Conspiracy theory's

[crashbb]

I looked at the link that was there, no I don't understand those equations. But I do understand construction and building engineering from my experience in the field and in school. There was not an explanation(that I saw in there) that gave reason as to why the core of the building collapsed. Think of the largest heaviest steel in the building placed very close together, kind of like a building in a building. There is no way the steel columns in that core can collapse other than physically cutting them. They aren't just going to fall apart because the floors are coming down. Can somebody please give me a reason why the building core collapsed into nothing?

I also wonder how a massive wide body jet can leave only a small 10 or so foot diameter hole in a building. And then somehow the massive multi-ton engines magically disappear.

Just to be clear - you are suggesting that, no only did the US government place explosives within the building, they also faked both planes?

 

[PaulaSB12]

Where is this fact from? Everything I've seen has shown that we have CO2 levels at around 390 ppmv right now, and the highest it's been in the recent past (400,000 years) is about 300 ppmv.

Are you refering to the study of birch leaf Stomata done by Wagner?

No the ice core records show that the level of co2 FOLLOWS temperature change not the other way round

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov0WwtPcALE
http://www.globalwarming.nottinghamshiretimes.co.uk/
"The major "sin" for the global warmists is CO2. The Kyoto treaty is meant to reduce the amount of this gas so as, they say, to reduce the degree of warming and eventually return us to some stable climate system. If we look at the historical situation, however, this is cause for alarm. For one thing, there has never been a stable climate system. For another, the level of CO2 in our atmosphere is near its historic low. In the long run, the greatest danger is too little rather than too much CO2. There has been a long-term reduction of CO2 throughout the 4.5-billion-year history of the Earth. If this tendency continues, eventually our planet may become as lifeless as Mars.

Glaciation has prevailed for 90% of the last several million years. Extreme cold. Biting cold. Cold too intense for bikinis and swimming trunks. No matter what scary scenarios global-warming enthusiasts dream up, they pale in comparison with the conditions another ice age would deliver. Look to our past climate. Fifteen thousand years ago, an ice sheet a kilometer and a half thick covered all of North America north of a line stretching from somewhere around Seattle to Cleveland and New York City.

Instead of reducing CO2, we should, perhaps, be increasing it. We should pay the smokestack industries hard dollars for every kilogram of soot they pump into the atmosphere. Instead of urging Chinese to stop using coal and turn instead to nuclear-generated electricity, we should beg them to continue using coal. Rather than bringing us to the edge of global-warming catastrophe, anthropogenic climate change may have spared us descent into what would be the most serious and far-reaching challenge facing humankind in the 21st century - dealing with a rapidly deteriorating climate that wants to plunge us into an ice age. Let's hope Antarctica and Greenland melt. Let's hope the sea levels rise. All life glorifies warmth. Only death prefers the icy fingers of endless winter. "

The Great Green, Global Warming, Con-Trick

The current panic over Global Warming, dismissed as dishonest and ‘junk science’ by many of the world’s top scientists, is being fuelled by outright lies and blatant scaremongering. Even our love of animals is being used against us, in order to persuade us to accept their theories as facts. ‘Tigers, Polar Bears, and umpteen other animals, could be extinct within thirty-years.’ So runs an advertisement currently appearing on television; and that is the first clue, that the argument is as full as holes as a pair of fishnet stockings. After all, anything could happen, including – nothing at all.

Now, advertising on television is expensive, very expensive indeed, and one of the reasons for using this media is because of its cinematic effect. Your audience can see the animals, and listen to the informed and compassionate narrative – and they’re hooked, despite the fact that the narrator is probably a professional actor, and most of the animals shown are threatened more by losing their natural habitat to man, and not through global warming. However, the main reason people advertise on television is in order to sell us something. In this particular case we are being sold a concept, the idea that global warming is all man’s fault, but we can, by doing as we’re told, and in conjunction with accepting a huge increase in taxation, turn things around – before it’s too late.

That of course is complete and absolute poppycock, but these are the same lunatics that have made it a disciplinary offence for a teacher to tell a child its being naughty, misbehaving, or acting like a spoilt child. In days gone by they could well have fallen off the edge of the world, and we'd be rid of them.

