Coral Reef Now one TS?

[majortom]

That way I was really only spending money on souvenirs...

This is why this is a win for Disney and a loss for everyone else. Guest feel that they are not spending money on food. These costs are hidden by showing up as a lump sum on one's room bill.

This is a common trick for governments to make taxation palatable. If every month every citizen was required to write a check for his or her income tax, and every time one made a purchase, one had to run a separate charge for sales/VAT people would be much more concerned over where their money was going.

I guarantee you that Disney has created these plans because it is more profitable for them, not because it is a better value for their guests. Again, given that they have not increased the number of table service restaurants and that almost all were full almost every night before these plans, there are only two ways that these can be more profitable for them: they have decreased costs relative to prices, or they have discovered that most guests leave a great deal of money on the table (either by not using credits they had or by ordering less than food than they were entitled to order).

/carmi

 

[formernyer]

This would be impossible given that Disney's Dining Plan has greatly increased table service customers without increasing table service seats at all. What I am trying to point out is that it is not just non-plan guests that have to book six months out, it is plan guests as well. If one wants to make sure that one can use all one's credits, one needs to book very early or risk being limited to places that one would not have chosen.

What makes this so disappointing is that is completely locks everything in and allows no flexibility. What if one discovers that there is a Shuttle Lunch while one is in Orlando (rescheduled from two weeks earlier due to weather) and one's 16 year old desperately wants to see that? Thanks to Disney's Dining Plan, one made reservations for a table service dinners over 6 months ago (180 + 10 means most will be more than 6 months out ), and that night was one's two credit meal. Now one has a choice, skip the launch or skip one's two credit meal with very little likelihood of being able to schedule two new table service meals to replace it.

Pre-dining plan, this would not have been a problem. First, not only were Disney's on property restaurants less crowded, but one could easily have eaten at one of the many non-Disney restaurants near KSC or at any of Lake Buena Vista's other choices.



Glad to hear that. As someone who has visited Walt Disney World 5-10 weeks a year for over 20 years, I have definitely seen service and quality decline at most Disney restaurants over the last few years. More and more restaurants have moved from ordering off a menu to mediocre all-one-can-eat limited selection meals. As is clearly demonstrated by what happened with the Coral Reef's menu, restaurant have also curtailed higher end offering thanks to these plans. Clearly not potential, actual problems.



Actually, I do not think that most of these people would have been eating at McDonalds. Since Disney's Dining Plan is only available to resort guests, they would have been eating at other Disney restaurants (counter service) or close non-Disney restaurants (e.g. Rainforest Cafe at Animal Kingdom, all non-plan restaurants at Downtown Disney, all restaurants at Crossroads) for those without cars or other Lake Buena Vista Restaurants for those with them.

What this has done is just the opposite of what you said, it has closed Disney's table service dining to all but resort guest and those that can plan every detail of their trip six months out. Before, resort guests would have been able to choose from all available options, now those on these plans must choose from a much more limited selection. To be clear, most every table service restaurant at Disney World filled up every night, and since Disney has not increased how many table seating restaurants there are, these plans have not increased the number of people eating at them.

All they have done is limited flexibility.



First, you are talking about the extreme case. I am talking about the average case. I am not suggesting that every restaurant has started serving rat and road kill, just that their is not longer a reason from them to exceed basic acceptable quality. Second, even in your extreme case things are worse thanks to these plans. While you are technically correct, one can walk out without paying just as easily with a Dining Plan card, most people never do that with cash and are even less likely to do it when they feel as it is already paid covered. Disney has created these plans to make guests feel that dining is free or included. If one has to had a server cash or a credit card for a abysmal meal, one is more likely to balk than if one is giving that same server something that has already been allocated (like a plan credit).



There is a phrase that social scientists use that seems appropriate here: "the soft bigotry of low expectations." First, most people on here are at a minimum Disney fans and more commonly Disney Fanatics. From my own experience, straying from the prevailing orthodoxy that Disney is amazing tends to receive serious negative responses, often including ad hominem attacks on the poster. This means that one os much more likely to see positive reviews here than negative ones.

