Catholic theology question

Lisa loves Pooh said:
You are very misguided. Birth control has absolutely NOTHING to do with money as was quoted earlier in the thread.

Your posts warrant no further response from me. Have fun digging a hole for yourself.

I find your response very patronising but not untypical of such an entrenched position.
Just because you think something is true does not make it so. You are fully entitled to your opinion, but that is all it is, an opinion. I believe that the Roman Catholic Church forbids birth control because a larger Catholic population means more money for the church leaders.

ford family
 
ford family said:
I find your response very patronising but not untypical of such an entrenched position.
Just because you think something is true does not make it so. You are fully entitled to your opinion, but that is all it is, an opinion.
ford family

Maybe you should take your own advice. Do you have it written anywhere that states what you belive as fact. Another poster provided an official statement from the Catholic website. Care to share your proof? :rolleyes:
 
ford family said:
I find your response very patronising but not untypical of such an entrenched position.
Just because you think something is true does not make it so. You are fully entitled to your opinion, but that is all it is, an opinion. I believe that the Roman Catholic Church forbids birth control because a larger Catholic population means more money for the church leaders.

ford family
I would love to see some evidence. Its an interesting assumption, but it its no more or less valid than beleiving that the church is against birth control becuase they honestly believe it is a sin. You like your assumptions becuase they back your predjudices against organized religion, but I don't see any proof, just a theory of how it might work should your assumptions be true. Problem is, your assumptions might not be true.


You are working backwards from your preconceptions, but that doesn't make them true.
 
WDWHound said:
So if a Religious organization helps the poor and sufferering, they are simply trying to build business? What if they didn't use raise money to help the poosr and suffrering? Then you would call them hyopocrits.

Hmmm, maybe they are really just doing their best to serve God as a Church. That doesn't make them perfect. There will be some corruption, some people simply seeking power or money, but most organized faiths I have looked into really are about serving God, not the church itself, and that means feed the poor and helping the suffering. Yes, there have been times in history where this has not been true (especially with the Catholic church), but things change.

But are you just helping the poor and suffering? Or does that help come with a catch, you have to give up your current personal belief system and join ours? If that is not the case, if you provide help and then carry on your way without any attempt at conversion, then I apologise for any previous denigration and wish you well.
But, if your help comes with strings attached, worship our God or no help, then I stand by my belief that you are only helping these poor people because, eventually, there will be something in it for you, money, power, job creation, whatever.

ford family
 

chrissyk said:
We have a priest who is like family to us. He runs a home for adult men with downs' syndrome.. The order that he belongs to keeps trying to shut down the home and sell off the (very valuable) land for their coffers. The home needs so much work, but our priest can't get the money to get it done. He is a good priest, but he's very much the exception to the rule in his order. The rest are greedy and no good. They have caused so much grief for our friend the priest. It's just terrible! I would NEVER tithe to the Catholic church. If I wanted to give, I'd have a new roof put on the house so that our priest friend and the boys would not have to worry about that anymore. If you give to the church, the money goes where THEY want it to, not to where it is really needed. That's been my experience anyways. Just one more reason that I'm now a "recovering Catholic".

I'm sorry you feel that way. Just b/c of what that parish did doesn't mean they are all like that. My parish is far from greedy--I've worked in ministry so I've seen where some of that money goes.

My church does several things to fund the coffers--and in turn those coffers are used on the parishioners via expansion and services. Our church is going through an expansion b/c we are busting at the seems--even more so since we lost an entire building to the hurricanes. They tithe on their income. We have a sister parish in Haiti that we fund--the gift shop...100% of their profits goes to this sister parish. Our thrift store...100% of their profits is used for charity. We have on site the St. Vincent De Paul society that helps people who are having trouble making ends meet during the month. We send medical missions and a vacation bible school to Haiti every year. What your church did could have been awful, but there could have been good reason behind it--though I don't know the full story behind it as I am sure there is one--it could have been something justifiable--who knows.
 
ford family said:
But are you just helping the poor and suffering? Or does that help come with a catch, you have to give up your current personal belief system and join ours? If that is not the case, if you provide help and then carry on your way without any attempt at conversion, then I apologise for any previous denigration and wish you well.
But, if your help comes with strings attached, worship our God or no help, then I stand by my belief that you are only helping these poor people because, eventually, there will be something in it for you, money, power, job creation, whatever.

ford family
Most, not all, but most of the help devivered by the Methodist church comes with no catch. We are there to feed the hungry, not convert them. We do have some evangelists, but that not the main thrust of where our money goes by a long shot. The only time there is a "catch is when we are working through a preexisting church or Methodist institution, but even then the services they offer are open to all and NO attempt to convert is made. We don;t make our faith secret (why should we), but we don't sell it either.