The media’s constant misuse of climate change to promote the hype that we are experiencing a sudden massive increase in global warming, was well illustrated by an article that appeared in The Daily Mail, on Friday June 15th 2007.

Columnist, Baz Bamigboye’s ‘Chilling Tale of Global Warming, an article on polar bears, quotes: ‘According to statistics, the worldwide polar bear population is around 20,000 and declining at the rate of 22 per cent a year.

Chilling stuff indeed – if it were true.

However, according to the World Wildlife Fund, about 20 distinct polar bear populations currently exist, accounting for approximately 22,000 polar bears worldwide. Of those distinct populations only two, representing about 16.4 percent of the total population, are decreasing. At the same time, 10 populations representing approximately 45.4 percent of the total population are stable, and 2 populations representing about 13.6 percent of the total number of polar bears are increasing. The status of the remaining populations is unknown. But then facts do not make for such dramatic bylines, do they?

 

[Missy1961]

This thread is "enlightening". I didn't realize that there were really people that bought into the 9/11 conspiracy hook, line, and sinker.

Should people question their government? Heck yes! But to think that our government conspired to kill thousands of its citizens for whatever purpose is ludacris and bordering on mental instability.

I agree with you. I have no problem with anyone questioning the government, in fact, I believe they should question it. But let's not forget logic either folks.

 

[DianeV]

I really cant believe the 911 stuff. How disrespectful to those who died that day and those who survived. Too many witness accounts of planes and live footage. Its hard for me to believe that some actually dont think Osama and his terrorists wouldnt do something like this?? This is what they do people

 

[LIDisneyFan]

How disrespectful to those who died that day and those who survived.

This.

 

[Phil'sFrontier]

Just to be clear - you are suggesting that, no only did the US government place explosives within the building, they also faked both planes?

I didn't even say the word gov't. I am just asking perfectly reasonable questions. Just someone tell me how the core collapsed. And just for the heck of it tell me how the 10foot hole in the pentagon was made by a wide body jet, and tell me what happened to the engines, wing sections, tail sections.

Instead of calling me names why not give me a reasonable answer to these questions.

 

[donac]

As a change of pace. I am a calculus teacher and we had some free time at the end of the year. My students had to do a report about some aspect of the space program.

One group talked about the moon landing conspiracy. The students all know I am a Disney lover(I have a villians poster in my classroom). the students who were talking about the moon landing conspiracy brought up the name Walt Disney. The latest slant is that Walt had one of the biggest studios so the government could film there. I loved the report. The students in the class kept looking at the presenters to me and back again to see if I was getting mad.

 

[DopeyDame]

I looked at the link that was there, no I don't understand those equations. But I do understand construction and building engineering from my experience in the field and in school. There was not an explanation(that I saw in there) that gave reason as to why the core of the building collapsed. Think of the largest heaviest steel in the building placed very close together, kind of like a building in a building. There is no way the steel columns in that core can collapse other than physically cutting them. They aren't just going to fall apart because the floors are coming down. Can somebody please give me a reason why the building core collapsed into nothing?

I also wonder how a massive wide body jet can leave only a small 10 or so foot diameter hole in a building. And then somehow the massive multi-ton engines magically disappear.

Phil, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you actually do want an answer to your questions. I'm not entirely sure I understand your question though and what you mean by the 'core' of the building in this case. Here's my best attempt at an explanation not involving math, using several quotes from the northwestern link. (BTW, this isn't the only paper that was published, it's just the first one that showed up from a non-governmental source when I googled it.)

I'll start by saying that your instincts, as developed by your career in construction, are actually the same as most engineers and construction folks upon first seeing the actual event. Just like the importance of harmonic frequency with the Tacoma Bridge (easily google-able if you aren't familiar with it) - the importance of progressive collapse wasn't fully appreciated until tragedy struck.