Second, as I stated earlier, I am not arguing that California Grill is not serving roadkill, just that its standards (and more generally those around Disney World) have deteriorated, thanks in a large part to a greatly reduced pain threshold that these plans create. Disney has a perverse incentive to raise prices while lowering quality as their restaurant's percentage of dining plan guests increases. It makes people happy to see how much they "saved" never mind that there is no way that most of them would ever have spent that much were they actually paying out of pocket.

This is quite similar to our health care market. Hospitals have an incentive to raise list prices given that they will be reimbursed only a percentage of those by insurance companies and that their end users rarely pay at all for their services. This causes a substantial hardship on those without insurance as well as for those with insurance thanks to raising costs overall.

In the same way, these plans hurt those not using them (the majority of Disney's guests as most people stay off-property), as well as those using them (in all the ways I have already listed).

/carmi

I respectfully disagree with just about everything you've said, but I'm not going to take the time to pick apart every line of your diatribe.

You're missing one HUGE issue here. This forum has many veteran posters who, like you, travel to WDW many times each year. That takes a lot of money. Your posts clearly demonstrate that you enjoy fine dining, etc. This forum has a disproportionate number of members who are like you to what would be seen if you sampled the demographics of an average family visiting WDW. You'll find tons of posts here from people staying in concierge rooms, dining at V&As, etc. In the real world, most people can't afford to travel to Disney every year, or even every few years. When they finally save enough to get there, they don't have money in the budget to dine at signature restaurants, etc. I'm not trying to criticize your high standards because you have every right to be picky if you have the money to live that lifestyle. All I'm saying is that your views mirror the views of a very elite group of people and MOST people visiting WDW on the DDP look at the dining experience very differently. Most people are thrilled and excited at the possibilities of dining in expensive (to us) on-site restaurants. We're not disappointed that the menus have been changed to eliminate some of the more expensive meals (as far as I'm concerned anyplace is good as long as it has a decent steak on the menu). We're excited that now we can experience the magic of Disney dining and not just the rides/shows. We're excited to be able to order appetizers, desserts, and snacks off the carts which we'd normally deprive our kids of. To most of us, we're more than happy to make ADRs months in advance just so we can have this experience.

Like I said in a previous post, I think the restaurants should be required to set some seats aside for walk-ins. It's only fair. However, I think every other aspect of the DDP is incredible and I have no complaints at all.

I'm also predicting that new restaurants will be added to the parks and resorts to accommodate the increase in TS reservations, but obviously that will take time.

 

[freediverdude]

Except that now, those fancy appetizers and desserts off the carts that you would normally deprive your kids of, are less fancy and desirable choices because of the dining plan. And soon it won't seem so special anymore because of the fact that a lot of families get to do it on the included dining plan. You can't really have it both ways- either it's fancy and you pay the price for that as a treat on vacation, or it's scaled down menus and included in resort packages. Now I can't routinely afford these meals either, but once in a while I do splurge on a table service meal there as a passholder and florida resident who doesn't use the dining plan. And I would much rather have a filet mignon and other really nice choices when I'm really splurging as something special, then have the menu be more basic choices because they are trying to do a "free" dining plan with packages.

 

[formernyer]

Except that now, those fancy appetizers and desserts off the carts that you would normally deprive your kids of, are less fancy and desirable choices because of the dining plan. And soon it won't seem so special anymore because of the fact that a lot of families get to do it on the included dining plan. You can't really have it both ways- either it's fancy and you pay the price for that as a treat on vacation, or it's scaled down menus and included in resort packages. Now I can't routinely afford these meals either, but once in a while I do splurge on a table service meal there as a passholder and florida resident who doesn't use the dining plan. And I would much rather have a filet mignon and other really nice choices when I'm really splurging as something special, then have the menu be more basic choices because they are trying to do a "free" dining plan with packages.

I have to disagree with you too.

