Catholic theology question

[Lisa loves Pooh]

That has been my experience as well. I think a lot of priests, at least in the US, are not really opposed to birth control or are afraid of alienating their entire parishes by preaching against it. My feeling is that there is too much good in the church to leave it over matters of sexuality. I'll deal with God directly on that one when the time comes.

From my priests perspective--it isn't so much that they don't care as they don't want to face the wrath of women. NFP is wonderful, but isn't touted enough b/c people are not interested in the details...when they here church approved NFP....all they see is "church's nose where it doesn't belong" or "NFP=lots of kids" b/c they are recalling the old rhythm method.

 

[becka]

. Does ANYONE know of any married couple with kids who think of each other as "primarily objects of sexual pleasure" or "slaves to pleasure"?

It just struck me as funny...

If that is the case then it is an unhealthy marriage in the first place IMHO. A couple that views each other as only objects for sexual pleasure has a number of additional issues.

I guess I just can't really wrap my mind around reasons why sex for pleasure in a marriage is a bad thing.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Lisa Loves Pooh, thanks so much for searching out that information for me. It does help me to understand the Catholic view point. I do have to say this, however (bolds are my emphasis):



I had to when I read this. Does ANYONE know of any married couple with kids who think of each other as "primarily objects of sexual pleasure" or "slaves to pleasure"?

It just struck me as funny...

Well divorce rate for married couples is 50%, divorce rate for NFP users is around 6%. We may not consciously think of our spouses this way...but subsconsciously it is very possible. Why else all the jokes about how "he just won't keep his hands off of me" "they want it all the time" "okay, I'm done".....b/c it does happen in real life and it happens often. Being able to have sex whenever you want....does make the act more physical instead of more loving.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

If that is the case then it is an unhealthy marriage in the first place IMHO. A couple that views each other as only objects for sexual pleasure has a number of additional issues.

I guess I just can't really wrap my mind around reasons why sex for pleasure in a marriage is a bad thing.

It is a difficult concept...but it is b/c sex has two purposes--and having it for just the one purpose and not the other lessons the act. With a barrier or hormones--you are saying I accept you--just not that part of you.

 

[MrsKreamer]

I've read the whole thead (whew!) and I've had this thought in my head since the beginning. I will use beattyfamily's quote to illustrate it, just because it was close to the end and easy to find.

So if "wasting the seed" is a sin...then how does NFP work? Isn't only having sex when you know you can't get pregnant "wasting the seed", whether you use anything artificial or not?

Someone at the beginning of the thread mentioned something about it being wrong to enjoy only the pleasure of sex without accepting the consequences of it (I'm paraphrasing...that was 10 pages ago). But with NFP, isn't this exactly what you're doing?

I am not trying to bash, just understand.

Not really. With artificial birth control you are having sex just for pleasure. Using NFP you are still having sex for pleasure, but you are also not using any type of barrier, or chemical to stop the creation of life. You are still open to life.

 

[becka]

Well divorce rate for married couples is 50%, divorce rate for NFP users is around 6%.

Do you think this could be related just as much to the fact that the typical couple that utilizes NFP is probably a very religious Catholic couple who would also have problems with divorce? I am not saying that is the only reason (increased communication, etc. may be part of it) but it would certainly make logical sense.

It is a difficult concept...but it is b/c sex has two purposes--and having it for just the one purpose and not the other lessons the act. With a barrier or hormones--you are saying I accept you--just not that part of you.

For me personally it is not about not accepting my DH but about feeling that we are not ready to have another child right now. However, if God sees fit for us to have another child right now any BC method in the world is not going to stop Him. If I do become pregnant I will have the baby and "accept the consequences" of having sex with DH. I am "open to life" but I just don't want to necessarily "invite" a new life into the world right now.

I guess I have more problems with telling my DH that I accept all of you just not for the next week.

I hope I am not offending anyone but this is just something that I really don't understand and obviously several of us are never going to agree but I still like to learn.

 

[MrsKreamer]

Do you think this could be related just as much to the fact that the typical couple that utilizes NFP is probably a very religious Catholic couple who would also have problems with divorce? I am not saying that is the only reason (increased communication, etc. make be part of it) but it would certainly make logical sense.

I know tons of Catholic people who have gotten divorces. My grandmother is extremely devout and she and my grandfather got divorced 40 years ago.

