Circumcision may stop millions of HIV deaths-study

[RNMOM]

I gotta put my 2cents in here too.

I have two sons I chose not to circumcise. I worked in surgery and feel it is cruel what they do when they circumcise. The plastibels are too easily put on too far and the skin stretched.

I also had TWO women I was friends with who's sons had complications from it when done at birth. One baby had to be transfused and skin grafts taked from his thigh to cover the mess the doctor made.

When researching my decision, I had gotten a "Mother Earth News" magazine ( I think that was the name) and they discussed it at length. They suggested having a Moyel (sp) who is a specially trained person who performs circs for Jewish babies. Apparently it is possible to hire them for gentile babies and a lot of hospitals will allow them to do it there. I understand they do not remove as much skin and have a much gentler technique.

By the way. I discussed this with my Peds doctor who had 7 sons. He said he did his first two but when he had to begin doing them himself and saw the pain it caused, he decided not to recommend it. He told me he used a block on the babies he had to circ.

So, I asked my 19 and 21 year old sons if they have ever been teased and they both looked at me like I had 2 heads. They showered in school, went on camp outs and swimming in day care, etc. and no one ever commented on it. So, I feel I made the right decision.

 

[Tinijocaro]

My sons are 7 and 11 and neither has been teased to this point. Once, when older ds was about 4, he was swimming in a kiddie pool naked with his two boy cousins, both were circ'd. The one cousin looked at ds' ***** and said "Why is his so big?" Removing the double-layered foreskin also removes some length and girth.

 

[JennyMominRI]

I gotta put my 2cents in here too.

I

. Apparently it is possible to hire them for gentile babies and a lot of hospitals will allow them to do it there. I understand they do not remove as much skin and have a much gentler technique.

.
.

Mohels use a different clamp..The Magen clamp as opposed to the gomco clamp used in RICS

This talks about both clamps and another clamp used in the US,The Plastibell..
http://www.circlist.com/instrstechs/gomcomogen.html

 

[MickeyMouseGal]

http://www.circumstitions.com/Schoens.html

Ed Schoen used to head the AAP's task force on circumcsion, but was removed for being too biased.

Not sure this site is very credible.

There is both pro and con research on the site I provided. It's the most unbiased I've seen so far. From their homepage: "Welcome to Circs.org. This site aims to provide unbiased information and reference materials relating to circumcision." They have an area devoted to anti-circ and pro-circ as well as medical, peer reviewed articles.
http://www.circs.org/library/index.html

I really don't think I'm going to find too many unbiased opinions on a site entitled 'circumstitions'. (edit) Nope... I didn't.

 

[Tinijocaro]

Jenny- just a heads up- circlist is a known site f people who rather enjoy the whole idea of boys getting circumcised. It doesn't take too many clicks in to the site to realize that. Not a site you want to spend too much time at. I realize that these people are not the norm when it comes to circumcision.

Here is some more information on the subject of circumcision fetish:

http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/fetish.html

 

[Tinijocaro]

There is both pro and con research on the site I provided. It's the most unbiased I've seen so far. From their homepage: "Welcome to Circs.org. This site aims to provide unbiased information and reference materials relating to circumcision." They have an area devoted to anti-circ and pro-circ as well as medical, peer reviewed articles.
http://www.circs.org/library/index.html

To use a link entitled "cirucmstitions" as an example of a credible site is a bit puzzling IMO.

Circumstitions is definitely an anti-circ site. I don't deny that, but his poems were published in the American Journal of Diseases in Children.

I guess I shouldn't throw your whole site out because of two looney birds, but it certainly makes it a bit less credible in my eyes. I don't think just because a site claims to be non-biased, that it IS non-biased. I think they would like unassuming parents to believe that's what it is, but they are clearly pro-circ. Just look a bit more closely at their 'anti-circ' page". It's pro-circ. There is nothing anti-circ about it. They want you to believe they are giving you both sides. If it were truly non-biased, there would be articles on complications of circumcision, and on the benefits of having a foreskin. There are no such articles. They fooled you by saying they are non-biased, when in fact, they are very pro-circ. I didn't read the whole site, so if I missed a section that is truly anti-circ, let me know.

 

[BuckNaked]

The AAP has been not recommending circumcision since 1971- how old is your son? Here's a link to all the AAP's policy statements since 1971.

http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/aap/

My son is 10, and thanks for the links. Doesn't change my mind in the least. Our ped went over the pros and cons, recommended that we have the circ done, we did, and I don't regret it in the least.


