California Grill

[YoHo]

1: I've not seen the new Poly pool, I'm speaking of the old one.


2: Scoop, I agree with regards to the Observation dek, but not the pools. People from outside the WDW resort did not have free reign only people from inside.

Dancing Bear, your point is well, pointless. Of course there are going to be fluctuations with opening of amenities NOW. If you upgrade the pool NOW then yes, if you had opened the resort with a better pool to begin with, then you don't have such issues.

Further, there's a ratio of quality of experience vs convienece.

SAB gets a lot more guests, because the quality of the experience is so much better then the Values or mods.
I doubt too many people from the Poly, even with it's old less fancy waterslide and more simple pool spent much time there. They had their pools and their bar and their view.


Now Scoop, you're right, there are much more visitors, but there's simply less amenities per visitor. So everyone suffers. That my friend is a failure of Design and planning.

 

[DancingBear]

Originally posted by YoHo
Dancing Bear, your point is well, pointless. Of course there are going to be fluctuations with opening of amenities NOW. If you upgrade the pool NOW then yes, if you had opened the resort with a better pool to begin with, then you don't have such issues.

This makes no sense. By that logic, you never would have upgraded the Poly pool NOW--you are stuck with what you first built at the resort. And since every pool has to be equal, then I guess every pool NOW would be the equivalent of the original pool at the Contemporary or the Poly.

 

[DancingBear]

Originally posted by YoHo
Now Scoop, you're right, there are much more visitors, but there's simply less amenities per visitor. So everyone suffers. That my friend is a failure of Design and planning.

Yeah, right, there are fewer amenities per visitor now than in 1971. I guess the addition of two golf courses, two huge water parks (less one much smaller one), the Boardwalk, the West Side, four miniature golf courses, etc., just don't count.

 

[YoHo]

Where did I say no new amenities were added?

Oh, right, I didn't say that, I said the ratio of Amenities to number of visitors is lower.

Sure they've added amenities, but not at the same rate that they're adding room capacity.

This is most apparent in Pools and the choice fireworks viewing.


The fact is that the assertion that some people just want a bed and a bus is not true.

There's nothing wrong with upgrading pools either, I can't fathom what deranged logic allowed you to leap to that conclusion.

My very simple point was that if you had quality pools at all the resorts, then the pool hoping would have dropped and you wouldn't have bunchs of people crowding a few high quality pools.

 

[DancingBear]

Originally posted by YoHo
There's nothing wrong with upgrading pools either, I can't fathom what deranged logic allowed you to leap to that conclusion.

That would be YOUR deranged logic above. I said unless you upgraded every pool at the same time, one would always be the newest and the best. You said that was a pointles point because the problem was created by having to upgrade pools NOW rather than building them great in the first place.

Once you concede that pools might be upgraded, as at the Poly, then you have to deal with my pointless point.

As I said before, surely not more than a very small percentage of All-Star and PC guests are skipping their perfectly nice (is not spectacular) home pools and trying to figure out how to get from their resorts to YC/BC (bus through Downtown Disney? Drive to the Dolphin lot and walk over?) to sneak into SAB. I suspect SAB has at least as many gate-crashers from the Boardwalk and the S&D, even though those other resorts have very nice pools of their own.

The vast majority of the Value guests are selecting the Values because they are willing to give up amenities like a fabulous pool or room service in exchange for the price. Yes, if they are not in the parks until late, they may be over at Downtown Disney or the Boardwalk in the evenings, or going to the Hoop de Doo Revue, or a character meal at one of the resorts, playing miniature golf, etc., but so what?

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

OK! One at a time!

Brian430:

Am I to understand that you think all resort guests should also be able to pool hop as well?

Yes!

Are you suggesting that everyone staying at Pop Century should be able to take the monorail over from the Magic Kingdom and have a little dip in the Grand Floridian pool in the middle of the day?

No.

Seems to me simply being on WDW property does not entitle you to every service that's available.

It used to. Under that grand and glorious ‘Philosophy’!!

I can guarantee you will not appreciate thousands of other people sneaking on property and

There was no “SNEAKING”. It was a clearly stated policy. Even written in the early guidebooks. I’m surprised you didn’t know that!!

Whenever I walk by the Yachtman's Steakhouse I'm jealous that I have to eat McDonald's that night. But, I don't simply walk in the restaurant and start picking off people's plates, because "that's Walt would have wanted."

How silly.

You're pointing to theming inside a theme park attraction as justification that the deluxe resorts are now the communal property for anyone who happens to be in Orlando?

Some people ‘get it’. Others do not. And we didn’t say “for anyone who happens to be in Orlando”. Just for “for anyone who happens to be staying in WDW.” After all, we’re not communists!!