I do think that religion has something to do with it. I believe(just my belief not stating it as a fact) that couples who are very religious have really good communication. My aunt and uncle have been married for for almost 16 years. They got married b/c my aunt was pregnant. They have one of the best marriages I have ever seen. They are devout Catholic (they also practice NFP) I think that it brings them closer.

 

[disney4us2002]

Those were some interesting readings. So if the "seed of life" (cannot help but giggle at that term!) is supposed to go in the 'right place' then I'd have to assume anal and oral are out of the question. I think that's what Becca was asking. Also, it seems if I'm reading correctly that the Catholic church doesn't approve of Catholic couples who don't want any children. They list that as family avoidance and call it selfish. I see they make exceptions for certain reasons, but really to say a couple cannot choice to be childless seems harsh to me.

 

[MrsKreamer]

...feeling that we are not ready to have another child right now. However, if God sees fit for us to have another child right now any BC method in the world is not going to stop Him. If I do become pregnant I will have the baby and "accept the consequences" of having sex with DH. I am "open to life" but I just don't want to necessarily "invite" a new life into the world right now.

I agree.

 

[Crankyshank]

Sodomy is a mortal sin and is against the law in several states

 

[6_Time_Momma]

I understand that NFP being acceptable and ABC not being acceptable would be confusing to people who don't truly understand the Church stand on sex/marriage etc.

For those of you truly interested, one very good article, though a little long, can be found here

http://www.christopherwest.com/article4.htm

Some other articles of interest can be found here.

http://www.christopherwest.com/works.htm

If you really want to know more, you can download his lecture series off the site. Really interesting for those who genuinly want to understand the Catholic position.

 

[WDWLVR]

A real life twist to the whole birth control issue.

January 1990 I go to the doctor to talk about birth control as my now DH and I were discussing marriage. I was a good Catholic girl who had not had sex up to this point. Just wanted to get started on it early to make sure there were no complications that would ruin the big day (we were talking of getting married that Fall).

Doctor and I talk - he's all for it. Doctor does pelvic exam and finds something not right. To make a long story short I end up with Stage 1 Ovarian Cancer. Ovarian cancer is deadly because it is usually not found until later stages. If I had not been "bad" and went to talk about birth control it would not have been found until much later. I had no symptoms to speak of at all. I looked at it as God's way of taking care of me. My mother - a very devout Catholic I think had her faith a little shaken by it all.

The priest who married us is not only a Roman Catholic priest but a clinical phycologist. He helped me through my chemo treatments. When he married us he left out all the parts about welcoming children into our lives. At no time did he ever try to convince me not to marry because my husbands seeds would be going to waste.

We've been married 15 years this year and the challenges we faced early on in our marriage have made it a stronger one.

I am still a devout Catholic, but that doesn't mean that I don't think some things should and someday will change.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

A real life twist to the whole birth control issue.

January 1990 I go to the doctor to talk about birth control as my now DH and I were discussing marriage. I was a good Catholic girl who had not had sex up to this point. Just wanted to get started on it early to make sure there were no complications that would ruin the big day (we were talking of getting married that Fall).

Doctor and I talk - he's all for it. Doctor does pelvic exam and finds something not right. To make a long story short I end up with Stage 1 Ovarian Cancer. Ovarian cancer is deadly because it is usually not found until later stages. If I had not been "bad" and went to talk about birth control it would not have been found until much later. I had no symptoms to speak of at all. I looked at it as God's way of taking care of me. My mother - a very devout Catholic I think had her faith a little shaken by it all.

The priest who married us is not only a Roman Catholic priest but a clinical phycologist. He helped me through my chemo treatments. When he married us he left out all the parts about welcoming children into our lives. At no time did he ever try to convince me not to marry because my husbands seeds would be going to waste.

We've been married 15 years this year and the challenges we faced early on in our marriage have made it a stronger one.

I am still a devout Catholic, but that doesn't mean that I don't think some things should and someday will change.

This doesn't excuse the use of birth control in the church--but God does work in mysterious ways and whatever it took to get you to that OB/GYN in the first place was meant to be--and if that meant seeking out birth control so that your Ovarian Cancer could be caught and treated...then so be it.

If you are physically unable to get pregnant....for medical reasons or biological reasons--it is still justifiable and be married and not procreate as has been displayed in the various resources we have posted here.

Perhaps instead of being a good reason of getting bc--this is evidence of having a baseline exam done to check the state of your health. Just like men and their prostate--they should just get it checked just because.