Here's the money quote from the abstract:
"It is shown that progressive collapse will be triggered if the total
internal energy loss during the crushing of one story [equal to the
energy dissipated by the complete crushing and compaction of one story, minus the loss of gravity potential during the crushing of that
story] exceeds the kinetic energy impacted to that story. Regardless of the load capacity of the columns, there is no way to deny the
inevitability of progressive collapse driven by gravity alone if this criterion is satisfied [for the World Trade Center it is satisfied with an order-of-magnitude margin]."
It's not just the weight of the floors, but the energy of the impact on the floor below that cause problems. We can think about that in our own life - the feeling of holding a 25 pound toddler is a lot different from the 25 pound toddler bowling you over at full speed (with lots of kinetic energy!) I can easily support my son when he's sitting in my lap, but he can knock me over if he rams me at full speed. (Yup, he's ALL BOY!)
Here's my best attempt to summarive the numbered points in their "Introduction" section.
You have some beams (not all that many) physically destroyed by the actual impact. That, right away, puts more weight on the remaining beams. Those beams are weakened by the fire. According to the study: "Because a significant amount of steel insulation was stripped, many structural steel members heated up to 600°C, as confirmed by annealing studies of steel debris
NIST 2005 [the structural steel used loses about 20% of its yield strength already at 300°C, and about 85% at 600°C]"
While buildings are designed with HUGE margains of safey, having many supports down to just 15% of their design capacity is a HUGE hit. Of course, not all of the structure is made of steel. Because different materials react differently to heat, you end up with forces pushing and pulling in different directions than that for which they were designed. All of these forces combined to cause buckling (not breaking, necessarily) to the main steal support structures and to cause the first few floors to collapse. That's when we get to the energy issue - the floor below - already presumably damaged at least a little - now has to hold not only the weight of the floor above but most absorb the impact of energy from the floor above. Unfortunately, those supports couldn't handle it. most of the math in the paper shows exactly how this energy interaction happens and proves that acceleration due to gravity alone (without the aid of any mysterious explosions), causes enough energy to begin the collapse. Once the first few floors collapse in this manner, the rest of the building is absolutely going to fall as there is just more and more energy and weight being put onto the floors below as each floor collapses.

Does that make sense? If you really want to dig in a little more, do some internet brushing up on kinetic and potential energy, and then re-read pages 309 and 310. There's no real math on 309, and it contains the heart of the analysis, for our purposes.

As for the size of the hole - I never saw anything indicating it was only 10 feet or so around, although I'd guess that the outside hole in the building was pretty clean, since the plane would have had a lot of energy upon initial impact.

 

[crashbb]

I didn't even say the word gov't. I am just asking perfectly reasonable questions. Just someone tell me how the core collapsed. And just for the heck of it tell me how the 10foot hole in the pentagon was made by a wide body jet, and tell me what happened to the engines, wing sections, tail sections.

Instead of calling me names why not give me a reasonable answer to these questions.

WHERE did I call you a name? I'm trying to understand what you believed happened.

I'll rephrase my question:

Just to be clear - you believe that someone planted something within the building (which is what caused it to fall) and you believe that the images of the planes hitting the building were faked?

 

[FlightlessDuck]

A lot of the conspiracy theories I don't buy has to do with the inability to explain a plausible motive. At least one that isn't good enough to risk such a huge conspiracy. A simple assassination, perpetuated by a small group of individuals or even a foreign government is one thing, but I can't see the benefits outweighing the risks in a large scale conspiracy like a faked terrorist attack or faking an environmental calamity.

 

[Jennasis]

I didn't even say the word gov't. I am just asking perfectly reasonable questions. Just someone tell me how the core collapsed. And just for the heck of it tell me how the 10foot hole in the pentagon was made by a wide body jet, and tell me what happened to the engines, wing sections, tail sections.

Instead of calling me names why not give me a reasonable answer to these questions.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.asp

 

[LukenDC]

I also wonder how a massive wide body jet can leave only a small 10 or so foot diameter hole in a building. And then somehow the massive multi-ton engines magically disappear.

The hole in the Pentagon left by the impact was huge. I saw it firsthand. Pictures in the media and television coverage simply did not convey the extent of the devastation.

 

[Phil'sFrontier]

The building core is 47 large steel vertical columns in a space 87 feet by 135 feet. These columns go from the foundation bedrock all the way to the top. Even with the floors collapsing down on each other, it makes no sense that the core just crumbles into nothing.
When buildings are collapsed for new construction, most of this steel is already cut, leaving only a small piece left for the explosives to cut. If this is not done the building will not come down.
I mean at the very least the core would have at least put up a fight and the one tower would not have collapsed into it's own footprint.

