Circumcision may stop millions of HIV deaths-study

[chobie]

On the contrary, I have heard accounts from African women who have been infibulated who claim that they still have perfectly normal sexual response. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. It still doesn't make chopping off parts of their anatomy without their consent the right thing to do.

What is a perfectly normal sexual response to a culture of women who have had all their genitalia scraped off, have been sewed back shut so just a tiny hole is left and who have to be cut open with a knife by their husbands on their wedding nights? I doubt it is what we would call a normal sexual response.

I doubt they even have a word to describe what a female orgasm is. Sexual pleasure for women is not even a consideration, it's all about the man's pleasure. So, if he is pleased then their sex life is perfectly normal --for their culture.

 

[snowwite]

You can certainly disagree about whether or not boys should be circ'd, but you can't disagree with the medical fact that LukenDC posted.

Unless, of course, you have a medical fact that counters it, which I highly doubt.

There is no need for you to be a condescending jerk. I will be happy to send it to you when I get home.I am in Aruba right now so it will be a while.QUOTE=BuckNaked]Here's a novel approach - how about everyone doing what is right for their own family and stop judging the other side.[/QUOTE]
I do not think providing people with information so they can look into something as important as a surgical procedure which will alter thier child forever is the same as judging them. I looked high and low for information and still do before we proceed with any healthg care. I question the need for any "routine" tests ie. blood tests,urinalysis etc. I ask the doctor what condition he is testing for,the liklihood that my child or me has it and what if anything the treatment plan will be if anything.If the response is that it is a routine test I decline. If there are symptoms or family history or the physician presents information that convinces me it is necessary for my family member we proceed. Every single medical procedure poses it's risks. You have to weigh those against the benefits. I dont think there is one blanket answer for everyone but I do think we are too quick to place ourselves and our children under the surgeons knife in the US. The nurse who wrote that her facility has a 100% circ rate should be disturbed not proud of this number. It means there is a lot off unnessessary cutting going on. I would not be able to work at such a facility because part of my role is advocating for and educating my patients. I would be telling every parent the pros and cons not just the pros so that they could make an educated decision. Most babies have the surgery within the first 2 days of life when mom is still tired and full of hormones and the baby has just had a bunch of vaccinations. I know that I am in the minority but I do not think that is any reason why I cannot still say what I think too. I get the impression that you feel your opinion and people who agreee with you are the only ones that matter. The world is full of difference and we only learn from listening with open minds.
Try reading The Silent Knife.

 

[snowwite]

Bucknaked-please see Dr.Sears article with plenty of reasons Not to circ.
DECIDING WHETHER OR NOT TO CIRCUMCISE YOUR BABY BOY
This is a decision that many parents face. There are many misconceptions and out-of-date information that parents may read. Here is a summary of the pertinent issues that you should consider when making this decision.

Medical benefits - THERE ARE NONE! Do not circumcise your baby because you think there are some medical benefits. A recent review by the American Academy of Pediatrics looked at all the data from the past decades to see if there truly were any medical benefits. Their conclusion - NO. There are no significant medical benefits that make circumcision worth doing. Here are a few benefits that we used to think were true, and now know are not.

Cleanliness - although it is true, a circumcised ***** does not collect any white stuff underneath the foreskin like an intact ***** does, THIS IS NOT A MEDICAL BENEFIT. It is really just one less area to wash in the shower.

Decreased risk of STD's - this was a myth that we now know is not true.

Decreased risk of penile cancer - it used to be thought that circumcised men had a much lower chance of cancer of the *****. We now know that this benefit is much smaller than previously thought. The AAP determined that this benefit is so tiny, it is not worth circumcising for this reason.

Avoiding infections in the foreskin - it is true, occasionally intact foreskins get irritated. This is easily treated with warms soaks and washing. Rarely, the irritated foreskin becomes infected. This requires antibiotics to clear up, but is easily treatable. Even if this does happen once or twice in a person's life, it is not a reason to circumcise at birth.

Avoiding the need to do it later on - very rarely, someone has a problem with recurrent infections in the foreskin that need antibiotic treatment. Some of these men then need to be circumcised in an operating room under general anesthesia. This is extremely rare, however, and is not a reason to circumcise everyone at birth.

Avoiding bladder infections - it used to thought that circumcised boys and men had a much lower chance of bladder infections. The AAP now knows that this benefit is very small, and is only true for the first few years of life. After that, there is no difference in the number of bladder infections. Again, not a reason to circumcise.