I found the "less fancy," "less desirable," "scaled-down" choices to be fancier than any restaurants I've ever dined at in my life. It all comes down to what you're accustomed to. I never dine at restaurants where my desserts look like a works or art, but that's what the "scaled-down" desserts at the Disney DDP restaurants were. Heck, I normally don't even order desserts or appetizers at restaurants because they're too expensive. This was a huge treat for me. My kids were THRILLED with the "less desirable" snacks on the carts...given the choice between a Mickey Bar or something "fancy" they're going to choose the Mickey Bar. Normally I won't buy it for them because $2.50 is a ripoff for an ice-cream, but the DDP gave me the ability to let them have some special treats. I found the service at the Disney restaurants to be TOP-NOTCH! I see no slacking on the part of the servers just because their tip is included. I'm sure it's because many people leave EXTRA tip (over and above the 18%) for good service. The servers still have an incentive to do a good job.

I represent the typical Disney guest. My family isn't a lower-income one that needs to save for 5 years to get there, but I certainly couldn't afford 4 trips a year either. I think that most of the non-elite Disney guests would agree with me that the DDP is a great deal for both Disney and the Disney guests. Of course it doesn't work for every family (I won't pay for it again after this year because I'll have two "adult" kids (10 and 11) and the value would be less); however, even when the DDP will no longer work for my family I'll still think it's a great value.

 

[magicmouse2]

I don't feel any of the restaurants are worth doing for lunch instead of for dinner, with the Dining Plan.

ITA Bicker.

I am looking forward to a meal here in September. Its the surroundings and the chocolate wave cake that appeals to me.

 

[jarrdisney]

I respectfully disagree with just about everything you've said, but I'm not going to take the time to pick apart every line of your diatribe.

You're missing one HUGE issue here. This forum has many veteran posters who, like you, travel to WDW many times each year. That takes a lot of money. Your posts clearly demonstrate that you enjoy fine dining, etc. This forum has a disproportionate number of members who are like you to what would be seen if you sampled the demographics of an average family visiting WDW. You'll find tons of posts here from people staying in concierge rooms, dining at V&As, etc. In the real world, most people can't afford to travel to Disney every year, or even every few years. When they finally save enough to get there, they don't have money in the budget to dine at signature restaurants, etc. I'm not trying to criticize your high standards because you have every right to be picky if you have the money to live that lifestyle. All I'm saying is that your views mirror the views of a very elite group of people and MOST people visiting WDW on the DDP look at the dining experience very differently. Most people are thrilled and excited at the possibilities of dining in expensive (to us) on-site restaurants. We're not disappointed that the menus have been changed to eliminate some of the more expensive meals (as far as I'm concerned anyplace is good as long as it has a decent steak on the menu). We're excited that now we can experience the magic of Disney dining and not just the rides/shows. We're excited to be able to order appetizers, desserts, and snacks off the carts which we'd normally deprive our kids of. To most of us, we're more than happy to make ADRs months in advance just so we can have this experience.

Like I said in a previous post, I think the restaurants should be required to set some seats aside for walk-ins. It's only fair. However, I think every other aspect of the DDP is incredible and I have no complaints at all.

I'm also predicting that new restaurants will be added to the parks and resorts to accommodate the increase in TS reservations, but obviously that will take time.

I enjoy fine dining when I am on vacation and expect quality food and service. I also save up for every vacation I take to disney and consider food options just as important as what attraction I ride next. It's all part of the "experience." You assume that everyone that enjoys fine dining has money. It is not the case. There are quite a few people that like to eat well and not bloat themselves with food they feel they have to eat. My mother, who loves the dining plan soley because of it's ease, believes wholeheartedly the the service and food suffer because of it. Take a ride off disney property and try some restaurants such as Tchoup Tchoup and Emerils. You will be pleasantly suprised by the prices, service, and food. IMO, if disney does not step up it's service and quality, you will find more and more people traveling off site for meals, regardless of the dining plan. A great meal is not reserved for those born with silver spoons in their mouths. Now, it seems those with or without that silver spoon can't enjoy a great meal at disney.