This is just too weird to argue anymore.

Whatever.

 

[All Aboard]

YoHo,

A fact I know about you: The Polynesian is doubtlessly your favorite WDW resort.

A fact I learned moments ago: You've not yet seen the new Polynesian pool.

If I may voir dire the witness on his qualification on contemporary Walt Disney World policies, practices, amenities, crowding, etc...

How long has it been since you've visited WDW?

 

[Brian430]

"If only Ford had built more options into their Escort then I wouldn't have had to steal this Expedition... Stupid Ford engineers."

YoHo:

No one said that guests of the Values only want a bed and a shower.

But that's all they paid for. Either by choice or by financial reality people stay at the less expensive hotels, which, by logic, offer fewer perks. It's a trade off more than 40,000 people a day seem to find perfectly acceptable. With the exception of a handful of people here.

True, the $60 a night motel doesn't have the same amenities as the $300 a night deluxe resort. That's why it's $60!

Is this seriously a debate?

True, if Disney built more amenities into their $60 motels than those guests wouldn't have to crash the deluxe resorts. But if they built similar amenities then it would no longer be a $60 motel.

I can appreciate that you would like to have the $300 amenities for the $60 price tag – we all want more than we pay for. But just because Disney isn't giving away their product doesn't make them bad planners - nor bad people disparaging the altruistic vision of Walt who, as we all know, despised a profit.

There are many families who cannot even afford the price of admission at the Magic Kingdom, does that mean Eisner is trashing Walt's legacy? Or simply charging the market rate? Is the fact that there are people who have different income levels in this world, a problem for WDW to solve? I mean I know it's supposed to be the "happiest place on earth" – but let's not be completely naive.

Disney doesn't establish these prices - no business does. The free market establishes prices. And just because you disagree with what the market will bear for a product doesn't mean you have the right to steal it (most first graders understand that much). Nor does it mean the business is wrong – especially if millions are lining up to buy it.

Personally, I find all the WDW resorts to be a good value – even the deluxe resorts. But only when there aren't hundreds of trespassers squatting there because the MAN didn't offer enough perks at their discount motel.

In any event, if the 40,000 nightly guests at PC and AS had the same warped sense of entitlement as you do, then Disney would have to put armed guards around the deluxe pools.

In the meantime, enjoy my parking space and pool side chair. It's my pleasure to subsidize the vacation of a fellow DISboarder.

 

[YoHo]

Originally posted by gcurling
YoHo,

A fact I know about you: The Polynesian is doubtlessly your favorite WDW resort.

A fact I learned moments ago: You've not yet seen the new Polynesian pool.

If I may voir dire the witness on his qualification on contemporary Walt Disney World policies, practices, amenities, crowding, etc...

How long has it been since you've visited WDW?

Too long my friend. About 4 years now.


Is it your point to suggest that since I have not had the financial means or opportunity to return to my beloved WDW that I am somehow incapable of understanding the information provided by CMs, guests, the company and insiders? And that further, I am incapable of understanding what has changed since the year 2000.

And that further I am unable to understand that knowledge in contrast to what I have experienced in the 70's, the 80s, the 90s and 2000?

I'm fully cognizent of what has changed since my last trip And I do my best to take that into account when discussing things, but 90% of what we are discussing here are issues that began in the 90's a Time I am in fact intimately familiar with.



As for you my Dear Scoop, you're offense at my response to you twoish posts back is misplaced. I was not addressing you. You sneaked that post in while I was addressing DB.

Your questions about where I'm getting my info is I suppose a good one, Perhaps when I get home I'll quantify it. Otherwise, I'll leave it to our far more connected members to disseminate that info. And if they choose not to post in this thread anymore, then all I can say is that proves how intellegent they are compared to us.

 

[YoHo]

Brian, do me a favor,

Assuming that the search function is working around here, I'd like you to do a search on Resort Caste system.

Read the multiple threads on the topic and then if that doesn't explain where I'm coming from, I'll try to explain it to you.

At this point, I don't have the energy to rehash a topic that we've discussed repeatedly for 2+ years AGAIN.

At least this topic is approaching it from a unique angle.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Next

Lewisc:

Baron and others are missing the point.

Hmmmmmmmmm. Not starting off very good, right off the bat! I have never missed a point in my life!!! I may not have agreed with the point, but I never missed it!!

The value resorts were built (and priced) for the family that doesn't want to pay for resort amenities they don't plan on using. It's an alternative for staying offsite.

I agree!! Yes!! That is exactly why they were built!!

See? I can get the point!! I just don’t agree with it in the least!!! It is decidedly NOT Disney!!