THEREFORE, IF YOU DECIDE TO CIRCUMCISE YOUR CHILD, DO NOT DO SO BECAUSE YOU THINK THERE IS ANY MEDICAL BENEFIT.

Religious reasons - some people choose to circumcise for religious or cultural reasons. This is a personal decision.

Don't want to be teased - while this may have been true in the U.S. decades ago, the truth is that your uncircumcised kids will be in good company in the locker room when they are teenagers. Less and less people in the U.S. are now circumcising their boys.

Too much trouble to take care of - some people think that an intact ***** is too much trouble to pull back and clean, especially during childhood. Well, the truth is, you are not even supposed to pull back the foreskin until it naturally comes back on its own between age 3 years and adolescence. So there really isn't anything to even take care of until then.

Want your boy to look like dad - the main difference that your child will notice between him and dad is the hair. He won't even notice any difference in the ***** until he is old enough that you can then explain to him the difference.

So, what are the reasons TO circumcise? Here is the list:

Religious reasons - as discussed above.

That is all. There really is no good reason to circumcise other that personal preference and religious reasons.

Are there any reasons NOT to circumcise? Consider these:

Leave nature alone - whether you believe God created men with a foreskin, or nature simply evolved this way, there must be some reason men have foreskins. Why change something that God/nature has created?

Sensation and sexual pleasure - the foreskin is filled with nerves, and is therefore extremely sensitive to touch. This enhances sexual pleasure.

Protects the glans (head) of the ***** - the glans is another highly sensitive area. The foreskin protects the glans from constant rubbing and chaffing against clothing that can desensitize it over the years. This preserves sexual pleasure.

Ethical issues - there are groups of people worldwide, including medical societies, that oppose routine circumcision because they feel it is unethical for a parent to decide to alter the ***** of their child without the child's consent. Parents who are deciding whether or not to circumcise their son may wish to consider the impact this may have in the future if the child decides they wish they were not circumcised.
So, when making this decision, the first thing to ask yourself is this - "Do I have any good reason to circumcise my baby?" If your answer is for religious reasons, then follow your faith. If not, and you can't think of any other significant reason other than just "because", then consider the above information as you make your decision.

I will keep looking and will be happy to PM you when I get back. I just do not think people should be mindless sheep blindly following the others over the cliff. Some of the reasons people have thier sons circ'd floor me. To make him aesthetically pleasing or to increase the chance he will have oral sex? OMG, I am just shocked that anyone would reallly consider such things in deciding whether or not to amputate part of thier baby.

 

[BuckNaked]

There is no need for you to be a condescending jerk.

Now, now, play nice.

There is nothing condescending about pointing out that a physiological fact is not something that is open to opinion.

I will be happy to send it to you when I get home.I am in Aruba right now so it will be a while.

Please do - I look forward to seeing you provide something that disputes a physiological fact.

Bucknaked-please see Dr.Sears article with plenty of reasons Not to circ.

Why? I have my own ped, and he explained the pros and cons to me, then recommended circumcision. I'm perfectly fine with our decision, and have no reason to trust someone I've never met that is on a zealous mission to control other people's decisions regarding their children.

So, what are the reasons TO circumcise? Here is the list:

Religious reasons - as discussed above.

That is all. There really is no good reason to circumcise other that personal preference and religious reasons.

Nothing but your opinion, based on the opinion of Dr. Sears. You are free to go with his opinion, and I was free to go with my ped, whose opinion differed from yours.

I just do not think people should be mindless sheep blindly following the others over the cliff.

You have the nerve to call me a condescending jerk, and then post this?

There is nothing quite so condescending as telling everyone that disagrees with you that they are "mindless sheep".

 

[Tinijocaro]

Since the American Academy of Pediatrics says that any medical benefits are not sufficient to recommend circumcision, how do you feel about the fact that your pediatrician gives advice that directly counters what his governing body says?

 

[CanBeGrumpy]

I'll never understand why this is such a HUGE issue! Seems to me that most men are just glad to HAVE a *****, and don't really give a hoot about the foreskin! Before I had my first son, I asked all the men I knew what they prefer, and the circ'd ones preferred circumcision, the uncirc'd ones didn't have a preference. After gathering the facts, I pretty much left the final decision to my Dh since he has "insider info" on the whole pen*s issue. We circ'd both boys, but if I had a baby today I probably wouldn't do it. And that's that. I have too much else in life to worry about---I don't have any room to feel guilt over circ'ing the boys. At the time it seemed like the best decision (and I did a LOT of fact-finding) and I hope my sons will realize that we made that decision with their best interests at heart, not with the desire to mutilate them or deprive them of sexual function.