 

[jj1403]

Wow. I find this all rather amusing. I just wanted to know if the menu had changed!! Not start on argument on the merits of the dinning plan.

I really find it hard to believe (quote all the social scientists you want) that the dinning plan is some sort of secret plot to offering crappy food and crappy service. There are over 100 restaurants to choose from! (And there are also some that aren't on the list) As no one is being forced to eat on Disney Property and if someone is concerned about the level and quality of food. Eat else where!!

I like the idea of a dinning plan. I like paying for my meals in advance. I like trying to set up a schedule so if I want to eat at the "hard to get in" Cinderellas castle I won't be disappointed.

I truly feel we could go back and forth on this forever. I'm sorry I asked if the menu had changed at Coral reef!!!! I apologise to everyone for bringing this up!!

 

[jj1403]

ITA Bicker.

I am looking forward to a meal here in September. Its the surroundings and the chocolate wave cake that appeals to me.

I still have sweet dreams about the chocolate wave!!

 

[Ava]

Glad to hear that. As someone who has visited Walt Disney World 5-10 weeks a year for over 20 years, I have definitely seen service and quality decline at most Disney restaurants over the last few years. More and more restaurants have moved from ordering off a menu to mediocre all-one-can-eat limited selection meals. As is clearly demonstrated by what happened with the Coral Reef's menu, restaurant have also curtailed higher end offering thanks to these plans. Clearly not potential, actual problems.

I've definitely noticed this trend as well - restaurants converting from ordering off a menu to fixed-price, all-you-care-to-eat (usually character) meals. One of my favorite dining experiences on my last few trips was having dinner at the Castle. However, I won't be doing that again unless it goes back to being a non-character meal. I don't have children, and my partner and I do not want to spend $40 per person for a character meal with limited offerings. I'm sure the addition of character meals at many restaurants is due to their popularity and the fact that people are willing to pay more for that experience, but it's disappointing to those of us who aren't interested in that when a restaurant (especially a "magical" experience like the Castle) has character meals for all three meals a day.

 

[majortom]

...that the dinning plan is some sort of secret plot to offering crappy food and crappy service.

No one has said that it was a secret plot. It is just a way for Disney to increase their profit. They are a profit-making company and their goal is to increase their profit. What has been said Disney's Dining Plan has as a consequence a decrease in the overall experience for everyone. You presented one example where it is easily quantifiable (Coral Reef's menu). There are others that are harder to see.

Disney is not a charity. They do not do things unless they make them more money. As has already been noted before Disney's table service restaurants were full before these plans were offered, and have not had an increase in the number of seats available. This necessarily means that either they are losing money on these plans or that they have figured out another way to make them profitable (if they have not increased supply, they were already at 100% capacity, and they seem to have decreased the stated price per person these are the only two options).

It is unlikely that Disney has suddenly decided that they should become less profitable when there was no reason for them to be (if their restaurants had been empty, that might have made sense, but they were not). Just as Disney has not lowered the price of tickets, they have not lowered their profitability on food.

This means that either they have decreased their costs relative to their prices, they realize that most people do not spend the full value of their credits (leaving some unused) or finally, some combination there of.

The only other option is that they are losing money by doing this.

/carmi

 

[formernyer]

Disney's Dining Plan has as a consequence a decrease in the overall experience for everyone.

Obviously this is a false statement because people who disagree with you in this thread comprise part of the "everyone" you are referring to.

The overall experience has IMPROVED for most people. A very small percentage of Disney guests were able to dine at a TS restaurant every day prior to this plan. Now many of those guests can afford to IMPROVE their experience and actually enjoy some fine dining meals and character meals. And YES, many of us consider the restaurants you are complaining about (e.g., Coral Reef, Le Cellier, etc.) to be FINE DINING.

I can understand that FOR YOU the addition of the DDP has had an adverse impact on your dining experience; however, you are absolutely in the minority. The general population would much prefer to get a great meal at a great value, rather than a "fine experience" and a huge bill for it.

Yes, Disney is profiting from the DDP, but just about everyone who has purchased the plan has found it to be wonderful.

