Child using personal ECV issue

Unfortunately they do not make child sized scooters(I searched and asked 3 different vendor's and they say there are not any.) So the doctors suggest the smaller adult models or travel models. My son's scooter is an adult one (a smaller adult one) with the seat at the lowest setting. It also has a big metal container that is attached to the floorboard so his feet sit flat. The biggest difference is there is no RENT ME!! sign anywhere on it ;) Since children grow fairly quickly he will grow into this scooter and eventually not need anything for his feet However even then he will still be under 18 driving a scooter.

Okay, so I am dense!

It still seems (based on this post and others) that it should be fairly clear to see if someone is driving a rental versus a personal ECV.
 
ADA requirements do give a little wiggle room to the establishment -

http://www.ada.gov/opdmd.htm

"whether legitimate safety requirements (such as limiting speed to the pace of pedestrian traffic or prohibiting use on escalators) can be established to permit the safe operation of the OPDMD in the specific facility;"

Disney could state that an ECV has an upper speed limit that is too fast for pedestrian traffic and that a small child does not have the maturity to handle that speed. They would have to be able to prove that this is the situation though - they can't just say so. Sort of like the Segway problem, IMO.

So they have the right to set limits and deny some things, but they have to have a foundation of proof to stand on.
 
ADA requirements do give a little wiggle room to the establishment -

http://www.ada.gov/opdmd.htm

"whether legitimate safety requirements (such as limiting speed to the pace of pedestrian traffic or prohibiting use on escalators) can be established to permit the safe operation of the OPDMD in the specific facility;"

Disney could state that an ECV has an upper speed limit that is too fast for pedestrian traffic and that a small child does not have the maturity to handle that speed. They would have to be able to prove that this is the situation though - they can't just say so. Sort of like the Segway problem, IMO.

So they have the right to set limits and deny some things, but they have to have a foundation of proof to stand on.
Yes - they would have to have some proof.

They could stop someone who was going too fast and ask them to turn the speed down (all ECVs and power wheelchairs have some way to lower the top speed).

But, the OP said he was stopped for just using it.
 
Yes - they would have to have some proof.

They could stop someone who was going too fast and ask them to turn the speed down (all ECVs and power wheelchairs have some way to lower the top speed).

But, the OP said he was stopped for just using it.

But since the age of the child seems to be the problem, it's not just about turning down the speed, it's that a child of that age does not have the maturity to handle a very heavy, potentially dangerous machine. That's why the child has been stopped, why there is an age limit on rentals, etc. Disney does not have to first ask the child to slow down, they just have to show proof that children of a certain age (minors) cannot handle a scooter. That's what they were able to do with Segways. They didn't have to have a dozen accidents in the park first.

Just because a scooter is a 'medical prescription' does not mean it is allowed everywhere. There's the safety issue, of course, as there is with certain types of oxygen containers on planes, (or there were, IIRC) and many other examples like larger service animals, gas powered mobility devices and so on. Also, just because an adult is allowed to use something doesn't always make it ok for a child to use the same thing. There's a level of common sense that must be considered, with a consideration for the entire Disney-going population.

I think the day by day assessment was fair practice - what will Disney do if a bunch of underage kids show up in scooters because their parents don't want to push a stroller? ADA does not allow a business to ask for proof of disability.
 

I did not hear from Disney today, but had requested they not call today as my son had his imaging study appointment.
I do think that a main issue is that there is no written policy, so that is why the CM's fall back to the info they know which is the policy for the rental scooters. Most scooters do have a speed control on them. My son is so cautious that I have to tell him to turn it up a bit because I can't walk that slow:laughing: He may only be 8, but since he uses his scooter at school everyday, he knows how to handle the scooter and can get overly cautious because "people walk in front of me and not look"
The Park Duty Manager I spoke with did talk about age and experience and that younger children may not have enough experience. However, most of the child ECV drivers will have driven them much longer than the adults who have rented them because they are their daily mobility device(and unless parents wish to purchase an ECV so that they don't have to push their child, I don't see that there will be a huge influx of child scooter operators as no rental company will rent to or allow their scooters to be driven by anyone under 18). The Park Duty Manager and the other CM who took us to the coronation parade (they insisted on taking us) were impressed with how my son handled driving through the crowd after the parade. They even laughed and said maybe he should teach some of the adults who rent ECV's.
I would have no issue with a CM stopping my child if he was operating his scooter in an unsafe manner, which is what they should do for anyone at any age. However after one of our encounters with a CM in May, I saw a child sitting in Grandma's lap operating the scooter and swerving all over. They almost tipped over and were going way too fast. Nothing was said to them nor were they stopped.
Disney keeps everything in their computer system now. I would have no problem getting a new "tag"(or whatever they want to use) just as I had to when we used a Special needs stroller for each trip. I also have no issue giving them our names so that it can be connected in their system. If they do that then if a child had been stopped due to going too fast then they could make that note and keep track(although CM's would need to write down the tag info (our blue tag had a number to a computer file) and make sure it got entered.)
My child's scooter is his wheelchair and thus his legs. Again if it were a power wheelchair(which is much heavier and many of them go much faster) there would be no issue, but that is not what my son uses or needs now. In a few years, he will, but right now he should be able to use his scooter in the parks as long as he operates in a safe manner.
I will let everyone know if I hear from Disney and their solution :)
 
