- when you are banking someone else needs to borrow to cancel out your transaction in the same way when you borrow someone else needs to bank to cancel out that transaction. If there is an unbalance in borrowing and banking then there are not enough points in certain use years for people to actual use what they have paid for. By making the transactions permanent DVC can use their own points if needed to balance things out by allowing more Disney reservations in years where there are more points taken out and then their points can be used for reservations in the next year. If they allow people to change their mind on things especially late in their use year then it is harder to use up extra points banked by renting them out (either to DVC members paying for 1 time use points or trying through the regular reservations to recoup the costs.

Personally I am glad that they are willing to do this at all rather than saying we can't do either or making us use some convoluted system where we have to find someone to balance out the points we want to change over ourselves.

There other choice would be to watch things more closely and have unbalanced times mean a sudden stop to either banking or borrowing until the system was balanced again (similar to the way they have had cruises unavailable at times in the past) in which case someone planning on banking/borrowing points but waiting till they needed to in case something came up would just be out of luck.

Sorry, but I couldn't follow this reasoning at all. Members have different use years and different amounts of points in different home resorts, which can be used in any resort depending on when they book. Points can be booked at home resorts and then moved to other resorts. I have no idea how things 'balance' now. There are times when villas are almost fully booked and there are times when there is much availability.

Yes, I am glad there is flexibility in the current way of doing things! But, I don't see why what I'm suggesting couldn't be a 'perk' that DVC could give us down the road.

I don't see why my 2015 points, for example, couldn't be borrowed and banked as I like, from the beginning of my 2014 use year through to the end of my 2016 use year. I'm not saying that I would have them through 2020 or something (though that would be another bonus!), but why can't points go back into the year they were in if I cancel a reservation?

 

[disneynutz]

We have met several members who just don't vacation like they used to, they apparently have money, don't want to rent out their points, and plan to vacation at WDW maybe next year. One couple that we met at WDW didn't know what banking or borrowing was and they have been owners from the beginning and use their points every few years.

It's like people who have a storage room, out of sight, out of mind. Many rent the storage room for years and never take the time to visit or clean it out.

Bill

 

[MAO]

I don't see why my 2015 points, for example, couldn't be borrowed and banked as I like, from the beginning of my 2014 use year through to the end of my 2016 use year. I'm not saying that I would have them through 2020 or something (though that would be another bonus!), but why can't points go back into the year they were in if I cancel a reservation?

When someone brings a batch of cookies to a gathering and says "here, I brought enough for everyone to have two cookies" and you say "I only want one but next time, I get three" and then, after all the cookies have been parceled out (your extra going to someone walking past who said "I'll give you money for that extra cookie") you decide you want that one you said no to - how is that going to happen? When you bank your points, you're telling Disney that you don't want to use them during this Use Year and so Disney has the right to say "hmm, going to have empty rooms because owners aren't using them - better sell them to non-owners". If you could bank and then unbank them as you pleased, there'd be nights with lots of rooms empty and owners paying for Cast Members to sit around with nothing to do because Disney couldn't sell those rooms to anyone - you've basically said 'I want to keep my portion of the resort available to me at all times.'

And as to why there's a limit of 3 years worth of points -- can you imagine what would happen if people know, for example, that in 2025 there was going to be some big celebration? The resort is sold to owners with some ideal percentage, I don't know what, let's say 90% occupancy. In other words, throughout the year, 90% of the resort could be full with the owners of that resort staying there (not necessarily in the rooms or at the times they want, but they could technically stay there that year.) Now try imagining even half of those owners with enough points to stay there 5 or even 10 times longer than they normally would. I'm sure they've run the math predictions allowing for 3 times more points but they'd have to start all over again if there were no limits.

 

[southerngirl528]

Interesting thread. I like MAO's cookie analogy. You must put on your "business" head to look at this situation fairly. Think of supply vs. demand. That's a very real thing, folks. As others have explained, to allow endless "stacking" of points, or borrowing/returning to original use year points movements in a willy-nilly fashion would upset the balance of inventory in a way that I can assure you none of us would like.

