Circumcision may stop millions of HIV deaths-study

[paigevz]

I responded already about our decision not to circ our boys and the theory my mother had to "make them like everybody else", but I just wanted to say, that one reason I decided not to was because it is not typical to circ in Hispanic culture, and my boys are Hispanic. Following that thought process, I just did some checking into dh's relatives and our friends' experiences as far as health when I was pregnant with my first.

No one in dh's family could remember any of the boys having UTIs.........plenty of the little girls, though. None of my friend's uncirced boys have had UTIs. One friend with circed boys has had 3 in one son and 1 in the other.None of the wives have had cervical cancer in any of our friends' families or ours. My husband never had a UTI, my boys have never had one. I have had one since I've been married, two or three in childhood/teenagerhood. No one has ever had a problem with a child whose foreskin would not retract..........though some do it later than the average. No one has had a child whose foreskin became attached. When I student taught I knew one woman whose circed child's ring fell off and he lost a lot of blood before they got to hospital with him, but he was okay.

Anecdotal to be sure, but since others have mentioned theirs, thought I'd mention my experiences too. This probably encompasses 30 or so uncirced children and the same number (or a bit fewer) of circed.

 

[chobie]

But if a boy is circumcised, it greatly decreases the chances of him ever having such problems. Why not prevent something rather than treat it when a problem arrives? An ounce of prevention... In my practice for example, would rather prevent Parvo rather than treat it, by a long shot.
Also, I would rather have an infant circumcised rather than an older child. A co-worker of mine had to have her son circumcised at 6 years old because of serious UTI's (which was curative, btw), and that poor kid went through hell afterwards. My little infant nephews were nursing and drifting off to sleep within a few minutes of their procedures.

There are just as many stories out there of little boys who have had serious complications, including amputation, from having a circumisicion. There are risks both ways. It did not make sense to me to have cut my son under the rare case that he made need a curative circumsicion. I preferred to cross that bridge if I got there, rather than subject him to risk from a preventive procedure because repeated UTIs seemed less of a serious problem than a botched circumsicion. JMO.

I do think that parents to be should put a little more thought into it rather than just doing it because the dad had it done, but again that is just my opinion.

And I don't beleive that infants don't feel the pain, they just can't tell us. Maybe the procedure itself was painless, but we have no way of knowing if over the next several days they are crying because they have sore members or because of other reasons do we?

 

[JennyMominRI]

There are just as many stories out there of little boys who have had serious complications, including amputation, from having a circumisicion. There are risks both ways. It did not make sense to me to have cut my son under the rare case that he made night a curative circumsicion. I preferred to cross that bridge if I got there, rather than subject him to risk from a preventive procedure because repeated UTIs seemed less of a serious problem than a botched circumsicion. JMO.

I do think that parents to be should put a little more thought into it rather than just doing it because the dad had it done, but again that is just my opinion.

Yeah..My son got an infection from the procedure and the poor baby went through some serious pain for the week or 2 after the procedure

 

[Galahad]

When I was a teenager, I had abdominal surgery. Unbeknown to me, it was standard procedure (with the consent of my parents) to just take out the appendix whenever they were "in the neighborhood". So I had my appendix out as a child without my knowledge or permission. Perhaps I should be upset that I was irreversibly altered without my permission as a child.

And I don't beleive that infants don't feel the pain, they just can't tell us.

They probably do. I guess we'll never know how early they can feel pain though.


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Once that couple of weeks of pain is over, what are we supposing happens to them?

 

[JennyMominRI]

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Once that couple of weeks of pain is over, what are we supposing happens to them?

Wellin Ds case he's none the worse for it now

 

[chobie]

When I was a teenager, I had abdominal surgery. Unbeknown to me, it was standard procedure (with the consent of my parents) to just take out the appendix whenever they were "in the neighborhood". So I had my appendix out as a child without my knowledge or permission. Perhaps I should be upset that I was irreversibly altered without my permission as a child.




They probably do. I guess we'll never know how early they can feel pain though.


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Once that couple of weeks of pain is over, what are we supposing happens to them?

All I'm saying is that there are risks on both sides and parents should be educated. I don't belittle people who had it done to their sons.

When that 2 weeks of pain for circumsized infants is over then what happens? They may or may not get a UTI later in life. Just the same if they don't have the procedure.

 

[Tinijocaro]

OMG Buck, I'm just dying! I can't believe that this has turned into such a circ-us. Ok, that was really bad.