 

[BuckNaked]

Since the American Academy of Pediatrics says that any medical benefits are not sufficient to recommend circumcision, how do you feel about the fact that your pediatrician gives advice that directly counters what his governing body says?

My son was circumcised prior to the current AAP policy statement. Which, though you choose to ignore it, says that parents should do what is in the best interest of their child.

Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In circumstances in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child.

Funny how you ignore that part...

 

[Tinijocaro]

canbegrumpy-

Don't you think it's pretty obvious that the circ'd guys you asked would prefer the circ'd ***** since they never had an intact one, how could they possibly know? Since an intact guy knows what kinds of sensations and pleasure his foreskin gives him, he can at least imagine what it would be like without those sensations. I think your dh has "insider info" on circ'd *****es only, he's never experienced his whole *****.

I think all parents make these decision with their child's best interests at heart. I don't think anyone wants you or any other parent to feel guilt. For me, I'd just like to see non-medical circumcision end. I have no desire to make others feel bad. I think it's great when a parent can make a decision, re-evaluate it down the road, and rather than defend that decision to the end, can come to a different conclusion.

 

[HomeSweetDisney]

Circumsision seems to be the social "norm" doesn't it though? Most of the guys I know (not saying I've seen their nether areas, just that it has come up in conversation) said that when they were growing up any guys that weren't circ'd got made fun of. I'm not saying it's right and I wouldn't criticize anyone who decided against the procedure, but let's face facts: Most guys, especially around junior high/high school age, have very delicate egos. If I had sons, I wouldn't want them to be teased over something that could be easily removed when they are infants. My old high school boyfriend had a friend who got made fun of constantly in the locker room because they said his stuff looked "gross." Lame, I know But boys will be boys. Anyway, he hated not being circ'd and begged his parents to let him get the procedure but they refused because they didn't believe it was necessary. Once again, I wouldn't dog anyone who didn't get their son circ'd but if I have sons I plan on doing it. Just because I know how cruel kids can be to one another (and when you're a teenage they can really bring you down!) and if it is a fairly harmless procedure and I can save them a little bit of embarassment in the future, I'd do it. But I definitely think parents should make the decision for what they think is right for their son, not anyone else.

ETA: My dad is a physician and he has told me that there are medical benefits to being circ'd. Obviously, he didn't make that up on his own and there are studies out there to back that up. And even if there was the slightest chance that having my son circ'd could benefit his health, I would do it. That's just me though.

 

[JennyMominRI]

Circumsision seems to be the social "norm" doesn't it though? Most of the guys I know (not saying I've seen their nether areas, just that it has come up in conversation) said that when they were growing up any guys that weren't circ'd got made fun of. I'm not saying it's right and I wouldn't criticize anyone who decided against the procedure, but let's face facts: Most guys, especially around junior high/high school age, have very delicate egos. If I had sons, I wouldn't want them to be teased over something that could be easily removed when they are infants. My old high school boyfriend had a friend who got made fun of constantly in the locker room because they said his stuff looked "gross." Lame, I know But boys will be boys. Anyway, he hated not being circ'd and begged his parents to let him get the procedure but they refused because they didn't believe it was necessary. Once again, I wouldn't dog anyone who didn't get their son circ'd but if I have sons I plan on doing it. Just because I know how cruel kids can be to one another (and when you're a teenage they can really being you down!) and if it is a fairly harmless procedure and I can save them a little bit of embarassment in the future, I'd do it. But I definitely think parents should make the decision for what they think is right for their son, not anyone else.

It's becoming less the norm though..I believe current stats show something like 40% of newborns being left intact... I also believe certain areas of the US have less circumcisions than others..My 11 year old DS in uncirced..My oldest is circed...The younger son has never had a problem, nor has anyone ever teased him about it

 

[HomeSweetDisney]

It's becoming less the norm though..I believe current stats show something like 40% of newborns being left intact... I also believe certain areas of the US have less circumcisions than others..My 11 year old DS in uncirced..My oldest is circed...The younger son has never had a problem, nor has anyone ever teased him about it

Well that's good then I was just sharing my thoughts on the subject and the experiences of the guys I know.