But since the age of the child seems to be the problem, it's not just about turning down the speed, it's that a child of that age does not have the maturity to handle a very heavy, potentially dangerous machine. That's why the child has been stopped, why there is an age limit on rentals, etc. Disney does not have to first ask the child to slow down, they just have to show proof that children of a certain age (minors) cannot handle a scooter. That's what they were able to do with Segways. They didn't have to have a dozen accidents in the park first.

Just because a scooter is a 'medical prescription' does not mean it is allowed everywhere. There's the safety issue, of course, as there is with certain types of oxygen containers on planes, (or there were, IIRC) and many other examples like larger service animals, gas powered mobility devices and so on. Also, just because an adult is allowed to use something doesn't always make it ok for a child to use the same thing. There's a level of common sense that must be considered, with a consideration for the entire Disney-going population.

I think the day by day assessment was fair practice - what will Disney do if a bunch of underage kids show up in scooters because their parents don't want to push a stroller? ADA does not allow a business to ask for proof of disability.

But couldn't that extend to power wheelchairs?

Bottom line is that the child needs it and is prescribed it and Disney causing so much grief is going to be problematic for them.

Again, what would prevent them for restricting power wheelchair use if they can just determine that minors shouldn't operate powered devices? That is where my common sense takes me.
 
Perhaps it is just me, but this extreme burden of proof placed upon the OP is unacceptable and against the law.

I agree entirely! I don't like the fact that the remedy was made out to be a special, one-time only "courtesy".


I don't know if it would help, but we didn't like how industrial my sons stroller looks.... so, we pretty much took it apart, spray painted it with a better quality spray paint, put it back together. Then let my son pick out fabric, customized his seats... anyway, it no longer looks like every other stroller and definitely looks 'owned' and not rented. The other benefit is that it looks more less industrial which seems to make people more comfortable, and more likely to talk to and interact with my son.

So maybe that is a way to build on the decoration idea which lets the CMS know it isn't rented.

I don't think OP should have to do this, but it may be a cool idea. I work as a sign maker and buyer for a hospital. Our vendors make awesome custom vinyl wraps for dirt bikes and snowmobiles. I think it would be a cool birthday or Christmas present idea to get your son's scooter a cool new look of his choice. I'd definitely give one of your local sign shops a call and see if they could do something really cool.
 
But couldn't that extend to power wheelchairs?

Bottom line is that the child needs it and is prescribed it and Disney causing so much grief is going to be problematic for them.

Again, what would prevent them for restricting power wheelchair use if they can just determine that minors shouldn't operate powered devices? That is where my common sense takes me.
agree.
It would be age discrimination.

Disney could not just arbitrarily declare that people of a certain age are not mature or appropriate to use a power mobility device. They would have to go to court and prove it to the court.
And, they would not have an easy time of it; many kids with MD, arthritis, mild CP (among other disabilities) safely use power mobility devices all the time. I've seen kids who are not even 3 years old use a power wheelchair (and use it very well and safely). So, in order to have a rule that says you must be xx years old to operate your own power mobility device in the park,they would have to prove that the majority of children under the age of xx are not mature enough.

They could stop an individual who is operating the device in an unsafe manner, no matter what their age. That is not an issue and is not discrimination; it is the person's behavior or ability and that their behavior is putting others at risk that is the issue, not their age.

