Conservative Thread: We cannot do everything at once, but we can do something at once

[JB111107]

Is that factual?
"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. ... Reason and free enquiry are the only effectual agents against error. Give a loose to them, they will support the true religion, by bringing every false one to their tribunal, to the test of their investigation." - Thomas Jefferson

I understand that Jefferson and Franklin, amongst others, were deists and George Washington and John Adams were "anti organised religion" .

ford family

Being against organized religion is not the same thing as being "without faith". There are many many people worldwide, of all different beliefs, that do not practice any orgainzed religion, yet they do believe in a God.

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

Amen! Well said Zip. The bolded part reminds me of one of my favorite passages....

Well, actually the whole of John chapter 10 is awesome - but here's some of my favorite parts...

"I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. All who ever came before me were theives and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me- just as the Father knows me and I know the Father-and I lay down my life for the sheep..."

I don't know, this is the image that popped into my head when I read Zip's post. Jesus will always be the gate, but I'd love to do my part in helping to shepherd lost sheep with His message. I don't know, I'm kinda new to this, am I off base?

I certainly had that text in mind when I used the sheep imagery. I also was thinking of Ezekiel 34:11-16

11 "'God, the Master, says: From now on, I myself am the shepherd. I'm going looking for them. 12 As shepherds go after their flocks when they get scattered, I'm going after my sheep. I'll rescue them from all the places they've been scattered to in the storms. 13 I'll bring them back from foreign peoples, gather them from foreign countries, and bring them back to their home country. I'll feed them on the mountains of Israel, along the streams, among their own people. 14 I'll lead them into lush pasture so they can roam the mountain pastures of Israel, graze at leisure, feed in the rich pastures on the mountains of Israel. 15 And I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep. I myself will make sure they get plenty of rest. 16 I'll go after the lost, I'll collect the strays, I'll doctor the injured, I'll build up the weak ones and oversee the strong ones so they're not exploited.

 

[breezy1077]

I certainly had that text in mind when I used the sheep imagery. I also was thinking of Ezekiel 34:11-16

Yes. I haven't gotten to Ezekiel yet. That's verry fitting!

 

[ford family]

Being against organized religion is not the same thing as being "without faith". There are many many people worldwide, of all different beliefs, that do not practice any orgainzed religion, yet they do believe in a God.

And Deists?

The point being made, in my view erroneously, was that, to the Founding Fathers, Christianity was universal and homogenous and that such historical authenticity should bolster modern Christians as their beliefs are attacked by others today.

ford family

 

[Geoff_M]

I understand that Jefferson and Franklin, amongst others, were deists and George Washington and John Adams were "anti organised religion" .

With the possible exception of Franklin (who was a little "out there"), I think that this is an often overstated notion.

 

[mickeymedic]

Where's the duct tape?

 

[ford family]

With the possible exception of Franklin (who was a little "out there"), I think that this is an often overstated notion.

On what basis do you think that?

ford family

 

[Saxsoon]

With the possible exception of Franklin (who was a little "out there"), I think that this is an often overstated notion.

Jefferson was completely without a doubt, not Christian. He wrote a Bible that took out all of the miracles attributed to Christ, and even went so far as to take out the Resurrection.

 

[ford family]

Where's the duct tape?

Meaning?

ford family

 

[Geoff_M]

On what basis do you think that?

ford family

Jefferson was an active member of the Anglican Church, sent his children to church schools, funded missionary work, and had no problem regularly attending worship services that were conducted in the US Capitol building. While he later in life had personal doubts about the divinity of Christ, his actions would be hard to define as "anti-organized religion".

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

Where's the duct tape?

I think we're all cool here.

Jefferson was completely without a doubt, not Christian. He wrote a Bible that took out all of the miracles attributed to Christ, and even went so far as to take out the Resurrection.

Thanks for reminding me of that! His work was much like that of The Jesus Seminar -a group of progressive biblical scholars (Marcus Borg and Dominic Crossan, to name a couple) who published a version of the Bible excising much of the miraculous. I had forgotten that Jeffersonian connection.

 

[breezy1077]

Thanks for reminding me of that! His work was much like that of The Jesus Seminar -a group of progressive biblical scholars (Marcus Borg and Dominic Crossan, to name a couple) who published a version of the Bible excising much of the miraculous. I had forgotten that Jeffersonian connection.

Ummm, how did they justify doing THAT?

 

[Geoff_M]

Jefferson was completely without a doubt, not Christian. He wrote a Bible that took out all of the miracles attributed to Christ, and even went so far as to take out the Resurrection.

That appears to be a myth. It arises out of a "condensed" version of the New Testament that Jefferson wrote for use in trying to convert Native Americans to Christianity. However, the accusation that he left out whole categories of texts (miracles, etc.) appears to be mistaken. Again, Jefferson isn't acting like someone hostile to religion.

Update: It appears to be disputed whether or not Jefferson's work was for converting Native Americans or not. Those that dispute the notion contend that the work was an effort to summarize the philosophies of Jesus. If that were the case, then it would make sense to leave out miracles and such, as they'd be "out of scope" for the topic.

At worst, Jefferson didn't believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible and had some problems with some of the things being taught by the clergy of his day. Which would probably put him in the same category as most people sitting in the pews in most organized churches across the US.

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

Did y'all see this linked on Drudge? That's H's chief speechwriter on the left, groping the Clinton cardboard cutout. I won't post the pic but here's a link.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/12/04/one_more_question.html

Do you think he'll pass the vetting process?

Question No. 58 in the transition team vetting document for the Obama White House asks that applicants: "Please provide the URL address of any websites that feature you in either a personal or professional capacity (e.g. Facebook, My Space, etc.)"

Question No. 63 asks that applicants "please provide any other information ... that could ... be a possible source of embarrassment to you, your family, or the President-Elect."

For a while there this afternoon, President-elect Barack Obama's immensely talented chief speechwriter, 27-year-old Jon Favreau, might have been pondering how to address that question.

That's when some interesting photos of a recent party he attended -- including one where he's dancing with a life-sized cardboard cut-out of secretary of state-designate Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, and another where he's placed his hand on the cardboard former first lady's chest while a friend is offering her lips a beer -- popped up on Facebook for about two hours. The photos were quickly taken down -- along with every other photo Favreau had of himself on the popular social networking site, save for one profile headshot.

 

[ford family]

Jefferson was an active member of the Anglican Church, sent his children to church schools, funded missionary work, and had no problem regularly attending worship services that were conducted in the US Capitol building. While he later in life had personal doubts about the divinity of Christ, his actions would be hard to define as "anti-organized religion".

Most people at that time attended church but not all worshipped. It was the social thing to do, a great meeting place and focal point.
If you take a look at "Religion and the Founding Fathers" at http://earlyamericanhistory.net/founding_fathers.htm you can see that some of them only paid lip service to the religious standards of their day by attending church but not taking communion or being confirmed.

ford family

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

Ummm, how did they justify doing THAT?

Well in my professional opinion they're whackadoodle

But if you must have details, here ya go...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar

 

[Database]

Well in my professional opinion they're whackadoodle

But if you must have details, here ya go...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar

Dang. Just saw your latest tag.
You shameless hound.

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

Dang. Just saw your latest tag.
You shameless hound.

I'm not proud of myself. It's really quite pathetic when I start schmoozing for tags. I always feel so rotten the morning after.

 

[Database]

I'm not proud of myself. It's really quite pathetic when I start schmoozing for tags. I always feel so rotten the morning after.

All is fair in Love, War and gettin' a cool scrolling tag!

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

All is fair in Love, War and gettin' a cool scrolling tag!