Churches venture into AIDS activism at home

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RickinNYC said:
Because 2funny/hokie is absolutely threatened more by homosexuality than by anything else. Simple enough.

but away from him/them - don't you think that for a lot of the religious right, they turn a blind eye to divorce and adultery because they or their voters have committed or do commit those sins. For example Newt Gingrich is on marriage #3.

yes i know i'm hijacking but I think God will forgive me even if you all don't ;)
 
scubamouse said:
ok instead of shellfish and pork, why aren't sins of adultery and divorce condemned with equal vigor along w/homosexuality? I just don't understand why those 'sins' aren't condemned equally.

Because the invasion of the bedroom is only necessary for this sin. Wouldn't want to look into the sex lives of the heterosexuals in the church.... noooooo.

Where's that see, hear, speak no evil smilie when you need it.
 
scubamouse said:
but away from him/them - don't you think that for a lot of the religious right, they turn a blind eye to divorce and adultery because they or their voters have committed or do commit those sins. For example Newt Gingrich is on marriage #3.

yes i know i'm hijacking but I think God will forgive me even if you all don't ;)

Exactly correct!

But I don't attribute this sentiment to the religious right because that's a generalization and not all feel that way. I attribute it to a small faction within that group that are over the top.
 
RickinNYC said:
Exactly correct!

But I don't attribute this sentiment to the religious right because that's a generalization and not all feel that way. I attribute it to a small faction within that group that are over the top.

you're absolutely right - i'm thinking about that group that use homosexuality as a wedge issue to bring out the base. I doubt you'd see that same group looking for a constitutional ban on plain old adultery.
 

scubamouse said:
you're absolutely right - i'm thinking about that group that use homosexuality as a wedge issue to bring out the base. I doubt you'd see that same group looking for a constitutional ban on plain old adultery.
No, no, no, adultry is not always a constant, perpetual sin. That is why it is different. :earboy2:
 
scubamouse said:
I doubt you'd see that same group looking for a constitutional ban on plain old adultery.

Ding ding! Give the kid a prize!

Can you only imagine???
 
simpilotswife said:
I notice that neither of the "anti-homosexual lifestyle" Christians on these thread are responding to the questions about what makes homosexuality so bad.

I think we all have it wrong. I think God put gay people on this Earth for a reason. God's way of saying "slow down on the reproduction, dude, I didn't make this planet big enough for a trillion people, 'kay ?"
 
"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

2 Timothy 4:3

To continue this discussion would only be casting pearls before swine.

But the fact remains that many of these same Christians you criticize here that condemn homosexuality will be the ones found in Saddleback and Willowcreek reaching out to those with AIDS/HIV. Just wanted to bring the thread back to the orginial topic.
 
yeartolate said:
I think we all have it wrong. I think God put gay people on this Earth for a reason. God's way of saying "slow down on the reproduction, dude, I didn't make this planet big enough for a trillion people, 'kay ?"

Hey I like that! I'm God's stop gap!

Think the tag fair will give that one to me?
 
2funny2c said:
But the fact remains that many of these same Christians you criticize here that condemn homosexuality will be the ones found in Saddleback and Willowcreek reaching out to those with AIDS/HIV. Just wanted to bring the thread back to the orginial topic.


Can't speak for anyone else, but frankly, if I were ever in the position of having to receive that kind of care due to AIDS, I would much, MUCH rather have someone by my side that I knew for a fact hated me and not someone who was secretly and furtively condemning me to the depths of hell. I prefer honesty over hidden disgust.
 
RickinNYC said:
Hey I like that! I'm God's stop gap!

Think the tag fair will give that one to me?

I will watch and wait. ;) :rotfl2:
 
2funny2c said:
"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

2 Timothy 4:3

To continue this discussion would only be casting pearls before swine.

But the fact remains that many of these same Christians you criticize here that condemn homosexuality will be the ones found in Saddleback and Willowcreek reaching out to those with AIDS/HIV. Just wanted to bring the thread back to the orginial topic.

Hmmm I can quote scripture too, let's see what HE thinks about being critical and hateful:

All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
[size=-1]Matthew 7:1[/size]

BTW, this same principle is the cornerstone of at least 8 of the worlds religions, including Islam:

No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself.
[size=-1]Sunnah[/size]

And Judaism:

What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellowman. This is the entire Law; all the rest is commentary.
[size=-1]Talmud, Shabbat 3id[/size]

So basically, "Don't Judge Each Other, but rather Respect Each Other and Be Nice to Each Other" is what religion is suppossed to be about.
 
Chuck S said:
Hmmm I can quite scripture too, let's see what HE thinks about being critical and hateful:

All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
[size=-1]Matthew 7:1[/size]
If I was a homosexual, and other Christians called me a sinner, they would be well within their right to do so.

chuck s said:
So basically, "Don't Judge, Respect Each other and Be Nice to Each Other" is what religion is suppossed to be about.
And this statement is why you and I will not be able to have a continuing conversation on topics such as these, b/c we are coming from 2 totally different perspectives. One Biblical, and one not.
 
Back to the article...

The “Disturbing Voices” initiative, led by best-selling author and megachurch pastor Rick Warren and his wife, Kay Warren, represents a shift among evangelicals. Many sidestepped the U.S. health crisis because of its association with homosexuality even as they made AIDS part of their missions in Africa and other places where the disease disproportionately affects women and children.

