Commerical Use Policy Update - New Thread!

[AstroBlasters]

I am saying they know can't fill any more at the rates they need to charge to be profitable.


No, no convoluted logic adds back the room. They leased the rooms to DVC and were paid for them. The renters passed on cash rooms and looked elsewhere. The assumption that most people check DVC rental sites before Disneys site is not very logical to me.

I am personally getting a cash room this labor day @BC only because the AP rate is more in line with the quality of the room and slightly above what I would have to pay a from the board sponsor @27 / point. I would not pay the same money for more risk and less benefits and that is a safe assumption for most consumers. A room at the Swan with a balcony and guaranteed view is only $25 less so that would have been my next choice before renting but it is an inferior good to a WDW resort. For me I need about a $50 a night difference to consider renting or going to a S/D. All consumers make value and risk judgments.

DVC owners are not typical , most tourists don't check rental sites , and when they do they don't understand the process and don't like the perceived risk and need to pay upfront. You get the ads for them because you visit DVC related sites , most people don't.


Thats just an inappropriate comment, what is not productive is to make an assumption that everyone is dumb and you are the smartest guy in the room.


As far as your perception of hotel prices in Crescent lake they have risen 31% in the past 10 years thats above CSI , so in relation yes people are seeing less value.

I mean….. I’d probably vote @HyperspaceMountainPilot as the smartest person in the room…. and that’s not saying there aren’t a lot of very smart people also in the room….

I do agree that the average WDW guest is likely to a be a “once in a lifetime” or infrequent guest and probably is afraid DVC rental sites are a scam.

IMO a more frequent WDW guest is going to understand the price/amenities dynamic of hotel vs DVC and is more likely check DVC Rental sites and message boards.

But, I think the rental sites are paying very good money to blast their product into google search engines, Facebook ads, YouTube vloggers ads, etc. They pay for those ads because they know it works.

There is also word of mouth. I have a co-worker who is taking their family on their first ever WDW trip and they were going to stay at a moderate until I educated them on DVC and now they are renting a 2BD OKW. She was afraid it was all a scam until I explained to her how it’s just like people renting out a multi-family vacation home, why someone would buy in, and what would make them want to rent out points.

 

[Sandisw]

No, I think this is something that is factual versus feelings oriented. Someone can say "I've never experienced an issue with spec renting or walking", but someone can't say "Spec renting or walking isn't a big issue". Widespread is really a meaningless data point. Did DVC actually use that term, or was it one of the many descriptions you inserted in your retelling of the story? If 100 of us are all hitting a pinata at a party and it's filled with 10 Abba Zaba bars and 90 pieces of junky plastic fidget toys, and when it rips open someone runs in and takes all 10 Abba Zaba bars for themselves, statistically, there are 90 fidget toys left so it wasn't a "widespread" issue. Further, if you don't like Abba Zaba bars, it isn't an issue...for you. For the other 90 people, it's a huge issue, even though we weren't guaranteed an Abba Zabba bar because of the limited quantity. It's hardly fair or relevant to say it wasn't a "widespread issue" at the party just because you didn't experience it or weren't affected by it because of lack of desire to have it in the first place. You can say it's a deep issue with a narrow scope, the same way a broadhead penetrating a deers heart liver and lungs is narrow and deep and kills the deer.

If the DVC executives, who have an adopted policy in place for what defines commercial purpose, state this is not a widespread issue**the word widespread is what I have in my personal notes from the meeting; however the word used in the DVC News article said “not common practice”. for the membership, then that is the offical view.

The fact that some of us here happen to agree with them doesn’t change that was their offical stance in December and so far, I don’t see them having done anything to contradict that.

You can certainly have the opinion that they only said it so they didn’t have to admit it really is.

There is a large spec rental market and it has implications for certain owners, but that is not the same as saying it’s a big issue for the membership when doing it is not against the currebt rules because it’s not been identified by DVC as “commercial”.

And, if the vast majority of owners are simply not being impacted by it when using their membership, then it’s simply an opinion that is a big issue.

Personally, something is only a big issue when the bulk of owners are being impacted negatively.

The only fact we have is that the offical policy to define commercial purpose is from 2011.

Beyond that, we all have the right to evaluate what is happening and share our opinions as such.

There are plenty of us who just don’t see the spec rental market the same way others do in the context of the entire DVC system and plenty who think it does.

If DVC decides that spec renting is an action they believe violates the commercial purpose clause contract, then they will add it to their definition.

So far, they have not.

 

[Sandisw]

Yeah honestly if you read the documentation that is linked on that checkbox in the booking engine, I would say that it leads you to believe that any renting is not permitted. The reason I say that is terms like personal and commercial are not explicitly defined.

I actually say the opposite. If you read that it makes clear renting is allowed but just not frequently or regularly.