Disney is not a hotel. It is not a store. It is not even a theme park. IT IS A SHOW!!! It is an experience!! And you do not put on a lesser show for the people in the cheap seats!! It’s true, they may be further away, but the show remains the same!! They never built a Disneyland with only “C” and “D” ticket for the people would couldn’t afford a day’s visit. No!! One price. One SHOW. One experience!! The “DISNEY” experience! And you don’t get a watered down version for a couple buck less. Conversely, you don’t get a richer version for a couple bucks more. There is only one. PERIOD!!!

You may not agree. But Walt did. And personally I’ll follow his lead rather than Lewis’s. Nothing personal you understand.

Disney used to have an inexpensive water park that MK guests could use if they wanted to take a break.

Well, you got me stumped!! What in the heck are you talking about!?!?!?!

How about using a ferry boat for fireworks viewing? Pipe in the music. Sell some beverages and dessert. You could probably accommodate a lot more guests than the CG observation deck.

I would not be opposed to this concept. HOWEVER!!! The current Disney® would not do this without charging an arm and a leg!! And I think we all know it!!

The observation deck can't handle the crowds. The elevators can't handle the crowds of people who leave the deck all at once after the fireworks end.

So what you are saying is that – for thirty years or so, it was not a problem. But suddenly, and cooinciedently at the same time Prime spots at EPCOT were being gobbled up by management and they expanded CG, it became a problem? Is that it?

Hmmmmmmmm. Funny, but somehow I just can’t give them the benefit of the doubt as you seem to do!

Yes it's about money, giving a Disney option to guests that want to spend less money.

But it really isn’t a “Disney” option. It is a “Less-Than-Disney” option. And that really has no place in the SHOW or in the philosophy, now does it!!!

I don't think calling it a "caste" system is fair.

You’re probably right. But I didn’t know what else to call that greedy system that jacked the high end out of sight, left the middle with a lot less and totally forgot the SHOW and/or experience for the lower end. Do you have an alternative name we can use for this abomination?

It's a shame that signage isn't enough and Disney had to put a fence around SAB and have CM's check resort id at other pools.

I could not agree more. It is too bad. Too bad that their planning and expenditures didn’t include more of these (or even better) so that capacity would not be reached. AH! But that would be way too much like ‘the dead guy’s’ thinking for the current regime to even consider!!

I'm not sure there's enough room on the observation deck to just handle Chief Mickey's guests who go up after dinner or before dinner let alone other guests. This is a treat that got too popular.

RIGHT!!! And why make the guests happy with something that became overwhelming popular!!?? Instead CLOSE IT DOWN!! Good God!! That’s logic for you!!!
Just one other thing:

Originally you had Disney Deluxe hotels, DTD hotels and offsite. FW was an exception.

NO! Originally Disney had Disney resorts. PERIOD!!! And they were considered VALUE resorts. They were NOT a considered deluxes!! That is a relatively recent name to justify PRICE!! Do yourself a favor and read up on it!!

 

[Lewisc]

If you want to see a real caste system look up the road. Stay in a deluxe hotel and you skip the lines, pay extra and you can skip the line once per attraction otherwise you wait in lines. That makes for an interesting debate.

I don't see the problem with restricting pool to guests of THAT hotel or restricting parts of a hotel to guests of the hotel. The value resorts have a lots of pools and the moderates have well themed pools. Guests who want a more elaborate pool can either pick a different resort or go to a water park. It's a shame that Disney closed River Country. That was a good lower cost alternative for guests who wanted to leave MK for a swim.

SAB is listed as a "min-water park". How much bigger would it have to be to accomodate guests from other resorts? Keep in mind many of the "pool crashers" are guests who want to take a break from the theme parks and are looking to the resort with quick access from the theme parks.

Sorry Baron but I don't agree. Disney has many different shows. A guest picks which show he wants. Should I be allowed to stay in a hotel without paying for a room? Of course not. A guest can decide to just visit the parks or pay extra and stay in a Disney Resort. You get a pool in all the resorts, paying extra may get you a better themed pool or a pool in a better location.

Think about it, the only amenity we're talking about are pools, parking and crowded areas of some resorts. Spas, restaurants, jogging trails, boat rentals, bike rentals are basically open to all.

Not only has Disney changed but the guests and the environment (interent and travel chanel) has changed. A sign saying the pool is for the guests of that hotel would have been enough. The fence at SAB wouldn't have been necessary.

 

[YoHo]

Disney did not always have "many different shows"

They used to have one show and it was a great show.

 

[RoutemanDan]

Originally posted by Bstanley
Yoho,



Do you have some documentation on this or is it anecdotal?

I don't doubt that when WDW opened that this was the policy, but I am surprised that it survived very many years.