The assumption that someone could only be helping someone to get something in return is so jaded as to make me sad. How do you know the hearts of the people who do this work? How do you know there is greed in the hearts of those at the top of the church instead of love? Jesus tells us not top judge others, for only God knows their hearts. Those are wise words for those both in and out of the church.
 
MrsKreamer said:
Maybe you should take your own advice. Do you have it written anywhere that states what you belive as fact. Another poster provided an official statement from the Catholic website. Care to share your proof? :rolleyes:

Do you ever read your own post back before you transmit?
Proof of what a Catholic says the Catholic Church believes from the Official Catholic website!!! And then you have the audacity to roll your eyes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ford family
 
ford family said:
Do you ever read your own post back before you transmit?
Proof of what a Catholic says the Catholic Church believes from the Official Catholic website!!! And then you have the audacity to roll your eyes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ford family


I am just stating the fact that this is YOUR opinion, not a FACT. Ugh Does anyone else agree that you cannot argue with a brick wall :sad2:
 
MrsKreamer said:
I am just stating the fact that this is YOUR opinion, not a FACT. Ugh Does anyone else agree that you cannot argue with a brick wall :sad2:

Yes, I do agree, so let's not bother.
 
MrsKreamer said:
I am just stating the fact that this is YOUR opinion, not a FACT. Ugh Does anyone else agree that you cannot argue with a brick wall :sad2:

Me!!!!

That's why I'm not responding to the poster who shall remain nameless.
 
MrsKreamer said:
I am just stating the fact that this is YOUR opinion, not a FACT. Ugh Does anyone else agree that you cannot argue with a brick wall :sad2:

Excuse me, that is why I said "I believe..." which means it is my opinion. The same goes for anything written on an official Catholic website. It is their opinion, not fact.

Its late here, goodnight.

ford family
 
someone just said on another thread that the Pope has died. :(

***** UPDATED: It might not be true. Nobody else who responded has seen it on their news station and it has not been announced on CNN

***** UPDATED: It looks like it is NOT true. The person started the thread several minutes ago and cannot verify it and nobody else has seen it on the news. So it looks like the Pope is alive.
 
Lisa loves Pooh said:
INCORRECT--absolutely WRONG!!!!

rhythm method is no longer taught--it was based on a women's history...not the current symptoms. NFP is the current method and is formally called the Sympto-Thermo method...it is highly scientific and highly accurate and highly effective. You do not get 10 month gestation babies with NFP as happened with Rhythm.


"Modern Rhythm

Finding 'Safe' Sex Days

By Sarah Yang
WebMD Feature Reviewed By Craig H. Kliger






Jan. 1, 2001 -- Nathan and Kathy Sendan begin each day with a pen, paper, and digital thermometer. The El Sobrante, Calif., couple dutifully record Kathy's basal body temperature before they even think of drinking their morning coffee. Then they combine the temperature readings with other physiological data to track Kathy's fertility cycle and, in effect, to time sex.


Such is the routine for those who practice natural family planning, a method that shuns hormones, condoms, and other artificial forms of birth control. It is the only form of contraception given the stamp of approval by the Catholic Church, but many proponents see a growing interest among non-Catholics as well.


Joseph Stanford, MD, assistant professor of family and preventive medicine at the University of Utah and former president of American Academy of Natural Family Planning, estimates that as many as 40% of those now practicing this technique are non-Catholics. Natural family planning "offers an alternative where you don't have to mess up your physiology -- you're more in tune with your body, and there are no side effects," Stanford says.


"It's not just a Catholic thing anymore," says Patrick Homan, the western region field director for the Couple to Couple League, an Ohio-based institute whose 1,351 teachers offer instruction on natural family planning. "Our numbers have been going up for the last five to six years."


Indeed, the Sendans are not Catholic, but they chose natural family planning because of dissatisfaction with the pill. "I liked the idea of not putting chemicals in my body," says Kathy Sendan.