Need some proof? Just check out the results of this poll of other DISboard readers...

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1087174

 

[jj1403]

To my knowledge dinner is the only meal that isn't a character meal. I believe the fairy godmother make special annoucements at the start but that it. Cinderella can be found in the lobby for pictures but she does not go into the restaurant.

There are buffet style restaurants but other such as 50's prime time, coral reef etc are not buffet style and you are able to make the menu choice you wish.

 

[jj1403]

Because I'm a gluten for punisment And because I'm bored.... I shall again reply....

I don't think Disney is offering the Dinning Plan as some sort of charity to us "poor folk' (please don't quote me I know nobody said that!). I don't think anyone is under that false assumption. They are offering dinning to fill up there restaurants and make money. Disney is a money making machine. Of course they want to make money by filling up their restaurants.
I don't see a problem with this because I feel like I am benefiting also. (And please don't tell me I'm wrong to feel like this...my opinions.) If you are worried about eating at certain restaurants.....lets say for example.... Coral Reef. The reviews about the restaurant are positive (but let us all remember not eveyone is going to like the same things!) it's the cost that usually scares people away. In comes the dinning plan...but only if you want it!! What a wonderful way to enjoy a restaurant! Beautiful atmospher and food that I can enjoy and afford without breaking my vacation budget!!
And you can have your filet mignon and eat it too! (I had it last year...fabulous!)

So, I guess bring it on... dissect my comments... I'm still pretty bored at work!!!

 

[majortom]

Obviously this is a false statement because people who disagree with you in this thread comprise part of the "everyone" you are referring to.

Actually, you are wrong.

From WordNet 2.0:

Overall: adj

1. involving only main features; "the overall pattern of his life"
2. including everything; "the overall cost"; "the total amount owed" [syn: total]

My statement was not neither that every individual's experience was worse, nor that your perceived experience was worse, but that the experience for all concerned is worse now than it was before (i.e. the overall experience).

The overall experience has IMPROVED for most people. A very small percentage of Disney guests were able to dine at a TS restaurant every day prior to this plan. Now many of those guests can afford to IMPROVE their experience and actually enjoy some fine dining meals and character meals. And YES, many of us consider the restaurants you are complaining about (e.g., Coral Reef, Le Cellier, etc.) to be FINE DINING.

Given that Disney has not added any seats, your statement is clearly wrong. The exact same percentage of Disney guests are able to dine at table service restaurants as were able to dine there before. What has changed is the quality of those restaurants, and who is able to eat at them. In fact, what has happened is that, thanks to these plans, those who can afford to stay at Disney hotels (almost never the cheapest option) now make up a much larger percentage of those dining at these restaurants than they did before.

This is a zero sum game. They have not added restaurants, so if you are now eating at a table service restaurant every night of your trip whereas pre-dining plan, you would only have been able to eat there one or two nights, what you saying is that you have displaced some other guest that would have been able to eat there before. Pre-dining plan based on your example, a family of three would have taken 6 table service seats (3 people 2 meals). Now that family will consume 15 (over a 5 day trip). This means that there are 9 fewer seats available for other guests (especially those not staying at Disney hotels). The reality is that you have not displaced those whom you call the elite as they can still afford to eat there, but other average families (especially those that cannot afford to stay at Disney hotels).

What is most disappointing is that this has lowered the quality for everyone (even you). The Coral Reef's menu changes are just one easily visible example.

I can understand that FOR YOU the addition of the DDP has had an adverse impact on your dining experience; however, you are absolutely in the minority. The general population would much prefer to get a great meal at a great value, rather than a "fine experience" and a huge bill for it.

Actually, it has had very little effect on my dining experience, it has just meant that I no longer eat at table service restaurants at Disney, but instead eat at other restaurants that have better food and service outside the parks.

Yes, Disney is profiting from the DDP, but just about everyone who has purchased the plan has found it to be wonderful.

Again since you also are sure it is more profitable for them, that money has to come from somewhere. Again, this means that either they are lowering quality, that most people are leaving money on the table (leaving credits unused or using them for much less than their value) or a combination of the two. There is no other option.