 

[JennyMominRI]

Well that's good then I was just sharing my thoughts on the subject and the experiences of the guys I know.

Well,looking below your avatar,I see you are in Texas... I'm pretty sure Texas is one of the areas with higher rates of circumcisions

 

[HomeSweetDisney]

Well,looking below your avatar,I see you are in Texas... I'm pretty sure Texas is one of the areas with higher rates of circumcisions

Yup. I went to junior high and high school in other states though. Louisiana and NC. Not sure how they rank. But those were the guys I was referring to. I would hope college aged guys wouldn't seriously make fun of one another for something like that. But who knows I don't make it a point to ask every guy I know if he is circ'd or not (I'd be the creepy girl ) but I know a few that are, including my boyfriend, and only one who isn't. And he voluntarily shared that info after watching a certain episode of Sex And The City.

 

[MickeyMouseGal]

Here are some stats:
http://www.circs.org/reviews/rates/usa.html

 

[Tinijocaro]

My son was circumcised prior to the current AAP policy statement. Which, though you choose to ignore it, says that parents should do what is in the best interest of their child.



Funny how you ignore that part...

The AAP has been not recommending circumcision since 1971- how old is your son? Here's a link to all the AAP's policy statements since 1971.

http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/aap/

Since I didn't directly quote the AAP in my last post, I didn't include the part about parents doing what is in the best interest of the child, but no, I didn't ignore it, if you go back to post #99, I included it there with a question that no one answered.

What other elective surgeries are parents allowed to choose for their child on normal healthy body parts?

 

[JennyMominRI]

Here are some stats:
http://www.circs.org/reviews/rates/usa.html

Thanks

 

[Tinijocaro]

I plan on doing it. Just because I know how cruel kids can be to one another (and when you're a teenage they can really bring you down!) and if it is a fairly harmless procedure and I can save them a little bit of embarassment in the future, I'd do it. But I definitely think parents should make the decision for what they think is right for their son, not anyone else.

ETA: My dad is a physician and he has told me that there are medical benefits to being circ'd. Obviously, he didn't make that up on his own and there are studies out there to back that up. And even if there was the slightest chance that having my son circ'd could benefit his health, I would do it. That's just me though.

The AAP disagrees with your dad, and has for a long time.

As for the teasing thing, surgery to prevent teasing? Come on, that's ridiculous. How can you possibly know what your kid is going to get teased for? Some kids are the teasable kind, others aren't. Some kids will get teased for having red hair, or for being fat, or for being too smart or too dumb. Surgery to appease some ignorant kid in a fictional locker room? The circ rate is dropping rapidly, it's quite near 50%, how do you know it's the intact boys that will be teased? There's lots of information available on the net to kids who do a quick search and they will know that they have all the goods. Frankly, I'd rather my boys be in the "have" group, rather thatn the "have not" group when it comes to their equipment. Remember that some girls will have their first sexual experiences with intact boys- what will they think when they meet up with a circ'd boy? Something's missing. How can you know their reaction? You may circumcise your sons to prevent teasing and he may end up being teased for it (I hope no one is teased) or for something else. I hope you rethink this circ'ing to prevent teasing thing.

 

[Tinijocaro]

to the last poster- I'm sorry if I seemed to jump down your throat. I just get so sick of hearing about parents who think circumciing will prevent their son's from being teased. I realize you were just sharing your experiences.

 

[MickeyMouseGal]

Thanks

I've been picking around on that website. There seem to be some really good medical articles. I'm a medical professional (D.V.M. actually) with some research background and graduate school, and these articles seem to be fairly unbiased. Enjoy.

 

[Tinijocaro]

Here are some stats:
http://www.circs.org/reviews/rates/usa.html

Ed Schoen, whose research is used on that site wrote some lovely circumcision poetry:

http://www.circumstitions.com/Schoens.html

Ed Schoen used to head the AAP's task force on circumcsion, but was removed for being too biased.

Wiswell is also on that site, here is a special quote from him:

"I have some good friends who are obstetricians outside the military, and they look at a foreskin and almost see a $125 price tag on it. Each one is that much money. Heck, if you do 10 a week, that's over $1,000 a week, and they don't take that much time."

Dr.Thomas Wiswell,
quoted in "The Age-Old Question of Circumcision"
by Betsy A. Lehman, Boston Globe, June 22, 1987, p. 43

Not sure this site is very credible.