She recalls being "grumpy all the time" during the three years she was taking oral contraceptives. She also had a more specific health concern: "I have epilepsy, and the [antiseizure medication could] have made the birth control pill less effective," she says.


Numbers Remain Small


To be sure, the number of people choosing natural family planning still remains small. According to a 1995 survey conducted by the National Center for Health Statistics, only 1.5% of women aged 15-44 reported using periodic abstinence as a means of contraception. That trails the 17.3% of women choosing the pill, the most popular form of reversible contraception. Female sterilization was the most popular method at 17.8%, followed by the condom at 13.1%. Advocates of natural family planning say their efforts are hampered by the stigma of the "old" calendar rhythm method, which relied on the expectation that ovulation occurs on Day 14 of a 28-day cycle, and resulted in numerous "surprise" pregnancies.


In fact, menstrual cycles can vary from one woman to the next, and for many women, from one month to the next. Stress or illness, for instance, can disrupt even the most regular cycles. Such inherent variability was recently demonstrated in a study of 221 healthy women, published in the British Medical Journal in November 2000. Using daily urine tests to check for hormonal evidence of ovulation, researchers from the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences found that even though clinical guidelines assume the average woman is fertile between days 10 and 17 of her menstrual cycle, only 30% of the women studied had their window of fertility fall entirely within that time period. Even women with reportedly regular cycles had a 10% chance of being fertile "on any given day of their cycle between days six and 21," the researchers wrote.


"What was surprising to us is the fact that not only were fertile days coming early in the cycle, but late when a woman thinks she's on the end of her cycle," says Allen J. Wilcox, MD, PhD, chief of epidemiology at the NIEHS and lead author of the study. "We're just putting numbers on something people had a sense of before."


The researchers also point out that most of the women in the study were between the ages of 25 and 35. Teenagers and women nearing menopause tend to have even more unpredictable cycles.


It's Not Guesswork


Homan calls the calendar rhythm method "a guessing game, pure and simple," but emphasizes that there is more to natural family planning than just counting days. The more modern variations rely upon physiological signs such as changes in cervical discharge, body temperature, cervix position, or if it's the "sympto-thermal" method, a combination of all three, to signal whether a woman is fertile. "Modern natural family planning doesn't try to predict anything," he says. "It's, 'What you see is what you are.'"


Using these indicators, he says, a woman should be able to tell when she is in the preovulation, fertile, or postfertile phase of her cycle. Couples attempting to avoid pregnancy either can abstain from sex during the fertile phase or use other forms of protection.


Done correctly, it can be highly effective, says Stanford from the University of Utah. Stanford co-authored a study of 1,876 couples using a method of natural family planning that relied upon changes in cervical mucus to chart fertility. The study, published in the June 1998 issue of the Journal of Reproductive Medicine, found the technique had an impressive 96% effectiveness rate in preventing pregnancy, comparing favorably to condoms and diaphragms, though still less reliable than the pill or sterilization.


So why aren't more people embracing a birth control method that is free, safe, and effective?


For one thing, natural family planning is not widely promoted among healthcare professionals, says Ron Gronsky, PhD, professor of materials sciences at the University of California at Berkeley. "It's a lot easier for a practicing physician to prescribe [a pill] than to discuss and counsel," says Gronsky, who with his wife, Andrea, teaches natural family planning to other couples.


Andrea Gronsky recalls how information on natural family planning was even scarcer two decades ago. "When we first got married, we didn't know how to do it" because guidance was hard to find, she says. She says she used breastfeeding, which can stave off ovulation and menstruation, as a form of contraception after the birth of their first child. Soon after, the Gronskys, both of whom are Catholic, switched to the sympto-thermal method of family planning, which they have used for 26 years.


Not for Everyone


But the Gronskys also acknowledge that natural family planning isn't for everyone. The method, they say, is best suited for stable, monogamous couples, and they limit those they train to engaged or married couples.


Natural family planning also "involves more effort," says Lindy Pasos, development director for Planned Parenthood Mar Monte in Nevada. "Our position is that we're thrilled that people are using family planning and thinking about when they want to have children." But she says checking physiological signs every day takes discipline and more commitment than many people are willing to make.


Some also may find it difficult to cope with the seven- to 10-day abstinence period when the woman is fertile. "Sexual spontaneity in this country is a big deal," says Pasos. "Many people don't want to think about birth control all the time."


And because this method offers no protection against sexually transmitted diseases (unlike, for example, condoms), it is not an acceptable choice for those with multiple sexual partners.