Finally, I have never said that you do not like Disney's Dining Plan. That is clear from how strongly you defend it. What I have said (as have others on here) is that it results in a lowering of quality.

You remind me of those people that buy counterfeit Gucci bags on the lower east side. They want the appearance of quality rather than actual quality. You want to feel you are eating in a good restaurant every night, rather than actually eating great food on just a few nights.

Thanks to the conversion of so many restaurants into all-one-can-eat places, there are now many counter service restaurants that have superior food to many of Disney's table service restaurants (Wolfgang Puck Express and Earl of Sandwich are better than Hoop De Doo Reveue as an example).

/carmi

 

[formernyer]

You remind me of those people that buy counterfeit Gucci bags on the lower east side. They want the appearance of quality rather than actual quality. You want to feel you are eating in a good restaurant every night, rather than actually eating great food on just a few nights.

What an asinine statement!

I don't care about appearances at all. All I want is a good meal and my opinion is that the Disney restaurants provide just that. Perhaps you don't find them to be as good as they were in the past, but I think they're just fine now and they're certainly a much better value for the money with the DDP.

You're the restaurant snob here, not me. I don't give a darn about appearances. I just like good tasting food that's also a good value.

I can't help but notice that argue just about every point I've made other than the link to the poll on DDP satisfaction. I guess you just can't argue with the numbers? Clearly you are in the minority on this issue.

 

[jj1403]

I knew you'd reply! Thanks for not dissapointing me!!

What has changed is the quality of those restaurants, and who is able to eat at them.

Meow!! I personnally love that us Riff RAff, undesirables, poor folk, the Clampets....etc. Are able to enjoy " fine dinning"

You remind me of those people that buy counterfeit Gucci bags on the lower east side. They want the appearance of quality rather than actual quality. You want to feel you are eating in a good restaurant every night, rather than actually eating great food on just a few nights.

meow, meow!! I can' even respond I'm laughing too loudly at the audacity of that statement.

Thanks to the conversion of so many restaurants into all-one-can-eat places, there are now many counter service restaurants that have superior food to many of Disney's table service restaurants (Wolfgang Puck Express and Earl of Sandwich are better than Hoop De Doo Reveue as an example)..

There are 11 restaurant that are all you can eat...just so are informed correctly. Please let me know if you'd like me to list them for you...

I'm sorry you feel like they've let the riff raf in... And that some of us are stupid enough to believe that we are participating in "fine dinning" when in fact as you say we are not (by, the by I loooove it ). I shower you with pixie dust!!

 

[majortom]

They are offering dinning to fill up there restaurants and make money.

They were already filling their restaurants and have not added any more, so their only reason for doing this is that they have calculated that it makes them more money.

Again simple economics there are only two ways they can make a greater profit by what seems to be lowering prices without increasing supply:

Either they cut their cost to price margin (in this case they can only to that by cutting quality) or they they are not actually lowering prices (meaning that most people are paying more in reality than they would have under these plans.

This is simple economics.

I don't see a problem with this because I feel like I am benefiting also. (And please don't tell me I'm wrong to feel like this...my opinions.)

Clearly I cannot tell you that you are wrong to feel that you are benefiting, I can just tell you that reality and your feelings are not the same things.

If you are worried about eating at certain restaurants.....lets say for example.... Coral Reef. The reviews about the restaurant are positive (but let us all remember not eveyone is going to like the same things!)

it's the cost that usually scares people away. In comes the dinning plan...but only if you want it!! What a wonderful way to enjoy a restaurant! Beautiful atmospher and food that I can enjoy and afford without breaking my vacation budget!!

The Coral Reef was almost always full before. It is still almost always full. What this means is that either you are not eating at a restaurant of the same quality when it was priced too high for you, or that you are paying too much for some other part of your meal service. Other wise, Disney is losing money on these plans and we all agree that is not true.