I'm glad that you were able to get your cancer treated (being a 15 year survivor--I'm assuming that you are okay at this point...is that accurate?).

 

[6_Time_Momma]

I think that it's interesting that the people who seem to have the most warm feelings towards the Catholic Church on this thread are the ones who came to the church as adults. Being raised in the church soured a lot of people on the religion. I think that this is changing, because the church has to evolve to keep it's parishoners.

It may seem that way, but my husband was raised Catholic and continues to have a deep love for his faith.

As far as change, I must confess that I am more of a traditionalist when it comes to the Church. I would love to see women go back to going to church with their heads covered and in modest dresses. I would love for people to recieve communion in mouth rather than hand. I would love to hear more Latin prayers. More kneeling prior to recieving, etc. I, personally, think it is sad that the Church would need to change in order to keep parishoners.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

It may seem that way, but my husband was raised Catholic and continues to have a deep love for his faith.

As far as change, I must confess that I am more of a traditionalist when it comes to the Church. I would love to see women go back to going to church with their heads covered and in modest dresses. I would love for people to recieve communion in mouth rather than hand. I would love to hear more Latin prayers. More kneeling prior to recieving, etc. I, personally, think it is sad that the Church would need to change in order to keep parishoners.

I wonder if they really mean "change" or more modernized....maybe yet another Catholic thread---what should "change" about the church. I'm more for modest dress at church period. Being across the street from the beach (or just in Florida, period)--we get some who come in that leave little to the imagination.

I do agree that "old school" fallen away Catholics would benefit from an update class on the Catholic Church today.

One of our lay ministers was a cradle catholic who left the Catholic church, went to seminary, was a preacher for 10 years and in all of his studies realized that the Catholic church was God's true church (he said it better--this is my slaughtering of his comment, my apologies)....in any case--overnight, quit that job and came back to the Catholic Faith and does awesome work for our parish because he has both sides of the angle studied.

We did go to a tradionlist church in Paris. It was neat to see the old way they did things....communion by mouth, ladies heads covered..everything you say. Mass was in French (I think???) and not Latin..but either way--wouldn't have comprehended a word.

 

[MrsKreamer]

speaking about people dressing more modestly. I am 22, fairly young. I went to my dcousin's(15 now) conformation. You should have seen what some of those girls were wearing! I was embarressed for them. To think they had to go before the Archbishop dressed like that

 

[EltonJohn]

Why does the Vatican not allow birth control.

Read HUMANAE VITAE promulgated by Pope Paul VI on July 25, 1968 dealing with this subject. Also relevant to this issue is Casti Connubii given on New Year's Eve 1930 by Pope Pius XI.

The conservative Catholic Answers apostalate has a tract that should explain the Vatican's stance on artificial contraception. Their stance is closely tied to their view of marriage.

RC convert Kimberly Hahn wrote "Life-Giving Love: Embracing God's Beautiful Design for Marriage", which is a good book explaining the position of the Vatican.

Additionally, I would refer you to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which can be found online here. Go to the index and find that paragraphs concerning contraception and marriage.

Furthermore, the conservative EWTN has an "Ask the Experts" forum here with trained RCs that can answer any question you have regarding the RCC.

One of the EWTN "experts" is John Trigilio. He co-wrote a book called "Catholicism for Dummies" with fellow RC priest Kenneth Brighenti. The book is an excellent source for learning about the RCC.

Hope this helps anyone who comes along.

 

[EltonJohn]

Every Sperm Is Sacred Lyrics
Artist: Monty Python
Album: The Meaning Of Life

<snip>

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

I love Monty Python! This song is so funny.

 

[WDWMom]

Boy, when I posted yesterday it was the first page and now this is at 12 and it has taken me tow sittings to read through it all. I didn't expect so much about my post on why mother's weren't at Baptisms. I only wrote about my question to our RCIA instructor and her answer. If you have read the "Red Tent", (I can't remember the author) you will understand that women were thought to be unlcean during their periods and after birth. I was born in 1966 around the time of Vactican II. My brother was born in 1974 and my mom was at his Baptism so maybe things changed. Maybe some of it was ethnic also. My Dad's family is very Polish and my Grandmother dominated all parts of their lives.

I had to go back to my orignal post to even remember why I wrote what I did. There was a question about women being "unclean", and I gave a response to clarify it.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Bumped