I agree 100% with everything you just said. We chose to circumcise two of our sons. The son we didn't circumcise had a genetic condition and an unusually small ***** so we chose not to have it done in his case. I left the decision to circumcise our boys up to my dh, and he wanted them to have it done for hygiene and asthetic reasons. I don't know if there's any truth to the hygiene thing or not, but I dated a guy who wasn't circumcised, and I constantly had UTI's. I have not had that problem with my dh. Anyhow, my boys won't ever remember being circumcised, and I'm pretty confident that when they are older they'll be glad that it was done.

UTI's are much more common in girls than in boys. When I first started having sex, I used to get UTI's but that stopped after a few of them (UTI's that is)

Many doctors in America still give out old outdated information on how to care for the intact *****. Care is very simple: wash as you would a finger, never force the foreskin to retract because you can cause bleeding, tears, and eventually, scar tissue. This all can open the child up to UTI's because the foreskin is there to keep stuff out. That's why it is fused to the glans during the early years.

I had several doctors give me this bad advice, I ignored it, and my boys both retracted on their own. One at the age of three, and one at 10. Many doctors seem to think there is this magical age when all foreskins should retract by, and if they don't, then they must be removed. I had a doctor tell me that my 7 year old son needed a circumcision because his foreskin didn't retract. She said that if a foreskin doesn't retract by the age of three, then it must be removed. All boys are different and my son retracted at the age of 10. This kind of advice is still out there in great numbers, it contributes to many of the cases you hear of boys who "needed" a circumcision later in life.

 

[Tinijocaro]

When I was a teenager, I had abdominal surgery. Unbeknown to me, it was standard procedure (with the consent of my parents) to just take out the appendix whenever they were "in the neighborhood". So I had my appendix out as a child without my knowledge or permission. Perhaps I should be upset that I was irreversibly altered without my permission as a child.




They probably do. I guess we'll never know how early they can feel pain though.


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Once that couple of weeks of pain is over, what are we supposing happens to them?

What is the purpose of the appendix? I have no idea, I wouldn't have wanted any body parts removed without my permission. It sounds like you are just fine, nothing was affected by it.

I just did a quick search on the purpose of the appendix. Seems to be a bit of debate on that, but most doctors assume that since they don't know what it's purpose is, there is no purpose. Seems pompous to me. The unknown would prevent me from getting mine removed unless there was a problem with it.

No one has to be upset when body parts are removed without permission. I don't think anyone has ever said that. The problem is, many people ARE upset when body parts are removed without their permission. It's not safe any more, especially with the circ rate dropping, to assume that your child will be happy, or pleased with your decision about his body. Who knows?
He may be just fine, or he may be quite ticked. There's lots of information available to kids nowadays that wasn't there years ago.

 

[paigevz]

I had several doctors give me this bad advice, I ignored it, and my boys both retracted on their own. One at the age of three, and one at 10. Many doctors seem to think there is this magical age when all foreskins should retract by, and if they don't, then they must be removed. I had a doctor tell me that my 7 year old son needed a circumcision because his foreskin didn't retract. She said that if a foreskin doesn't retract by the age of three, then it must be removed. All boys are different and my son retracted at the age of 10. This kind of advice is still out there in great numbers, it contributes to many of the cases you hear of boys who "needed" a circumcision later in life.

My son's ped told me the same thing when he was 4. I again questioned relatives and friends...........it seemed to be quite common that it was later rather than early that they could retract................the kicker was that dh says he remembered being 10 or 11..............I switched peds. The new one told me that it would retract when he was ready, just like other bodily functions, you couldn't really say when for each child...............

 

[chobie]

My son's ped told me the same thing when he was 4. I again questioned relatives and friends...........it seemed to be quite common that it was later rather than early that they could retract................the kicker was that dh says he remembered being 10 or 11..............I switched peds. The new one told me that it would retract when he was ready, just like other bodily functions, you couldn't really say when for each child...............

Well doctors are not omnipotent, hence the term "a second opinion." They do have a lot of influence over us. If my doctor had leaned toward circ, recommended or just assumed it was what we would be doing, I may have had it done. I don't know for sure. I just know he said it was mainly cosmetic and so I read some literature on both sides and decided not to do it.

Also we had a friend who had a son first and did not have it done, so we knew someone and that helped open my mind up because up until then I just assumed it was what was done and there was really no choice.