But, as you say, what is vague is what actions by an owner would put them into the frequent or regular box vs the infrequent or irregular box.

 

[AstroBlasters]

Yeah honestly if you read the documentation that is linked on that checkbox in the booking engine, I would say that it leads you to believe that any renting is not permitted. The reason I say that is terms like personal and commercial are not explicitly defined.

From the DVC FAQ

 

[Sandisw]

From the DVC FAQ

Thank you!! Maybe they need to remind the CMs that the FAQs exist!!

 

[mkatsy]

If the DVC executives, who have an adopted policy in place for what defines commercial purpose, state this is not a widespread issue for the membership, then that is the offical view.

The fact that some of us here happen to agree with them doesn’t change that was their offical stance in December and so far, I don’t see them having done anything to contradict that.

You can certainly have the opinion that they only said it so they didn’t have to admit it really is.

There is a large spec rental market and it has implications for certain owners, but that is not the same as saying it’s a big issue for the membership when doing it is not against the currebt rules because it’s not been identified by DVC as “commercial”.

And, if the vast majority of owners are simply not being impacted by it when using their membership, then it’s simply an opinion that is a big issue.

Personally, something is only a big issue when the bulk of owners are being impacted negatively.

The only fact we have is that the offical policy to define commercial purpose is from 2011.

Beyond that, we all have the right to evaluate what is happening and share our opinions as such.

There are plenty of us who just don’t see the spec rental market the same way others do in the context of the entire DVC system and plenty who think it does.

If DVC decides that spec renting is an action they believe violates the commercial purpose clause contract, then they will add it to their definition.

So far, they have not.

But how do you know what percentage of the membership is affected if you don’t survey them and ask them?

 

[AstroBlasters]

But how do you know what percentage of the membership is affected if you don’t survey them and ask them?

You ask Chat GPT!

Disney Vacation Club (DVC) has not publicly released specific data on the percentage of memberships impacted by commercial renting (i.e., members renting points on a commercial scale or businesses buying memberships to rent them out). However, here's what is known and can be reasonably inferred:

1.​

• Disney has acknowledged increased activity in the rental market — especially after the pandemic, when many owners began renting out unused points.
• Some DVC forums and resale sites estimate that a small but noticeable portion of memberships (possibly 5–10%) may be engaged in regular renting, but this includes both casual and commercial-level renters.
• Disney has updated its terms and cracked down on commercial renters (e.g., revoking benefits, warning members, or blocking bookings) in response to this trend.

2.​

• If you're referring to members losing booking availability due to point renters, many members feel the effects during peak times.
• If you're asking how many members are directly engaged in renting points commercially, it is likely a small minority — estimated under 5%, but even that can create a disproportionate impact on booking patterns.

3.​

• The fact that Disney still allows point rentals (within guidelines) shows they tolerate casual renting.
• Commercial-scale renting (operating like a business) is what they’re targeting, indicating it’s not the majority of members but a noticeable enough subset to warrant enforcement.

---

Summary:​

While exact numbers are not published, less than 5% of DVC memberships are likely involved in commercial renting, but a larger portion of the community is affected indirectly due to the impact on booking availability, especially at high-demand resorts and seasons.

Would you like an overview of how commercial renting is defined under DVC policies, or how it affects availability at specific resorts like Grand Californian or Polynesian?

 

[mkatsy]

You ask Chat GPT!

Disney Vacation Club (DVC) has not publicly released specific data on the percentage of memberships impacted by commercial renting (i.e., members renting points on a commercial scale or businesses buying memberships to rent them out). However, here's what is known and can be reasonably inferred:

1.​

• Disney has acknowledged increased activity in the rental market — especially after the pandemic, when many owners began renting out unused points.
• Some DVC forums and resale sites estimate that a small but noticeable portion of memberships (possibly 5–10%) may be engaged in regular renting, but this includes both casual and commercial-level renters.
• Disney has updated its terms and cracked down on commercial renters (e.g., revoking benefits, warning members, or blocking bookings) in response to this trend.

2.​

• If you're referring to members losing booking availability due to point renters, many members feel the effects during peak times.
• If you're asking how many members are directly engaged in renting points commercially, it is likely a small minority — estimated under 5%, but even that can create a disproportionate impact on booking patterns.

3.​

• The fact that Disney still allows point rentals (within guidelines) shows they tolerate casual renting.
• Commercial-scale renting (operating like a business) is what they’re targeting, indicating it’s not the majority of members but a noticeable enough subset to warrant enforcement.

---

Summary:​

While exact numbers are not published, less than 5% of DVC memberships are likely involved in commercial renting, but a larger portion of the community is affected indirectly due to the impact on booking availability, especially at high-demand resorts and seasons.

