Catholic theology question

[ford family]

here we go again.

It is difficult to respond to such constructive and cogent argument.

This morning I spent an interesting hour looking at Catholic teaching on contraception. The volume of explanation and justification from the church is just amazing, especially when you consider how widely it is ignored and how, eventually, it is likely to be revised and revoked. Ironically, the more you look at the arguments, the biblical interpretations that are supposed to create precedent, the more risible the stance becomes.

The point about churches wanting more recruits therefore not wanting their followers to practise birth control, was disputed by some posters, although this is a widely held belief. The following link may interest you
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/news.php?p=9190&c=1
from which I quote
A Vatican-sanctioned sex guide is encouraging churchgoers to make love more often in an effort to offset "impotence and frigidity" and address papal concerns over declining birth-rates among Italian Roman Catholics

Now, if all these good Catholics are using approved methodologies to keep their family size down to a level they themselves feel is appropriate, what is the Vatican bleating about? Surely they are not concerned about the absolute size of the future congregation and the knock on effect on their income?

ford family

 

[disney4us2002]

I used the FAM when trying to conceive which explains how we have 3 sons, lol. I get the "I'm ovulating, it's now." but never quite got the "I'll ovulate in 3 days so now to try for a girl" - Skettles method (I think that's the right name.). Perhaps because I was over 30 I wouldn't ovulate every month, perhaps dh only had male-producers (running joke in his family of all males), perhaps dh's sperm died before day 3? Who knows? I can't see how predicting when you're due to ovulate would work for NFP once ovulation starts getting unpredictable (my ob/gyn said after 30 ovulation can skip months). I guess I'd study it more if I were trying not to get pg rather than trying to get pg.

Incidentally, I grew up in a very catholic small town (we weren't) and it was the running joke that all Catholics had big families to make more little Catholics. I guess as a kid it didn't mean more money thru tithing to me but just more people to fill the churches. I never thought it was a bad thing - I wanted more brothers and sisters anyway, lol and was jealous of a few friends that had so many.

 

[chrissyk]

Perhaps there is a non-NFP version that is similar to NFP without the Catholic Doctrine/reasoning in it. NFP cannot use any supplemental artificial means b/c then it would camoflouge symptoms when you are trying to document your information.

ChrissyK--the information you received growing up was wrong...I know that you aren't the only person who got this and it just didn't linger in Boston--it doesn't mean that it was correct. Though church Doctrine doesn't evolve very much--how the clergy handle it is evolving so that they are in fact leading the flock and not misguiding the flock.

There is a church in Melbourne that is a "traditional Roman Catholic Church"--but it is not recognized by the Vatican or the Diocese--it was someone who went out on their own to create a church b/c of their feelings towards the RCC. So no, you aren't the only one who believed the incorrect information you were taught.

The church is definitely trying to mend itself--and in the Orlando Diocese, you cannot be in ministry with children or the elderly without fingerprints and an FBI background check. This includes Priests, Deacons, Parish Staff, Laity, and school parents who volunteer with the kids.

I only came to Catholicism in the mid-90s as a college student, so I pretty much escaped the molestation issues. I saw one documentary/teleplay on it on HBO back in the 80s, so had heard of it then.....very sad. If these horrible events were close to you--then it is understandable the wedge that they have created between the church and its former followers. I think this next generation of Catholics will be stronger than in previous decades....but we won't really know for some time.

Wow, I didn't even know that anyone was joining the Catholic church as a young person...that's a switch, LOL! Good for you for finding the positive in the church, though. It sounds like Catholicism down here is a lot different that it was up there anyways. Down here, religion in general seems a lot more free...people aren't trying to shove it down my throat down here, even though this area seems more religious in general. I hope that that makes sense, LOL! Before the sex-abuse scandal shrunk the Catholic population so much, being Catholic in the Northeast was a very rigid experience. Now, it seems like they're doing whatever they can to salvage the parishoners that they have left.

Is that church in Melbourne run by people who are part of Voice of the Faithful? I know of at least one church (in NH I think) that is not recognized by the Vatican or the Archdiocese. The priest was ordained, then decided that he should be able to marry but also remain a priest. I see nothing wrong with this, but the church clearly disagrees. He does have an active parish, though! Just curious if it's the same deal in that Melbourne church. I always thought that that was so cool...that priest could have gone Protestant or Orthodox or whatever, but he insisted on staying a Catholic priest AND being married. I think that that was trailblazing. Perhaps if they allowed married men to become priests, they wouldn't have attracted the scum-of-the-earth to the priesthood in desperation!