Once again it's great that this is finally getting attention here in America. Likely not to have as much as the membership drive aspect that the help in Africa is coupled with as well.
 
hokiefan33 said:
If I was a homosexual, and other Christians called me a sinner, they would be well within their right to do so.


And this statement is why you and I will not be able to have a continuing conversation on topics such as these, b/c we are coming from 2 totally different perspectives. One Biblical, and one not.

Point 1. Ok. so you're a sinner.

Point 2. Interesting. So you really don't believe that religion should teach one another to be nice to one another. How sad.
 
hokiefan33 said:
And this statement is why you and I will not be able to have a continuing conversation on topics such as these, b/c we are coming from 2 totally different perspectives. One Biblical, and one not.

Again, please show me in the Bble where it says that one sin is greater than any other, I'll be happy to show you where the Bible also contradicts that. And show me where it says that churches should decide which sins they publicaly criticize. Isn't "Let ye who is without sin cast the first stone" a Biblical perspective?
 
Chuck S said:
Again, please show me in the Bble where it says that one sin is greater than any other, I'll be happy to show you where the Bible also contradicts that. And show me where it says that churches should decide which sins they publicaly criticize. Isn't "Let ye who is without sin cast the first stone" a Biblical perspective?


Some windows get aimed at a lot more than others.....
 
This blog entry seems apropos Link
Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection (Catechism of the Catholic Church, #2357-2359).


What you've just read is the official teaching of the Catholic Church on homosexuality. Believe it or not, the Church's teaching does go beyond #2357, although it would seem that most Catholics -- including the very authors of the Catechism -- have forgotten #2358-2359. But then again, can you say that these have been forgotten when they were never received in the first place? But I think it's even more clear that the Church has paid no attention to the latter part of its teaching on homosexuality now that the Church is even spitting in the faces of homosexual persons who have followed the Church's teaching on chastity.

The Church's teaching in #2358-2359 is similar to the "listening process" called for but never implemented in the Anglican Communion, or the supposed full welcome given to homosexuals in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. Empty words. That's all they are. Most of the provinces of the Anglican Communion haven't listened to a single homosexual person, even while expecting those who have listened to forget what they heard. The Evangelical Lutheran Church is not opening its institutions to welcome homosexuals. And the Catholic Church isn't accepting homosexuals with respect, compassion, and sensitivity.

But I want you to imagine for a moment what the world might look like if the Catholic Church paid half as much attention to the latter part of the Catechism's teaching on homosexuality as it does to the former part. Instead of a document further restricting the ways in which even celibate homosexuals can participate in the life of the Church, maybe we would be seeing a document that condemns state-sponsored execution of homosexuals in nations where the Church has established an active missionary presence. Or maybe we would be seeing a condemnation of Poland's Soviet-style persecution of homosexuals, an exhortation for Poland to rise above the kind of totalitarian mentality imposed upon it for so long by the Soviet Union.

In the past thirty years, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has published four major documents related to the Church's teaching on the disordered nature of homosexuality and the immoral nature of homosexual affection, three of which were promulgated under the pontificate of the late Pope John Paul II and under the direction of Joseph Ratzinger, then the prefect of that Congregation. In that thirty years, can you guess how many documents have been issued related to the latter half of the Catechism's teachings? If you guessed none, you're almost a winner. In the interest of full disclosure, I should point out that H.H. Ratzinger did discuss the subject of violence against homosexuals in two paragraphs of a 1986 document, ultimately concluding that we bring it upon ourselves:



It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church's pastors wherever it occurs. It reveals a kind of disregard for others which endangers the most fundamental principles of a healthy society. The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in word, in action and in law.

But the proper reaction to crimes committed against homosexual persons should not be to claim that the homosexual condition is not disordered. When such a claim is made and when homosexual activity is consequently condoned, or when civil legislation is introduced to protect behavior to which no one has any conceivable right, neither the Church not society at large should be surprised when other distorted notions and practices gain ground, and irrational and violent reactions increase (Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons, #10, emphasis mine).


So what am I getting at? It's simple, really. Will the Catholic Church's leadership ever practice what it preaches? While expecting us to obey steadfastly the commandments of the Catechism, why didn't Pope John Paul II do anything to further #2358-2359, and why isn't Pope Benedict XVI doing anything now? Why haven't they been speaking out against state-sponsored execution of homosexuals and other acts of violence committed against us throughout the world? Why can they find the courage to condemn us as Pontius Pilate might, but not find the courage to protect and help us as Christ certainly would? Why do they stand as lords and judges over us, when they do not stand in solidarity with us as Christ commanded? What kind of shepherds are they who beat us with their crosiers, then leave us for the goats to devour?

I want you to forget for a moment that you disagree with me over Catechism #2357, and I want you to imagine with me -- imagine what the world might look like if the Church's leadership consistently applied the fullness of its teaching on homosexuality. Now, isn't it a shame that we'll never see that happen?
 
eclectics said:
Some windows get aimed at a lot more than others.....

Isn't that the truth.

I can't help but to see the acts of these large scale churches as a good thing. Even those that are usually against organized religion (like me) have to be give props for being willing to spend their time and their congregations money to help something like HIV.
 
It is good to see religion used as a tool rather than a weapon. :goodvibes
 
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