With the other things mentioned, there are issues or inherent dangers about the device in certain situations, not the user:
  • Segways - Disney was able to successfully argue in court that allowing their use in Theme parks would be dangerous to other guests.
    The reasons did not have to do with the users. Some of the reasons were that Segways can go very fast - up to 12.5 miles per hour (or 8 miles per hour faster than most ECVs). They have only 2 wheels, so they are not self supporting and can fall over if not in use, if they fail or if the battery runs out. And, even though they are covered under the ADA as "other powered mobility devices", they are in a different class and have some special restrictions in the ADA guidelines compared to power wheelchairs or ECVs.
  • Gas powered vehicles can't be safely used inside because of the toxic gases they give off. It's nothing to do with the user; the device manufacturers warn against it because carbon monoxide poisoning is a known hazard.
  • Certain types of oxygen containers on planes, again are not related to the user, but that there are known potential dangers that make the devices not appropriate to use on a plane.
  • Large service animals - there was some discussion about limiting the size of dogs when the service animal guidelines were reviewed the last time, but it ended up not bring adopted. The reason it was being considered was that smaller dogs fit better into the spaces allowed for service animals (so not really safety)
    The the only other animals recognized as service animals under the ADA are miniature ponies. There are some limits allowed on where they can go, but that is because of their higher weight and floors possibly not being able to support them.
 
I'm not sure this would work, but I'm looking from the standpoint of a solution.

The scooter is medically prescribed and I assume you have the paper work to prove it. I'm sure you could have his doctor write a note explaining this situation. Although not required by you I would think this would help tremendously with getting a blue tag for your child's scooter.

You have to admit it's highly unusual having a child use a scooter as his mobility device. In this case you may have to go the extra mile to get this to work more easily at Disney. It's for your child that you may need to go that extra mile. I know It's frustrating to have to go the extra mile.

I would go as far as to ask Disney ahead of time what else you could do to make this easier for all concerned for the next trip. I would have Disney names and phone numbers ready. Hopefully, they will share this info after you explain your last situation. Even if they say you don't need documentation I would bring it and use it.

I think this situation is a tough one; so, it may need some extra consideration on all sides. I'm trying to get your child and you to have a better experience there. Isn't it worth a shot?

You would have more to say if this didn't work and I would be talking to a supervisor and manager at Disney after following all these extra considerations, especially if you complied with everything Disney may have said ahead of time about your circumstances, too.
 
agree.
It would be age discrimination.

Disney could not just arbitrarily declare that people of a certain age are not mature or appropriate to use a power mobility device. They would have to go to court and prove it to the court.
And, they would not have an easy time of it; many kids with MD, arthritis, mild CP (among other disabilities) safely use power mobility devices all the time. I've seen kids who are not even 3 years old use a power wheelchair (and use it very well and safely). So, in order to have a rule that says you must be xx years old to operate your own power mobility device in the park,they would have to prove that the majority of children under the age of xx are not mature enough.

I am not an attorney, but I believe that you are wrong here. There is nothing illegal in setting age limits for activities. Many activities have age limits, including driving, smoking, drinking, solo air travel, movie admittance, etc. It's not age discrimination!
 
I am not an attorney, but I believe that you are wrong here. There is nothing illegal in setting age limits for activities. Many activities have age limits, including driving, smoking, drinking, solo air travel, movie admittance, etc. It's not age discrimination!

Except that none of those restrictions have anything to do with making something inaccessible that would otherwise be inaccessible if not for the disability. And I would think the prescribing physician would have way more knowledge not be appropriateness of a mobility device for youth. Further, there is no at large ban anywhere for a child to not be permitted to use a motorized mobility device. Disney doesn't have a leg to stand on for an arbitrary and illegal ban.

I also think Sue, whose daughter is in a motorized mobility device (IIRC ) would be well versed in what the law can and cannot allow. Her child, as a minor, would be limited or prohibited from doing any of your listed activities if she were able bodied.
 
In my opinion the only way Disney could prevent children from using their own ECV would be to, like Sue noted, prove that the operation of an ECV by a child is dangerous to safe operations. ADA.gov sums it up with "Safety requirements may be imposed only if they are necessary for the safe operation of a place of public accommodation. They must be based on actual risks and not on mere speculation, stereotypes, or generalizations about individuals with disabilities. For example, an amusement park may impose height requirements for certain rides when required for safety." Until that time they need to be made aware that NOT all EVC and power chair users are over 18. The managers should at least know to give you a sticker without a hassle.
 
I am not an attorney, but I believe that you are wrong here. There is nothing illegal in setting age limits for activities. Many activities have age limits, including driving, smoking, drinking, solo air travel, movie admittance, etc. It's not age discrimination!

(Note, I'm not a lawyer either.)