 

[gina2000]

Didn't read the whole thread but just wanted to chime in about the RC Church wanting alot of children to strengthen its fold. I was also taught that growing up in the Catholic Church (attended Catholic grammar school in the 60s).

When we went to get married, I was counselled by the priest of our parish to "let the children come". I don't know if it was to swell the population of the church (the priest never specifically said that) but I came away feeling like that was the deal.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Thanks for the Link ford family--something actually worth reading as you "try" to defend your viewpoint. One small quote out of the entire article does nothing to validate your opinions to make them correct.

Looks like a healthy explanation of the three-letter word that people have thought for decades that the Catholic church thought to be a dirty word.

As far as population issues:

The Vatican has regularly expressed its concerns over Italy's low birth rate, which stands at fewer than nine births per thousand inhabitants. Two years ago, in an address to the Italian parliament, Pope John Paul described the declining rate as "a serious threat that weighs on the future of the country".

The Pope did say country and not church. Which is a valid statement for any country. If the birth rate falls off drastically--well then that will have some negative impact on the future of a country.

According to Beretta, the book is a comprehensive summary of Church doctrine on sexuality, couched in deliberately populist language.

He said: "We deliberately set out to discuss the Church's attitude towards sex in frank, secular language. But everything in this book is taken from conventional doctrine. Because of the widespread assumption that the Church loathes sexuality, most people are not aware of the positive things it has to say about physical intimacy."

Again--basically the Catholic church says sex is a good thing in contrast to what it was thought to believe before.

This book seems to have nothing to do with promulgating a population increase of Catholic followers so as to pad the vault at the Vatican. Basically it is getting rid of the stereotype that sex is a sin and sex is dirty and the Catholic church thinks these things. Instead itis a BEAUTIFUL act that should be practiced often by a married couple. It is only a sin out of wedlock or a sin when there is physical obstruction to the possibility of life.

And it is true--those who practice NFP do have relations MORE frequently than those who don't on average. Kind of a nice bonus .

As far as the impotence thing--not a man and not a sex expert...I suppose you either use it or lose it so to speak---but I will have to defer to someone of more expertise on that one (other than just being male of course).

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Wow, I didn't even know that anyone was joining the Catholic church as a young person...that's a switch, LOL! Good for you for finding the positive in the church, though. It sounds like Catholicism down here is a lot different that it was up there anyways. Down here, religion in general seems a lot more free...people aren't trying to shove it down my throat down here, even though this area seems more religious in general. I hope that that makes sense, LOL! Before the sex-abuse scandal shrunk the Catholic population so much, being Catholic in the Northeast was a very rigid experience. Now, it seems like they're doing whatever they can to salvage the parishoners that they have left.

Is that church in Melbourne run by people who are part of Voice of the Faithful? I know of at least one church (in NH I think) that is not recognized by the Vatican or the Archdiocese. The priest was ordained, then decided that he should be able to marry but also remain a priest. I see nothing wrong with this, but the church clearly disagrees. He does have an active parish, though! Just curious if it's the same deal in that Melbourne church. I always thought that that was so cool...that priest could have gone Protestant or Orthodox or whatever, but he insisted on staying a Catholic priest AND being married. I think that that was trailblazing. Perhaps if they allowed married men to become priests, they wouldn't have attracted the scum-of-the-earth to the priesthood in desperation!

Not a clue--on the church. Anybody can be a child molestor--I do know that from personal experience. They needn't be a priest, single, male, or otherwise. ANYBODY with a sick and twisted brain can molest a child. And they needn't hide in the priesthood to do it.

Our church has a very active "Welcome Home Catholics" Ministry and we have the Christ Renews His Parish Retreats which are wonderful.

The problem with the non-Catholic Catholic churches--is that if you are still with the RCC....then if you pop in on one of those, you may not be aware that they are not recognized by the RCC. I thought it was a new church--but it turned out it wasn't.

And the way the poor CCD students were taught pre-vatican II and even the first 10-20 years post Vatican II is NOT the way they are taught now...at least down here

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Didn't read the whole thread but just wanted to chime in about the RC Church wanting alot of children to strengthen its fold. I was also taught that growing up in the Catholic Church (attended Catholic grammar school in the 60s).