To say that some people have lots of points and "can book 6 studios at a time" is true of course. BUT, DVC Dev Co., KNOWS this member has bought a certain percentage (higher than average deeded interest) and the inventory is adjusted accordingly. I've been a member for 22 years, and years ago even worked for MS. I know of very few members that just let their points evaporate. And I think it's both ludicrous and sad that they would know so little about what they have purchased that they would ever allow their points to go unused. Whenever I had a member that was about to lose points as they were past their banking window or had had a very late rez cancellation or whatever, I never, ever wanted to see anyone lose their points. Web sites and agencies to help you "rent" your points were pretty much non-existent then. I would suggest they either try to deposit into (then) II, or donate the stay to a friend, pastor, neighbor, family or charity. Give Kids the World is a fabulous organization right down the road from WDW, and I've had more than one generous member donate their rez to them.

As a long time member, I have always felt it is more than fair that we can get as many as 3 years points together. I know of no other TS that will allow any more than this. As explained, it would cause an inordinate imbalance in inventory. If you think it's hard to get a rez NOW, try to imagine what it would be like if they loosened the reins on the current structure. It's more than a little unrealistic to think that members with a very low points ownership could stack endlessly and sway the inventory for those of us that have invested enough to actually be able to book what we want/need within the structure of the membership.

Not trying to be tacky but just telling it like it is, fellow members. DVC has proved to be a huge blessing for my family. I am one of those that will book a GV for a week every year because my family is now all grown and a couple now are starting their own families. Because I own at OKW, this is easy for me to do, and I have a very nice chunk of points leftover to do something else with. Like return to Aulani!!!! YAY!!!!

 

[mickeymom629]

When someone brings a batch of cookies to a gathering and says "here, I brought enough for everyone to have two cookies" and you say "I only want one but next time, I get three" and then, after all the cookies have been parceled out (your extra going to someone walking past who said "I'll give you money for that extra cookie") you decide you want that one you said no to - how is that going to happen? When you bank your points, you're telling Disney that you don't want to use them during this Use Year and so Disney has the right to say "hmm, going to have empty rooms because owners aren't using them - better sell them to non-owners". If you could bank and then unbank them as you pleased, there'd be nights with lots of rooms empty and owners paying for Cast Members to sit around with nothing to do because Disney couldn't sell those rooms to anyone - you've basically said 'I want to keep my portion of the resort available to me at all times.'

And as to why there's a limit of 3 years worth of points -- can you imagine what would happen if people know, for example, that in 2025 there was going to be some big celebration? The resort is sold to owners with some ideal percentage, I don't know what, let's say 90% occupancy. In other words, throughout the year, 90% of the resort could be full with the owners of that resort staying there (not necessarily in the rooms or at the times they want, but they could technically stay there that year.) Now try imagining even half of those owners with enough points to stay there 5 or even 10 times longer than they normally would. I'm sure they've run the math predictions allowing for 3 times more points but they'd have to start all over again if there were no limits.

When I bank points, I'm not saying I don't want to use them, I'm saying I want them later. They are not "extra" - they are mine to use later. (no one should sell my "extra cookie" because I said I will have it later). Some people may be borrowing their points - not taking someone else's. I may bank 2015 points, change my mind about reserving a trip and need to borrow 2016 points to make it. So, I just switched the use year points I'm booking with, but I am still using all of my points eventually.

If there's availability, someone can use their points to make a reservation. If there's no availability when they want to go, they can't use their points unless then look for another time that is available.

Sorry, maybe I'm missing something but I don't agree. Maybe there would be a problem if people could save their points for any amount of years (I was suggesting the 3 years limit, but being able to unbank or unborrow during those 3 years), but it would be member's problem as they wouldn't be able to book, not DVC's if they only have a certain amount of rooms they want to put as available.

 

[JimMIA]

Why not just allow points to accumulate ad infinitum?

Because they don't have lodging inventory ad infinitum. Points represent room-nights in their lodging and they have to keep a balance between available points and available lodging.

All timeshares have a fixed amount of inventory, and by law, they can't sell more than they have. They allow some adjustments to total annual use of the points/weeks to make their system more flexible and attractive to prospective buyers, but they still have to keep a workable balance.

As it is DVC has a balance problem because people can use points from a huge resort like SSR to reserve a villa at a small resort like BCV. They can allow that, and banking, and borrowing, within reasonable limits. But DVC has decided that one-year banking and one-year borrowing are the best for their particular system.

Most systems have some sort of banking/borrowing, but all of them I've looked at have reasonable limitations.

 

[MAO]

When I bank points, I'm not saying I don't want to use them, I'm saying I want them later. They are not "extra" - they are mine to use later.