Oh, and to answer your other question, the AAP is not the governing body of pediatrics.

What other elective surgeries are parents allowed to choose for their child on normal healthy body parts?

I don't know, and I don't really care. But we are allowed to choose this one, and we did. For us, the potential benefits outweighed the risks, and if I had another son tomorrow, I'd make the same choice. While I don't expect you to agree, I do expect you to acknowledge that we have the right to choose what we think is best for our children.

 

[snowwite]

http://www.circumstitions.com/HIV.html
Circumcision and HIV infection: review of
the literature and meta-analysis
R. S. Van Howe MD FAAP
Department of Pediatrics, Marshfield Clinic, Lakeland Center, USA
Summary: Thirty-five articles and a number of abstracts have been published in the medical literature looking at the relationship between male circumcision and HIV infection. Study designs have included geographical analysis, studies of high risk patients, partner studies and random population surveys. Most of the studies have been conducted in Africa. A meta-analysis was performed on the 29 published articles where data were available. When the raw data are combined, a man with a circumcised ***** is at greater risk of acquiring and transmitting HIV than a man with a non-circumcised ***** (odds ratio (OR)=1.06, 95% confidence interval (CI)=1.01-1.12). Based on the studies published to date, recommending routine circumcision as a prophylactic measure to prevent HIV infection in Africa, or elsewhere, is scientifically unfounded.


http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2005/pr32/en/
Link to world health article which states behaviours need to change. Teach your child abstinence or the common sense to use a condom if he cannot be abstinate. My problem with your idea here is that you want to do circ to prevent HIV, so do you do prophylactic mastectomies if you have a daughter? I mean it could prevent cancer? What aboutremoving other parts "just in case"?Hard as I try my brain cannot grasp your logic. What I see here are parents angry at me and other mothers who chose to keep our boys intact. What I hear in the anger is GUILT!!!!

 

[BuckNaked]

http://www.circumstitions.com/HIV.html

Ah, truly unbiased site...

I think I'll stick with believing the World Health Organization over a web site called "Circumstitions"

 

[snowwite]

Ah, truly unbiased site...

I think I'll stick with believing the World Health Organization over a web site called "Circumstitions"

The world is full of mindless sheep. Baa

 

[BuckNaked]

The world is full of mindless sheep. Baa

Wait, it can't be...someone that said I was condescending is telling everyone that disagrees with them that they are mindless sheep?

Priceless!!

 

[BuckNaked]

I think I've found my favorite "scientific fact" from the circumstitions site:

all factors affecting HIV transmission. Islam allows polygamy, which makes extramarital sex less likely, just by exhaustion.

 

[Tinijocaro]

Ah, truly unbiased site...

I think I'll stick with believing the World Health Organization over a web site called "Circumstitions"

Is it the name of the site that bugs you or the contents? I think we've already agreed that circumstitions is an anti-circ site. I'd much prefer a site that is upfront about it rather than a site saying they are unbiased when they clearly are not.

 

[becka]

What about parents who pierce thier daughters ears when they are babies? Granted we are talking about another body part but that causes pain as well and is done without the consent of the child. And in the case of piercings there is no medical benefit at all. There are minimal medical benefits and a circ does help prevent some issues that could lead to a circ at a later age.

Really this is NOT child abuse and does not belong in the same category. This should be a decision for each family between Mom, Dad and the doctors. I don't believe in piercing little girls ears when they are babies but that does not mean that I decry the practice and demand that no one else does it either. Whether some of you like it or not circ's are legal here in the U.S. and many of us have made that choice based on our own beliefs, circumstances and research. I will do what is best for MY family and you can do what is best for YOUR family.

Before there is any more barnyard name-calling would one of the anti-circ people please respond to my question. Other than it is obviously a different body part what is the difference?

Also, just because the AAP does say there are not significant medical benefits that does not mean their are no medical benefits just that as a group the majority opinion is that the risks of circ's outweight the medical benefits in most cases.

 

[nuke]

What other elective surgeries are parents allowed to choose for their child on normal healthy body parts?

Here's one. My friend has a son that was born with two of his toes fused together. The doc told them he would be fine with them that way and that he wouldn't walk different or anything. Or they could choose to have them separated. The choose the surgery. Was that child abuse as well?

 

[Tinijocaro]

Before there is any more barnyard name-calling would one of the anti-circ people please respond to my question. Other than it is obviously a different body part what is the difference?