/carmi

 

[majortom]

Meow!! I personnally love that us Riff RAff, undesirables, poor folk, the Clampets....etc. Are able to enjoy " fine dinning"

Actually, what has happened is the opposite. As I noted in the portion that you did not quote, is that fewer individuals and fewer lower income people are able to enjoy these restaurant, not more. By limiting these plans to those that can afford to stay at a Disney hotel, you have cut access for those people who are lower income. Before, they could splurge and have one some number of meals at Disney's table service restaurants. Now these restaurants are full of Disney Hotel guests that eat every meal there. This is a zero sum game. If those of you dining plan fans are saying that you now get to eat more meals there than you would have before, you are displacing someone. Clearly you are not displacing those that are staying on the concierge level, instead, you are displacing those that have to scrimp and save to take their family to Disney World and stay at the Motel 6 because even Pop Century is too expensive for them.

There are 11 restaurant that are all you can eat...just so are informed correctly. Please let me know if you'd like me to list them for you...

When I first started going to Disney World in the 80's, Liberty Tree Tavern had a menu (quite a good one), The Land Grill had a menu, King Stefan's had a menu. These are just three examples of restaurants that have switched to all-one-can-eat and have dropped in quality (both food selection and quality[/quote]

I'm sorry you feel like they've let the riff raf in...

It amuses me that both you and FormerNYer have accused me of being elitist when among the things that bothers me about these plans is that they cut access for those for whom a Disney trip is the biggest financial burden.

Now, you know nothing about me or my economic status. All I know about you is that you have been to Disney World 3 times in 4 years. You stayed in a mid-priced hotel once, at a budget hotel once, and offsite in what you describe as a villa (does not sound cheap).

You hardly qualify as poor folk. You might qualify as the Clampets if by that you mean nouveau riche (if you are going to use pop culture references, be sure you understand them).

And that some of us are stupid enough to believe that we are participating in "fine dinning" when in fact as you say we are not (by, the by I loooove it ).

I have never said that restaurants like Jiko, Artist's Point, or even California Grill (a restaurant I do not like) were not fine dining. What I have said repeatedly is that either Disney has to be lowering quality to pay for these plans or that plan guests are spending more overall on food than they would have without these plans (otherwise Disney's profit goes down).

/carmi

 

[CathrynRose]

it degrades the level of service (given that tip is included, why should servers work for it, this leads to a general decline).


/carmi

I disagree with this.

Having served for years - being guaranteed an 18% tip on a dang big check, from every single table!??!? I'd be a heckuva happy server. And I wouldnt turn sour all night (from being shafted from another table)

Those servers are locked in to dang good pay - I dont think they'd risk it by being mediocre, being complained about, possibly being fired and end up at Chili's or somewhere where your checks ARE NEVER gonna be as huge as Disney.

You get what you give - treat your server good, they'll treat you good.

 

[jj1403]

The Coral Reef was full before. It is still full. What this means is that either you are not eating at a restaurant of the same quality when it was priced too high for you, or that you are paying too much for some other part of your meal service. Other wise, Disney is losing money on these plans and we all agree that is not true.

/carmi

Your statement is false it was not always full before. It might have been busy but it was still accessable. Just because they've changed the menu does not mean they are sacraficing quality. As I ate there while participating on the dinning plan (at it still wasn't full by the way) and when I wasn't, people were still able to walk up to counter and be seated.

Disney offers vacation packages in order to competive in the market. (And ...the horror to make more money!) They do it so that others who might not think it a possibility and affordable reality.

Since you eat off property I'd think you'd get tired of defending...to be honest I don't know...your opinions (which lets be honest here....are by no means fact).

Maybe you should contact restaurants directly and ask to speak to the chefs and discuss their menus. Maybe then you'll have the correct and accurate information you need for your opinions. Because after all, all of these comments we are all making are just that "our own" opinions. And for me I do not think any of your "facts" are true or the opinions of the masses.

Now because I know neither of is going to back down!! I'm going to go have supper and I'll come back later to see how you've twisted and dissected my words. If not I hope we'll consider this matter closed. As my original question was answered.