Well, it's not strictly speaking an age issue, but an intersection of age and handicapped status. Disney could say no people under the age of 18 could tour the parks and that would be legally OK. They could try to say that no-one with a handicap that requires an certain accommodations could tour the parks, but in order to do that legally, they would need to prove an overriding reason, such as banning Segways because they put the safety of other guests at risk. But in that case, they still had to provide an alternative (standing 4-wheel scooters) that fulfilled the same need as the Segway, but in a safer manner.

But what they are saying is that no children under the age of 18 with a handicap that requires certain accommodations may tour the park. Again, for that prohibition to be legal probably requires the same level of proof as for the Segway. They would have to prove that children who have been using an ECV daily for independent mobility are, none-the-less, a safety risk to other guests. And that's going to be hard to prove. If they try to say an 8 year old who has been using an ECV for hours a day, on his own, for an extended period, is too dangerous to allow in the park, but adults who have never used an ECV before are not, that's not going to be easy.

I think that even having a proficiency test that only kids are subject to, would be on shaky ground. I think the most they could do is require a statement that the child uses the ECV regularly and is proficient, and then if the child proves to be a danger to others, revoke his access at that point.

Note, that whether a child can rent an ECV is an entirely different matter, involving liability and insurance matters with the renting company. But if he has his own, those issues do not apply.
 
I live in Rhode Island we have a Disability Law Office here that offers free disability legal services to disabled people. I would check to see if Florida offers the same
 
Just returned home today and had a message waiting on my home phone( yes I still have a land line :ssst: but I had given them my cell number to call) He says he has "Good news" so I won't have to deal with this again. He wanted me to call him back so he could let me know what the have put in place. I called and left him a message with a time frame that I am available to chat tomorrow. I will post their solution once I hear back.
 
I am not an attorney, but I believe that you are wrong here. There is nothing illegal in setting age limits for activities. Many activities have age limits, including driving, smoking, drinking, solo air travel, movie admittance, etc. It's not age discrimination!
The difference is that those are all things that are voluntary - no one has to do them and the community has decided it is in the best interest of children and society in General not to allow children of a certain age to do them.
And, a car is a very dangerous piece of equipment, capable of going 100 miles an hour or more. It can do great damage if not used correctly and is out on the road with other vehicles that can do the same - people get killed every day in car crashes.
Most ECVs have a top speed of 4.5 miles per hour. Yes, they can do damage, but not tonthe same level as a car.

A child with a disability using their own ECV or power wheelchair is using that to replace their legs. Not allowing it would be like taking away their legs. That is why it would be illegal to just arbitrarily decide you must be a certain age to use one.
I didn't have time to look up the law, but Goofy14sure quoted the part I would have cited.
In my opinion the only way Disney could prevent children from using their own ECV would be to, like Sue noted, prove that the operation of an ECV by a child is dangerous to safe operations. ADA.gov sums it up with "Safety requirements may be imposed only if they are necessary for the safe operation of a place of public accommodation. They must be based on actual risks and not on mere speculation, stereotypes, or generalizations about individuals with disabilities. For example, an amusement park may impose height requirements for certain rides when required for safety." Until that time they need to be made aware that NOT all EVC and power chair users are over 18. The managers should at least know to give you a sticker without a hassle.
I don't know about the approval process for getting insurance or other payers to cover an ECV, but I can tell you about it for a power wheelchair there are a lot of hoops to go thru.
First, her teachers and school therapists observed that, although she could propel her manual wheelchair, it was slow and tiring for her and she could not go long distances. We contacted her doctor and got approval for a power mobility evaluation. During that, she saw an Occupational and Physical Therapist to see whether she could safely use a power mobilty device and what kind. Then came therapy sessions to try one/learn how to use one in a controlled environment.
After that, we got one to trial and the therapists and doctor wrote up a justification and proof of medical necessity to send to the insurance company.
The whole evaluation and approval process took about 8 weeks. And, then we had to wait for the power wheelchair to arrive.
When she got a new one, we had to go thru the process again - partly to prove it was still medically necessary, but also because she changed from a rear wheel drive to a mid wheel drive one.

I imagine the process is a little less involved for an ECV than a power wheelchair because ECVs are less expensive and easier to use.
(Note, I'm not a lawyer either.)

Well, it's not strictly speaking an age issue, but an intersection of age and handicapped status. Disney could say no people under the age of 18 could tour the parks and that would be legally OK. They could try to say that no-one with a handicap that requires an certain accommodations could tour the parks, but in order to do that legally, they would need to prove an overriding reason, such as banning Segways because they put the safety of other guests at risk. But in that case, they still had to provide an alternative (standing 4-wheel scooters) that fulfilled the same need as the Segway, but in a safer manner.