Would you like an overview of how commercial renting is defined under DVC policies, or how it affects availability at specific resorts like Grand Californian or Polynesian?

I’m sorry, I’m gonna be honest, I’m not sure if you’re serious you cannot use Chat Gpt to make data driven decisions. It’s just scouring the internet and giving you back the information it finds, ALL the information. You’re missing huge chunks of your population that don’t post their feelings and experiences. Chat Gpt can’t read minds. Additionally, the most vocal subset of your population is over represented in the data.

 

[Mouseforward]

I’m sorry, I’m gonna be honest, I’m not sure if you’re serious you cannot use Chat Gpt to make data driven decisions. It’s just scouring the internet and giving you back the information it finds, ALL the information. You’re missing huge chunks of your population that don’t post their feelings and experiences. Chat Gpt can’t read minds. Additionally, the most vocal subset of your population is over represented in the data.

The best part about that ChatGPT is it probably sourced from the posts in these threads.

So if we have multiple people posting how purple elephants are stealing all of our DVC rooms, we have a chance of getting it in there.

 

[AstroBlasters]

I’m sorry, I’m gonna be honest, I’m not sure if you’re serious you cannot use Chat Gpt to make data driven decisions. It’s just scouring the internet and giving you back the information it finds, ALL the information. You’re missing huge chunks of your population that don’t post their feelings and experiences. Chat Gpt can’t read minds. Additionally, the most vocal subset of your population is over represented in the data.

<pssst… I’m in my 40’s….I was just trying to be funny>

 

[Sandisw]

But how do you know what percentage of the membership is affected if you don’t survey them and ask them?

DVC has all the data they need. They know exactly how many reservations are booked in the names of others.

They know which memberships are holding every single room. They know how often rooms are being walked.

They know which memberships are in the name of LLCs or brokers and what activity is happening.

They know which owners have been exceeding the 20 reservations rule, who changes the lead guests and how often, and everything in between.

DVC does surveys all the time so they have anecdotal data too.

I think it’s pretty safe to say that they have a pulse on where the membership is when it comes to the satisfaction.

ETA: I know people are still hopeful that more changes are coming and they could be, but IMO, it’s pretty interesting that they rolled out this newest process without any notification to owners and when asked if it’s coming, the response is no because there isn’t any change in policy.

 

[mkatsy]

DVC has all the data they need. They know exactly how many reservations are booked in the names of others.

They know which memberships are holding every single room. They know how often rooms are being walked.

They know which memberships are in the name of LLCs or brokers and what activity is happening.

They know which owners have been exceeding the 20 reservations rule, who changes the lead guests and how often, and everything in between.

DVC does surveys all the time so they have anecdotal data too.

I think it’s pretty safe to say that they have a pulse on where the membership is when it comes to the satisfaction.

Maybe others have but I have yet to receive a survey asking me about reservation availability, and my perception of its fairness. You can’t take data from resort amenities surveys, and pat yourself on the back about your booking procedures. Well you can, but you’re gaslighting yourself.

 

[BeachClub2014]

DVC has all the data they need. They know exactly how many reservations are booked in the names of others.

They know which memberships are holding every single room. They know how often rooms are being walked.

They know which memberships are in the name of LLCs or brokers and what activity is happening.

They know which owners have been exceeding the 20 reservations rule, who changes the lead guests and how often, and everything in between.

DVC does surveys all the time so they have anecdotal data too.

I think it’s pretty safe to say that they have a pulse on where the membership is when it comes to the satisfaction.

All true......and DVC ain't sayin'. They've only used the ubiquitous phrase "not widespread" in their public comments, which doesn't mean much in and of itself.

 

[Genie+]

I’m sorry, I’m gonna be honest, I’m not sure if you’re serious you cannot use Chat Gpt to make data driven decisions. It’s just scouring the internet and giving you back the information it finds, ALL the information. You’re missing huge chunks of your population that don’t post their feelings and experiences. Chat Gpt can’t read minds. Additionally, the most vocal subset of your population is over represented in the data.

The funniest thing is when I see one of my old posts being used in AI’s response

A good reminder that while a powerful technology, it’s only as good as the quality of data it finds. The more niche something is, the less weight it has.

I have found it latching on to wrong info because one thread used words likely authority and expert, so AI decided to post that one as an example instead of many others that had the correct info.

 

[Sandisw]

All true......and DVC ain't sayin'. They've only used the ubiquitous phrase "not widespread" in their public comments, which doesn't mean much in and of itself.

Well, as someone who was there and talked with other owners…and others…after, the board definitely wanted us to feel reassured that while happening, it wasn’t having a major impact on the membership.

So, it was pretty clear the impression they wanted us to have when it came to these topics.

 

[BeachClub2014]

Well, I can tell you that those of us there who talked with each other and the board definitely walked away with the impression that this was not a major issue.