Still, many proponents of natural family planning find it easy to follow the routine once they get used to it. "The measurements you take every day are really easy," says Beth, a doctoral student at the University of California at Berkeley. She and her husband, Peter, who asked that their last name be withheld, started using natural family planning a year ago. "The temperature part is a piece of cake."


Best of all, she says, she has gained more control of her health and has become her body's best expert. "I'm actually proud of how much I know about my body now," says Beth. "I notice changes I'm going through every month. I know my fertility cycle. I feel more in touch with my body."


Sarah Yang is a freelance writer in El Cerrito, Ca. She is a regular contributor to WebMD.



It's the same thing, with a few extra temperature measurements :rolleyes:
 
Deb in IA said:
"Modern Rhythm

Finding 'Safe' Sex Days

By Sarah Yang
WebMD Feature Reviewed By Craig H. Kliger






Jan. 1, 2001 -- Nathan and Kathy Sendan begin each day with a pen, paper, and digital thermometer. The El Sobrante, Calif., couple dutifully record Kathy's basal body temperature before they even think of drinking their morning coffee. Then they combine the temperature readings with other physiological data to track Kathy's fertility cycle and, in effect, to time sex.


Such is the routine for those who practice natural family planning, a method that shuns hormones, condoms, and other artificial forms of birth control. It is the only form of contraception given the stamp of approval by the Catholic Church, but many proponents see a growing interest among non-Catholics as well.


Joseph Stanford, MD, assistant professor of family and preventive medicine at the University of Utah and former president of American Academy of Natural Family Planning, estimates that as many as 40% of those now practicing this technique are non-Catholics. Natural family planning "offers an alternative where you don't have to mess up your physiology -- you're more in tune with your body, and there are no side effects," Stanford says.


"It's not just a Catholic thing anymore," says Patrick Homan, the western region field director for the Couple to Couple League, an Ohio-based institute whose 1,351 teachers offer instruction on natural family planning. "Our numbers have been going up for the last five to six years."


Indeed, the Sendans are not Catholic, but they chose natural family planning because of dissatisfaction with the pill. "I liked the idea of not putting chemicals in my body," says Kathy Sendan.


She recalls being "grumpy all the time" during the three years she was taking oral contraceptives. She also had a more specific health concern: "I have epilepsy, and the [antiseizure medication could] have made the birth control pill less effective," she says.


Numbers Remain Small


To be sure, the number of people choosing natural family planning still remains small. According to a 1995 survey conducted by the National Center for Health Statistics, only 1.5% of women aged 15-44 reported using periodic abstinence as a means of contraception. That trails the 17.3% of women choosing the pill, the most popular form of reversible contraception. Female sterilization was the most popular method at 17.8%, followed by the condom at 13.1%. Advocates of natural family planning say their efforts are hampered by the stigma of the "old" calendar rhythm method, which relied on the expectation that ovulation occurs on Day 14 of a 28-day cycle, and resulted in numerous "surprise" pregnancies.


In fact, menstrual cycles can vary from one woman to the next, and for many women, from one month to the next. Stress or illness, for instance, can disrupt even the most regular cycles. Such inherent variability was recently demonstrated in a study of 221 healthy women, published in the British Medical Journal in November 2000. Using daily urine tests to check for hormonal evidence of ovulation, researchers from the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences found that even though clinical guidelines assume the average woman is fertile between days 10 and 17 of her menstrual cycle, only 30% of the women studied had their window of fertility fall entirely within that time period. Even women with reportedly regular cycles had a 10% chance of being fertile "on any given day of their cycle between days six and 21," the researchers wrote.


"What was surprising to us is the fact that not only were fertile days coming early in the cycle, but late when a woman thinks she's on the end of her cycle," says Allen J. Wilcox, MD, PhD, chief of epidemiology at the NIEHS and lead author of the study. "We're just putting numbers on something people had a sense of before."


The researchers also point out that most of the women in the study were between the ages of 25 and 35. Teenagers and women nearing menopause tend to have even more unpredictable cycles.


It's Not Guesswork


Homan calls the calendar rhythm method "a guessing game, pure and simple," but emphasizes that there is more to natural family planning than just counting days. The more modern variations rely upon physiological signs such as changes in cervical discharge, body temperature, cervix position, or if it's the "sympto-thermal" method, a combination of all three, to signal whether a woman is fertile. "Modern natural family planning doesn't try to predict anything," he says. "It's, 'What you see is what you are.'"