But what they are saying is that no children under the age of 18 with a handicap that requires certain accommodations may tour the park. Again, for that prohibition to be legal probably requires the same level of proof as for the Segway. They would have to prove that children who have been using an ECV daily for independent mobility are, none-the-less, a safety risk to other guests. And that's going to be hard to prove. If they try to say an 8 year old who has been using an ECV for hours a day, on his own, for an extended period, is too dangerous to allow in the park, but adults who have never used an ECV before are not, that's not going to be easy.

I think that even having a proficiency test that only kids are subject to, would be on shaky ground. I think the most they could do is require a statement that the child uses the ECV regularly and is proficient, and then if the child proves to be a danger to others, revoke his access at that point.

Note, that whether a child can rent an ECV is an entirely different matter, involving liability and insurance matters with the renting company. But if he has his own, those issues do not apply.
Agree with everything.

And you are correct that renting is a different situation. By renting, the company has some liability, even though the renter signs a rental agreement (minors can't sign a legal contract/agreement themselves). There is at least one company, Randy's, that will rent to some older minors, but they do personal delivery and do an assessment at the time of delivery.
 
Just returned home today and had a message waiting on my home phone( yes I still have a land line :ssst: but I had given them my cell number to call) He says he has "Good news" so I won't have to deal with this again. He wanted me to call him back so he could let me know what the have put in place. I called and left him a message with a time frame that I am available to chat tomorrow. I will post their solution once I hear back.

:thumbsup2
 
Interestingly while I was waiting on the shuttle from Kidani to Jambo tonight there was a family with a youn teen (arround 13/14 but certinly not 18!) in a rental ECV heading to the park busses
 
I thought I had posted an update before we went on our cruise and then visited WDW afterwards, but obviously I didn't push the right button or my computer didn't finish :blush:
I had received a call back from the CM/Park Duty Manager at DHS and the outcome was that after discussion with some higher ups there is now a file on my son with all of the background of our story and that from now on all I would need to do was go by Guest Services and give them the file number and they would issue a blue tag and mark it child driver. He did say, I did not have to have the blue tag and it was up to me if I wanted to stop or not, but that it was all in place now and we should not be delayed again. While this won't necessarily help others, it at least was in place for our trip that was coming up fast. I did tell him that it did not address other child ECV drivers and what should they do. He suggested calling the Special Needs Services number and trying to get the same thing in place before travel or upon entry to the first park.
So after our cruise we went to EPCOT and headed straight to guest services. Well.....I was told I had to wait again for a Park Duty Manager because they do not allow children under 18 to drive an ECV. So much for the file! I had to wait over 30 minutes until 2 Park Duty Managers came from the International Gateway entrance. They told me I would have to wait for a Park Duty Manager each time I had to get a new blue tag (1 per trip- not daily) They also said that EPCOT would be the only park I would have to wait more than a couple of minutes as they have 2 Guest Service offices. Well that is not true as I had to wait longer at DHS when I was waiting for the Park Duty manager the last time. All of this is not acceptable, but after several other CM comments and attitudes, I needed time to decompress before tackling the matter. For those who will say, just forget the tag, I had to point to it several times in the few hours we were there. Most of the time the CM would then nod and smile. Several others still made negative comments or handled it inappropriately. The worst was when we were about halfway through the queue for Journey into Imagination and a CM came running up from somewhere, chasing my son down, yelling "No! No! He can't be driving that! He is not old enough! Stop!" I showed her the blue tag and she argued with me and I explained that there is a file on him and I had already dealt with the Park Duty Managers and he is allowed to drive his personal ECV.
My son had a great time this last time as he is still learning the english language and doesn't really understand that it is all about him using his scooter, but unfortunately WDW went from a place I looked forward to and loved to visit to now a feeling of dread about returning. My choice seems to be 1) take away the independence he has using his scooter (which is his daily mobility device) and push him in a wheelchair 2) wait until he is a few years older and in a power wheelchair(which then means he won't be able to do many of the rides he can now) 3) go and have a stressed filled trip for me, but hopefully fun for my kids. 4) Go higher up in Disney to try to find a better approach to a child using a personal ECV- but still may boil down to the first 3 choices as who knows how long that may take and due to the progression of my sons DMD he may be at option 2 by then.:sad2:
 
Thanks for the update. It's ironic that he is being hassled with his own device, when we are here now and have seen several young kids (look like pre-teens or very young teens) riding off-site rentsl ECVs that no one seems to be batting an eye at.
 












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