I'm not sure what the issue is either. Yes, when you bank, you are saying "later" - *after* some cutoff date (use year.) OP is asking why s/he can't say 'later', then say 'no, now', then perhaps say 'oh, no, later' then, possibly yet again, 'oh, no, now I want them.' And certainly, the way it currently is set up, if you bank 2014 and then (during 2014) decide you want to use some points there's absolutely no reason you can't borrow from 2015. Which is why I'm not sure what the real problem is that OP is having, to be honest. Except, of course, for the fact that 2014 points banked into 2015 cannot then be further banked into 2016. At which point you get into the whole 'I want to save up 10 years worth of points to spend all at once', along with the thousands of other people who also saved for 10 years and who think they should be able to get into the resort at that time as well. To me, the limits on banking/borrowing are there to protect you from the other owners - to give you a 'fighting chance' to get the resort, room, and dates you want.

 

[mickeymom629]

I'm not sure what the issue is either. Yes, when you bank, you are saying "later" - *after* some cutoff date (use year.) OP is asking why s/he can't say 'later', then say 'no, now', then perhaps say 'oh, no, later' then, possibly yet again, 'oh, no, now I want them.' And certainly, the way it currently is set up, if you bank 2014 and then (during 2014) decide you want to use some points there's absolutely no reason you can't borrow from 2015. Which is why I'm not sure what the real problem is that OP is having, to be honest. Except, of course, for the fact that 2014 points banked into 2015 cannot then be further banked into 2016. At which point you get into the whole 'I want to save up 10 years worth of points to spend all at once', along with the thousands of other people who also saved for 10 years and who think they should be able to get into the resort at that time as well. To me, the limits on banking/borrowing are there to protect you from the other owners - to give you a 'fighting chance' to get the resort, room, and dates you want.

I am the OP, and the one who also said the banking 2014 and then borrowing 2015.

I wasn't the one who said to allow the points to accumulate ad infinitum, though. I'm just saying, that for the 3 years that points are able to be used, why can't they be used at will.

 

[JimMIA]

I'm just saying, that for the 3 years that points are able to be used, why can't they be used at will.

That's actually the way Wyndham does it. They call the process "credit pooling," and it's basically a combination of banking and borrowing. The differences are: 1) Unless you bought a ton of points directly from Wyndham, you have to credit pool prior to the beginning of your Use Year, 2) the points are valid for three full years after the date you pool them, and 3) the points cannot be used for Advanced Reservation Priority at your home resort...so you can only book 10 months out instead of 13.

But Wyndham's system is very different from DVC. Wyndham is MUCH larger -- about 105 resorts in almost 60 locations in just the core system, vs 12 DVC resorts, with almost all of those in one place. That size and diversity of locations allows Wyndham to balance credit pooling in a way DVC cannot.

 

[mickeymom629]

That's actually the way Wyndham does it. They call the process "credit pooling," and it's basically a combination of banking and borrowing. The differences are: 1) Unless you bought a ton of points directly from Wyndham, you have to credit pool prior to the beginning of your Use Year, 2) the points are valid for three full years after the date you pool them, and 3) the points cannot be used for Advanced Reservation Priority at your home resort...so you can only book 10 months out instead of 13.

Interesting about the restriction on home resort priority. I can understand that. I think I like DVC's way of using 3 year's worth just fine (because I'm used to it, I guess)

Anyway, I am very happy with DVC and it's flexibility. But, when Member Services put my points back into my use year (after borrowing), it made me wonder why I couldn't do this myself; I wondered why these are "final transactions".

eta...and, I plan on borrowing them back because I already had it in my mind that I had to use them in my current use year and I couldn't wait to plan another vacation

 

[Dean]

Timeshares are always trying to balance what works for the system against the expectations of the members and potenial buyers. This is very true with banking and borrowing. It's the same reason companies don't generally allow infinite accumulation of vacation time. Most also charge a fee and/or restrict those banked points which have far more effect on the system than borrowed points.

 

[bumbershoot]

When I bank points, I'm not saying I don't want to use them, I'm saying I want them later. They are not "extra" - they are mine to use later. (no one should sell my "extra cookie" because I said I will have it later).

But the cookie analogy isn't just ONE batch of cookies. It's the person who will continue to bring cookies. They made enough for 2 per person EACH time. If you say you want one this time and 3 the next, it's not the same cookies. You have given up 1 this time, so that cookie can go to another person. Next time you get 3 and the baker plans for that.

If you could say 1, no 2 THIS time, then the baker doesn't get to give that cookie to anyone, because you might say 2. Bringing it back to the hotel rooms, then the resort has to keep that potential room empty for you, just in case, and DVC doesn't like to leave rooms empty.