Using these indicators, he says, a woman should be able to tell when she is in the preovulation, fertile, or postfertile phase of her cycle. Couples attempting to avoid pregnancy either can abstain from sex during the fertile phase or use other forms of protection.


Done correctly, it can be highly effective, says Stanford from the University of Utah. Stanford co-authored a study of 1,876 couples using a method of natural family planning that relied upon changes in cervical mucus to chart fertility. The study, published in the June 1998 issue of the Journal of Reproductive Medicine, found the technique had an impressive 96% effectiveness rate in preventing pregnancy, comparing favorably to condoms and diaphragms, though still less reliable than the pill or sterilization.


So why aren't more people embracing a birth control method that is free, safe, and effective?


For one thing, natural family planning is not widely promoted among healthcare professionals, says Ron Gronsky, PhD, professor of materials sciences at the University of California at Berkeley. "It's a lot easier for a practicing physician to prescribe [a pill] than to discuss and counsel," says Gronsky, who with his wife, Andrea, teaches natural family planning to other couples.


Andrea Gronsky recalls how information on natural family planning was even scarcer two decades ago. "When we first got married, we didn't know how to do it" because guidance was hard to find, she says. She says she used breastfeeding, which can stave off ovulation and menstruation, as a form of contraception after the birth of their first child. Soon after, the Gronskys, both of whom are Catholic, switched to the sympto-thermal method of family planning, which they have used for 26 years.


Not for Everyone


But the Gronskys also acknowledge that natural family planning isn't for everyone. The method, they say, is best suited for stable, monogamous couples, and they limit those they train to engaged or married couples.


Natural family planning also "involves more effort," says Lindy Pasos, development director for Planned Parenthood Mar Monte in Nevada. "Our position is that we're thrilled that people are using family planning and thinking about when they want to have children." But she says checking physiological signs every day takes discipline and more commitment than many people are willing to make.


Some also may find it difficult to cope with the seven- to 10-day abstinence period when the woman is fertile. "Sexual spontaneity in this country is a big deal," says Pasos. "Many people don't want to think about birth control all the time."


And because this method offers no protection against sexually transmitted diseases (unlike, for example, condoms), it is not an acceptable choice for those with multiple sexual partners.


Still, many proponents of natural family planning find it easy to follow the routine once they get used to it. "The measurements you take every day are really easy," says Beth, a doctoral student at the University of California at Berkeley. She and her husband, Peter, who asked that their last name be withheld, started using natural family planning a year ago. "The temperature part is a piece of cake."


Best of all, she says, she has gained more control of her health and has become her body's best expert. "I'm actually proud of how much I know about my body now," says Beth. "I notice changes I'm going through every month. I know my fertility cycle. I feel more in touch with my body."


Sarah Yang is a freelance writer in El Cerrito, Ca. She is a regular contributor to WebMD.



It's the same thing, with a few extra temperature measurements :rolleyes:


I don't know if it were your intentions or not...but the article just confirmed what Lisa was saying.
 
JennyMominRI said:
Well,I was hoping for nice..

And you think fordfamily's post was nice? :confused3 Calling Church followers naive, etc.?

But, seriously, people actually think the Church teaches that and that absolutley amazes me and, yes, makes me laugh. I really didn't think that was mean.
 
And you think fordfamily's post was nice? Calling Church followers naive, etc.?​

ACk... You mis read me,or I misposted... I was on your side adding to your comments about that post. Sorry if I was unclear
 
Deb in IA said:
It's the same thing, with a few extra temperature measurements :rolleyes:

Not even close to the same thing. Rhythm method counted 14 days from a woman's last period and said "Don't have sex on day 10-17 following a woman's cycle." NFP is not even close to the old rhythm method. It relies on physiological changes in the woman's body.
 


Disney Vacation Planning. Free. Done for You.
Our Authorized Disney Vacation Planners are here to provide personalized, expert advice, answer every question, and uncover the best discounts. Let Dreams Unlimited Travel take care of all the details, so you can sit back, relax, and enjoy a stress-free vacation.
Start Your Disney Vacation
Disney EarMarked Producer






DIS Facebook DIS youtube DIS Instagram DIS Pinterest DIS Tiktok DIS Twitter

Add as a preferred source on Google

Back
Top Bottom