They wanted us to walk away with that impression.

Yes, you've made that clear, and you may be right, or you may be mistaken in your impression and interpretation.

It should come as no surprise that DVC leadership would like owners to have the impression that all is well in DVCland. Did you really expect them to stand in front of everyone, wringing their hands and say that renting, primarily commercial and spec renting, along with reservation walking, has become a huge problem, and they don't know how to fix it? Of course, they can't and won't say that, even if it were the case.

 

[Mouseforward]

All true......and DVC ain't sayin'. They've only used the ubiquitous phrase "not widespread" in their public comments, which doesn't mean much in and of itself.

We probably have enough users in this thread or forum to get some data on areas like BLT and CCV or VGF 1 Studios.

The question is, how would you pinpoint it? If we had people report date attempted, room class, success or failure at 8 AM. I’m thinking we get some view of across Disney World availability at least for the first night.

However, I think we’d have to probably exclude boardwalk standard view and boardwalk view, and all the AK special rooms as there’s very little disagreement that there’s an issue with those rooms - but disney can consider the problem as not widespread if it’s only 3 room types.

 

[BeachClub2014]

We probably have enough users in this thread or forum to get some data on areas like BLT and CCV or VGF 1 Studios.

The question is, how would you pinpoint it? If we had people report date attempted, room class, success or failure at 8 AM. I’m thinking we get some view of across Disney World availability at least for the first night.

However, I think we’d have to probably exclude boardwalk standard view and boardwalk view, and all the AK special rooms as there’s very little disagreement that there’s an issue with those rooms - but disney can consider the problem as not widespread if it’s only 3 room types.

This example underscores the point I've been making all along about their "not widespread" comment. There's no scale or metric for us to really understand the depth and breadth of the issue.

The ability to reserve room types might be one metric to use. Still, maybe they meant that only a small percentage of owners rent points, or that only a small percentage of owners walk reservations, or that only a small number of total reservations are rented out, or that only a small number of the total reservations are walked.

The point is, we don't know, and they didn't say.

 

[Sandisw]

Yes, you've made that clear, and you may be right, or you may be mistaken in your impression and interpretation.

It should come as no surprise that DVC leadership would like owners to have the impression that all is well in DVCland. Did you really expect them to stand in front of everyone, wringing their hands and say that renting, primarily commercial and spec renting, along with reservation walking, has become a huge problem, and they don't know how to fix it? Of course, they can't and won't say that, even if it were the case.

And it’s possible that what they said is actually true?

This notion that they mislead owners is just not supported in fact.

They did not have to make any judgement statements at all and simply left it at yes, we want to stop commercial renting and we are focused on that.

But, we can agree to disagree and move on.

ETA: to add, the widespread comment was in relation to the number of owners who were seen as commercially renting. **** widespread was what I wrote down in my personal notes…DVc News reported it as “no common practice”

The comment relating to the number of reservations being walked or that were being booked by commercial renters represented a small percentage of all DVC reservations.

Which is why I keep pointing out that if you were not there to hear the entire conversation and the context, you may not have a complete picture.

 

[Cyberc1978]

DVC has all the data they need. They know exactly how many reservations are booked in the names of others.

They know which memberships are holding every single room. They know how often rooms are being walked.

They know which memberships are in the name of LLCs or brokers and what activity is happening.

They know which owners have been exceeding the 20 reservations rule, who changes the lead guests and how often, and everything in between.

DVC does surveys all the time so they have anecdotal data too.

I think it’s pretty safe to say that they have a pulse on where the membership is when it comes to the satisfaction.

ETA: I know people are still hopeful that more changes are coming and they could be, but IMO, it’s pretty interesting that they rolled out this newest process without any notification to owners and when asked if it’s coming, the response is no because there isn’t any change in policy.

I’d like to think nothing more is coming. That might be correct when it comes to updating policies etc but not when it comes to enforcement.

I’d like to see DVC enforce against the LLC, it should be an easy pickings. Then afterwards when we have seen the impact to availability etc if any, then we can have a talk about if more is required or not.

But to claim an owner with 500 or 1,000 points who either rents all or some points is hurting the membership as a whole is a stretch

Claiming that the same owners are violating the rules is fair - however the driver that goes 36mph in a 35 zone is also speeding.

Personally I don’t care about spec renting, have I done it my self, absolutely. However as stating in the original thread, I’ve always been able to get what I wanted even BWV SV - also less than 60 days. I’ll even go as far as to say I can do it for any time of the year. Admittedly it will be hard work with waitlisting and stalking but it can and have been done.

Heck the other day I even saw a studio p/g for 6 nights 2nd week of December. Could be the waitlist system didn’t work i don’t know but it was there.

The world is not black and white and definitely not DVC.