 

[chobie]

Just a small rant:

Every parent who chose not to do this is not a zealot. Every mom who breastfed is not a nazi or an exhibitionist. Every parent who did circ is not a mindless sheep. Every mom who bottlefed is not selfish.

 

[Tinijocaro]

Good point- name-calling really should be avoided- it serves no purpose in a debate/discussion such as this.

 

[becka]

Good point- name-calling really should be avoided- it serves no purpose in a debate/discussion such as this.

Coming from someone who said the mindless sheep comment. Pot...Kettle?

 

[ntsammy5]

OMG Buck, I'm just dying! I can't believe that this has turned into such a circ-us. Ok, that was really bad.

I agree 100% with everything you just said. We chose to circumcise two of our sons. The son we didn't circumcise had a genetic condition and an unusually small ***** so we chose not to have it done in his case. I left the decision to circumcise our boys up to my dh, and he wanted them to have it done for hygiene and asthetic reasons. I don't know if there's any truth to the hygiene thing or not, but I dated a guy who wasn't circumcised, and I constantly had UTI's. I have not had that problem with my dh. Anyhow, my boys won't ever remember being circumcised, and I'm pretty confident that when they are older they'll be glad that it was done.

You know, I'm kind of glad my kids are all in their 20s and 30s so I don't have to worry about this stuff (but grand sons have had it done). Things were a lot simpler in my day. I do like your cir-cus comment though. LMAO.

 

[Tinijocaro]

Coming from someone who said the mindless sheep comment. Pot...Kettle?

Sorry- you've got the wrong person. I don't do name-calling.

 

[MickeyMouseGal]

There are just as many stories out there of little boys who have had serious complicationsfrom having a circumisicion.

I agree. I do believe that there is a slight risk. Just as there is a risk to vaccines, but I also believe that the benefit outweighs the risk.

And I don't beleive that infants don't feel the pain, they just can't tell us. Maybe the procedure itself was painless, but we have no way of knowing if over the next several days they are crying because they have sore members or because of other reasons do we?

I believe there may be some degree of pain. I do, however believe that they don't register pain in the same way as adults and older children do. I think both sides can agree that the procedure is more difficult for an adult or older child, not only because of more acute central nervous system development but also because they know what is happening and will remember the procedure. Should I ever have a son, my DH and I will recommend some kind of pain management for the procedure. I did lean that from this thread.

 

[becka]

Sorry- you've got the wrong person. I don't do name-calling.

My apologies. I got you confused with another poster. I should have verified who it was before I posted.

 

[dcentity2000]

Just to make my stance absolutely clear, I do NOT support circumcision if not REQUIRED. I would like to give the individual the choice to have it done in later life rather than to decide for them. Pre-emptive strike arguments don't worry me too much, as the same notion applied to tonsils a little while back and in the long run it just didn't work out; this powers a certain cynicism on my part.



Rich::

 

[chobie]

I agree. I do believe that there is a slight risk. Just as there is a risk to vaccines, but I also believe that the benefit outweighs the risk.



I believe there may be some degree of pain. I do, however believe that they don't register pain in the same way as adults and older children do. I think both sides can agree that the procedure is more difficult for an adult or older child, not only because of more acute central nervous system development but also because they know what is happening and will remember the procedure. Should I ever have a son, my DH and I will recommend some kind of pain management for the procedure. I did lean that from this thread.

Well does come down to deciding which risks youwant to take and there is no clear medical opinion on that just opinions based on what that particular doctor thinks is the greater risk. And the diaseses we vaccinate against cause a lot more damage than a UTI and used to kill tens of thousands of people. Not to many men have died, or even gotten, penile cancer and I don't think anyone has ever died from a UTI.

As to newborns not registering pain like adults and older children do, I agree, but I think they feel it more not less. Gas pain makes them shriek with agony.

Also up until a few years ago, the didn't even think the procedure caused pain but now they do.

Of course the bottom line is, we really don't know what they think or feel. So, its true that should an older male need the procedure they will remember it (which is rare for it to be needed) but they at least can say "give me a ****** percocet!"

 

[MickeyMouseGal]

Well, we're going to have to agree to disagree. I've repeated myself so many times on this thread regarding the benefits that I'm not going to post them again. However I will add that people do die from UTI's.

I'm not going to start into the pain perception topic, as I feel that will quickly dissolve into a question as to 'when does pain perception begin?'. Opening that can of worms will stir the whole 'pain during abortion' debate and I'm not going there.