When we went to get married, I was counselled by the priest of our parish to "let the children come". I don't know if it was to swell the population of the church (the priest never specifically said that) but I came away feeling like that was the deal.

Well in the land of NFP--they do say the Catholic Church understands that not everyone can handle a traditionally sized Catholic family and they do understand that some wish to control the size of their families...as long as it is all done out of love and the right way. NFP helps accomplish that. You can accept the whole person which is true love.

 

[beattyfamily]

I only came to Catholicism in the mid-90s as a college student...

Just wanted to say that I was also baptized, received First Communion and was confirmed as an adult back in 1995 with my DH!

My parents were Catholic but by the time I was born they didn't bother having me baptized etc...and I also went to Catholic school growing up but only because we moved to Macau and only the Catholic schools taught in English there. I always had such a fondness for the Church back then and wished I was part of it. Finally as an adult I got my wish.

And the way the poor CCD students were taught pre-vatican II and even the first 10-20 years post Vatican II is NOT the way they are taught now...

ITA. Things have changed dramatically since Vatican II.

 

[6_Time_Momma]

Thanks for the Link ford family--something actually worth reading as you "try" to defend your viewpoint. One small quote out of the entire article does nothing to validate your opinions to make them correct.

Looks like a healthy explanation of the three-letter word that people have thought for decades that the Catholic church thought to be a dirty word.

As far as population issues:


The Pope did say country and not church. Which is a valid statement for any country. If the birth rate falls off drastically--well then that will have some negative impact on the future of a country.



Again--basically the Catholic church says sex is a good thing in contrast to what it was thought to believe before.

This book seems to have nothing to do with promulgating a population increase of Catholic followers so as to pad the vault at the Vatican. Basically it is getting rid of the stereotype that sex is a sin and sex is dirty and the Catholic church thinks these things. Instead itis a BEAUTIFUL act that should be practiced often by a married couple. It is only a sin out of wedlock or a sin when there is physical obstruction to the possibility of life.

And it is true--those who practice NFP do have relations MORE frequently than those who don't on average. Kind of a nice bonus .

As far as the impotence thing--not a man and not a sex expert...I suppose you either use it or lose it so to speak---but I will have to defer to someone of more expertise on that one (other than just being male of course).

Just thought I'd throw in a side note on the Church's teaching/emphasizing the beauty of sexual relations within the confines of marriage, I would highly recommend reading/listening to Christopher West's discussion on Pope JPII's Theology of the Body. Very awesome speaker. Very awesome discussion.
Theology of the Body

 

[6_Time_Momma]

Just wanted to say that I was also baptized and confirmed as an adult back in 1995 with my DH!

1997 for myself.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Just thought I'd throw in a side note on the Church's teaching/emphasizing the beauty of sexual relations within the confines of marriage, I would highly recommend reading/listening to Christopher West's discussion on Pope JPII's Theology of the Body. Very awesome speaker. Very awesome discussion.
Theology of the Body

I'll have to read it later--thanks for the link!

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Just wanted to say that I was also baptized and confirmed as an adult back in 1995 with my DH!

1995 Easter Sunday was my first mass--and one year later in 1996...baptized, first communion, and confirmed . I really felt home

 

[beattyfamily]

1997 for myself.

1995 Easter Sunday was my first mass--and one year later in 1996...baptized, first communion, and confirmed . I really felt home

That's amazing that the three of us all became Catholics as adults in the mid-90's!! I never knew that! It's great!

 

[chrissyk]

1995 Easter Sunday was my first mass--and one year later in 1996...baptized, first communion, and confirmed . I really felt home

Wow, fast track, LOL! It took me 14 years to do those sacriments

I think that it's interesting that the people who seem to have the most warm feelings towards the Catholic Church on this thread are the ones who came to the church as adults. Being raised in the church soured a lot of people on the religion. I think that this is changing, because the church has to evolve to keep it's parishoners.

Things HAVE changed a lot since Vatican II, but they didn't change very fast. 15-20 years ago, I was still being taught some stuff in CCD that you guys are clearly disagreeing with on here.

 

[Missy1961]

I have been reading this thread since the beginning. I hesitated to join in, since so many of you are presenting great points of view.