Also, just because the AAP does say there are not significant medical benefits that does not mean their are no medical benefits just that as a group the majority opinion is that the risks of circ's outweight the medical benefits in most cases.

Ear piercing, although none of my kids have theirs pierced, does not REMOVE any parts of the body. It does not change the function in any way of the ear lobe (does an ear lobe have a function?), where removing the foreskin DOES alter the function- yes, the ***** still works, but it works somewhat differently.

 

[CanBeGrumpy]

**************

canbegrumpy-

Don't you think it's pretty obvious that the circ'd guys you asked would prefer the circ'd ***** since they never had an intact one, how could they possibly know? Since an intact guy knows what kinds of sensations and pleasure his foreskin gives him, he can at least imagine what it would be like without those sensations. I think your dh has "insider info" on circ'd *****es only, he's never experienced his whole *****.


What I meant is that the circ'd men I talked to prefer the "look" of the circ'd pen*s. Also, what do men who have been circ'd as adults say about the pleasure factor? Is it THAT much different? Just curious, really, since it seems circ'd guys sure do get a lot of pleasure from sex. How much better is it with an intact member?

I think all parents make these decision with their child's best interests at heart. I don't think anyone wants you or any other parent to feel guilt. For me, I'd just like to see non-medical circumcision end. I have no desire to make others feel bad. I think it's great when a parent can make a decision, re-evaluate it down the road, and rather than defend that decision to the end, can come to a different conclusion.

This is one decison that can't easily be reversed (although I came across a book in the parenting section of the bookstore once that gave instructions on how to uncircumcize one's self. It involved hanging small weights off the remainder of the foreskin.I still don't know why that book was in the *parenting* section!) I do think my sons will be just fine with their circ'd pen*ses, and they were circ'd with pain relief, so hopefully they weren't that traumatized. My Dh has no regrets and would probably want to circ another son if we had one, so that fact also lends me to believe that it won't be a big deal to our sons.

 

[Tinijocaro]

Here's one. My friend has a son that was born with two of his toes fused together. The doc told them he would be fine with them that way and that he wouldn't walk different or anything. Or they could choose to have them separated. The choose the surgery. Was that child abuse as well?

Webbed toes are not normal, they are a birth defect. A foreskin is found on every male in the world at birth. It is normal. A male born without a foreskin has a birth defect called aposthia.

If the surgery to separate the toes altered the function of the foot in any negative way, then I wouldn't have the surgery. Since I don't think it alters the function, I would probably consider it. I have not referred to circumcision as child abuse, I'm not sure why you are. Do you consider it to be child abuse?

 

[Pigeon]

would one of the anti-circ people please respond to my question. Other than it is obviously a different body part what is the difference?

I'd be happy to reply. I think it is wrong to pierce a child's ears. It causes the child pain, serves no useful purpose and can have complications. If the child grows up and later wants to have her/his own ears pierced, that is up to them.

Obviously, there is a matter of degree. Holes will sometimes close up. Foreskins will not grow back.

 

[VSL]

I question the need for any "routine" tests ie. blood tests,urinalysis etc. I ask the doctor what condition he is testing for,the liklihood that my child or me has it and what if anything the treatment plan will be if anything.If the response is that it is a routine test I decline. If there are symptoms or family history or the physician presents information that convinces me it is necessary for my family member we proceed.

We don't have routine tests over here in the UK apart from
- smear tests (for cervical cancer) after age 20-ish
- women at risk of breast cancer get mamograms (sp?) after a certain age
etc.

We don't have any unnecessary routine tests done in the UK.
And, like I said before, there's no such thing is anyone here being circumcised just for the sake of it (it's generally only done if the male is Jewish or it is medically necessary) - this part applies to Europe in general as well (not sure if they have routine/yearly tests though).

About the ear-piercing thing...
My mother pierced my ears when I was young, twice (once as a baby, and again at about 5yrs). I will not be doing that to any children I have - my mother is weird though (schizophrenogenic) and I have very different values to her.
I do think it's comparable to routine circumcision in the sense that both are truly unnecessary. If there is any medical benefit to being circ'd, I imagine that it is related to overall lifestyle factors (in the same way that red wine/green tea/dark chocolate/etc. have been shown to be beneficial - the people that are generally consuming those things are healthier overall).

And as far as boys making fun of eachother in the locker room - over here if any boy started making fun of another because of their 'private parts', it would be turned right around with the other boys asking, 'why were you looking at that?!'.