I don't think I will post in this thread anymore, it is getting to divided in here. I am going back to the happy threads about Disney now.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Saddam Hussein was a fake. The CIA took a dinner theater from Tulsa, OK actor named John Gilnitz in 1979 and set him up as "Saddam Hussein" in 1979 so they could have a puppet in the Middle East.

Mulder?
Scully?

 

[DopeyDame]

I don't think I will post in this thread anymore, it is getting to divided in here. I am going back to the happy threads about Disney now.

Wow - for the first time on the dis my feelings are actually a little hurt. I spent a not insignificant amount of time trying to reread the report and then summarize and explain it to you in a way that would make sense (without using math, which is how it makes the most sense) and now you just quit.
bummer.

As for the calc teacher above - I LOOOOOVE that you had your students do a report on the space program and that they clearly like you enough to feel comfortable doing it on a Walt/Moon conspiracy theory. (Although I do hope you set them straight at some point. )

 

[rie'smom]

I believe in human-induced climate change.

How do we explain the climate changes over the past few billion years? The Earth goes through periodic warming/cooling -climate changes- and always has before humans existed.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

The building core is 47 large steel vertical columns in a space 87 feet by 135 feet. These columns go from the foundation bedrock all the way to the top. Even with the floors collapsing down on each other, it makes no sense that the core just crumbles into nothing.

It also makes no sense that a conspiracy group would demolish the buildings. What's the point? "They" already flew planes into it. 3,000 people were already dead. Why bother? It's just one more thing that could go wrong, or they could get caught setting up.

 

[disneylovin24]

Oh well then, you must be right. HOw stupid of me to throw facts into a conspiracy conversation.


ETA-How do you think the people whose families actually died on those planes feel about people who say they didn't exist??

Yeah, if not where did Flight 77 and its passengers go??

This is what I want to know!!

Read about the Georgia Guidestones. Scary Stuff there.

Haarp is intresting...

so is some of the UFO stuff.

I guess the one that sets me off the worst is New World order info. Those folks exist and are scary.

Never heard about it before today. Looked it up, it looks mighty interesting! I really want to read more later when I have more time to think about it and digest it.

I really cant believe the 911 stuff. How disrespectful to those who died that day and those who survived. Too many witness accounts of planes and live footage. Its hard for me to believe that some actually dont think Osama and his terrorists wouldnt do something like this?? This is what they do people

Exactly! Seriously, Osama and his gang take so much pride in 9/11. So think about it, Osama and a group of terrorists would have to be in on the theory too....for some reason I don't see that working out.

The hole in the Pentagon left by the impact was huge. I saw it firsthand. Pictures in the media and television coverage simply did not convey the extent of the devastation.

I saw it a few months after 9/11 and it was a lot larger then any pictures or videos show.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

How do we explain the climate changes over the past few billion years? The Earth goes through periodic warming/cooling -climate changes- and always has before humans existed.

Just because the Earth goes through cycles of heating and cooling, it's OK for us to just dump pollutants into the air and water when we can otherwise avoid it?

 

[rie'smom]

This thread is "enlightening". I didn't realize that there were really people that bought into the 9/11 conspiracy hook, line, and sinker.

Should people question their government? Heck yes! But to think that our government conspired to kill thousands of its citizens for whatever purpose is ludacris and bordering on mental instability.

Some of us actually have researched both sides and did not buy anything hook, line, and sinker.

I really cant believe the 911 stuff. How disrespectful to those who died that day and those who survived. Too many witness accounts of planes and live footage. Its hard for me to believe that some actually dont think Osama and his terrorists wouldnt do something like this?? This is what they do people

No it is not disrespectful. It's more disrespectful in my opinion, not to look into the events of that day.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.asp

Snopes=wikipedia

It also makes no sense that a conspiracy group would demolish the buildings. What's the point? "They" already flew planes into it. 3,000 people were already dead. Why bother? It's just one more thing that could go wrong, or they could get caught setting up.

3000 people die in a few minutes every day. Seeing huge buildings fall leaves a huge impact.

Just because the Earth goes through cycles of heating and cooling, it's OK for us to just dump pollutants into the air and water when we can otherwise avoid it?

Did I day we shouldn't pollute? I absolutely think we should conserve resources and not pollute. My point was the Earth has gone and will continue to go through climate changes.