But I see that the "Church needs more little Catholics" arguement has popped up again. I was raised Catholic by very Catholic parents. I went to Catholic school for 8 years. And guess what, I survived. And I was taught religon by nuns, LOL. And I was never taught that BCP were not allowed so the Church could have more "little Catholics". And yes, I was taught about sex in Catholic school, in the 1970's. The nuns didn't teach the class--a member of our parish was a biology professor in a local college--and he came to school and taught us.

And the mother who didn't attend their child's baptism? It must have been something cultural, not Catholic. My mom was at all of our baptisms, my aunts were there, etc. Well, except one baptism--mine! My brother and some of my cousins had chicken pox and they were not allowed near the baptism or the party. One member of the extended family--my aunt's SIL--stayed with them at my aunt's house while the party went on.

I've been Catholic my whole life--still attend Mass every Sunday. The Church isn't without fault--what is?

 

[beattyfamily]

I have been reading this thread since the beginning. I hesitated to join in, since so many of you are presenting great points of view.

But I see that the "Church needs more little Catholics" arguement has popped up again. I was raised Catholic by very Catholic parents. I went to Catholic school for 8 years. And guess what, I survived. And I was taught religon by nuns, LOL. And I was never taught that BCP were not allowed so the Church could have more "little Catholics". And yes, I was taught about sex in Catholic school, in the 1970's. The nuns didn't teach the class--a member of our parish was a biology professor in a local college--and he came to school and taught us.

And the mother who didn't attend their child's baptism? It must have been something cultural, not Catholic. My mom was at all of our baptisms, my aunts were there, etc. Well, except one baptism--mine! My brother and some of my cousins had chicken pox and they were not allowed near the baptism or the party. One member of the extended family--my aunt's SIL--stayed with them at my aunt's house while the party went on.

I've been Catholic my whole life--still attend Mass every Sunday. The Church isn't without fault--what is?

Thank you for chiming in with your perspective! I too was taught by nuns and still chose to be baptized Catholic! Go figure!

 

[auntpolly]

I really don't have the energy to get into another debate about whether the Catholic Church is worth anything but I just have to say that I think there are a lot of people who are spooked by it and don't realize what it's really like.

As a parent who watched a DD just come up throught PSR, I was pretty impressed with how progressive the church really is. Not everyone would agree with what DD was taught, but if you are thinking that it's a bunch of nuns brow beating kids into thinking they'll burn in Hell if they don't go along with the party line, you are really mistaken. PSR in our parish and all the parishes around her encouraged frank discussions and questioning everything. I've gotten into the most fascinating talks with our priests - for someone like me who loves to pull things apart and examine them it's really a haven for me.

And I've disagreed with priests on points, (and I've seen them disagree with each other) but no one's kicked me out of the church yet. I really love the Church! Catholic Charities is a complete and separate entity - away from and not the church that's goal is only to help the neediest. No strings. I've always felt like the Catholic Church has been really good at that. The priests I know have incredible compassion for the needy - the poor, the lonely, the elderly.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I wanted to be taught by nuns---begged to be sent to parochial school. Was slightly jealous in high school b/c bro and sis got to go to parochial school while I was never allowed to. Unfortunately Catholic High school was a small fortune 15 years ago--now it's a BIG fortune. (FYI--it was the circumstance of the public school which is why bro and sis went to private..I got into prestigious magnet school in the area, so my parents didn't have to spend the money on a good education).

And now I'm homeschooling. Go figure

 

[beattyfamily]

I wanted to be taught by nuns---begged to be sent to parochial school. Was slightly jealous in high school b/c bro and sis got to go to parochial school while I was never allowed to.

Too funny! I went to a Catholic grade school but I wasn't allowed to go to Confession with the rest of the kids and wasn't allowed to receive Communion and I was SO jealous! You are so reminding me of me!

 

[DisDuck]

Read the whole thread and just want to bring it back to the topic of B/C. Why was it illegal for B/C other than barrier methods years ago? Why did Margaret Sanger(I think that is the person) go to trial over B/C?

It seems to me that religion has driven some laws for which it has no business getting involved. If someone wishes to use family planning thru artificial means than that is solely their issue and should not be legislated.

Someone who wishes to use non-artificial means is fine for them but should not impose on others as their beliefs may allow it. In fact curiously enough in Jewish Law the B/C is perfectly occur but not barrier methods.