<font color=red>Birnbuams Walt Disney World, 1992 -Page 201,</font>
POOLS: There are two each at the Contemporary resort,the Polynesian,the Disney Inn and Fort Wilderness resort,seven at The caribbean beach resort and four at the Villas;one at the Swan;a huge lap pool and a themed grooto pool with slide at the Dolphin;two quiet pools at The Yacht club and Beach club and Stormalong Bay,a themed pool area between the resorts featuring a sunken ship and snorkeling;two at Port Orleans;five at Dixie Landings plus Ol' Man Island,a themed pool and recreation area; and one each at The Village clubhouse,the Grand Floridian resort,Typhoon Lagoon and River Country.<b>The resort pools are for registered guests only.</b>There's no charge for admission, towels or chairs anywhere ,except at River Country and Typhoon lagoon....


------


If I remember correctly,pool hopping stopped some time around '88.

 

[Lewisc]

Originally posted by YoHo
Disney did not always have "many different shows"

They used to have one show and it was a great show.

I don't buy it. Even then they had one show for guests who stayed offsite and another show for onsite guests. The old rules don't work when you expand the theater. Go to a HS baseball game you pick any open seat, go to World Series and you pay for an reserved seat. Pay more and you get a better seat. Disney had to go from open seating to assigned seating.

Legal (non DVC) pool hopping ending in the late 80's, not recently has you previously posted.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Legal (non DVC) pool hopping ending in the late 80's, not recently has you previously posted.

It ended with Eisner!! It ended when he tossed Walt's philosophy and brought in his own. You know, the one you agree with!!

Debating on the exact date is silly. Suffice to say that pre 1984 there was ONE SHOW. There was ONE DISNEY. There was ONE EXPERIENCE. There was ONE MAGIC!!

Now, as you seem to like, they sell it piecemeal. As a commodity, not a performance, not a comprehensive SHOW.

To me that makes them ordinary. A run-of-the-mill company. Nothing special at all. Like the place up the road or a baseball game!!

Oh! Wait!! You already know that!!

 

[DC7800]

Originally posted by RoutemanDan
<font color=red>Birnbuams Walt Disney World, 1992 -Page 201,</font>
POOLS: There are two each at the Contemporary resort,the Polynesian,the Disney Inn and Fort Wilderness resort,seven at The caribbean beach resort and four at the Villas;one at the Swan;a huge lap pool and a themed grooto pool with slide at the Dolphin;two quiet pools at The Yacht club and Beach club and Stormalong Bay,a themed pool area between the resorts featuring a sunken ship and snorkeling;two at Port Orleans;five at Dixie Landings plus Ol' Man Island,a themed pool and recreation area; and one each at The Village clubhouse,the Grand Floridian resort,Typhoon Lagoon and River Country.<b>The resort pools are for registered guests only.</b>There's no charge for admission, towels or chairs anywhere ,except at River Country and Typhoon lagoon....

The 1994 Birnbaum Guide, pg. 207 (and within the "swimming" description for each resort) specifically notes that the Yacht & Beach Club, Dixie Landings, and Port Orleans pools are restricted to guests of those resorts. There are no restrictions for any other pool (sections of Bay Lake are also available), except to say that the pools are not open to day guests (off-site guests). River Country is suggested in that case.

The obvious implication is that you may swim anywhere you wish, except for the above restrictions. I don't have a guide handy '95-'99.

 

[Lewisc]

Originally posted by DVC-Landbaron
It ended with Eisner!! It ended when he tossed Walt's philosophy and brought in his own. You know, the one you agree with!!

Debating on the exact date is silly.

I was referring to YoHo's post

And for the record, pool hoping was only shut down a few short years ago

I agree the exact date is irrelevent but legal (non DVC) pool hopping ended a long time ago.


The funny thing is most of this thread is about nothing. Unless there is overcrowding CM's usually look the other way when people want to "pool crash". One of the employees at the Grotto pool (is it OK to call S/D employees CM's?) told me they often see people walking from outside the resort go to the pool. I asked what they do. He said if they're not crowded they usually leave them alone, they might stay at S/D next stay. He said when they're crowded he'll leave them alone for 20 minutes or so and then politely ask them to leave. He said people understand. Seems like a reasonable approach to me. I stayed at S/D because the available rate was about the same as Disney wanted for a moderate.

Sorry I have no trouble with the tiered pricing. Other than July 4 are guests ever asked to leave the POLY beach? Aren't value guests allowed to rent boats and bikes at deluxe resorts?

I think Disney should have some reasonably priced condo type accomodations for people who don't want to buy into DVC but that's a completely different discussion.

 

[YoHo]

Well then, it seems that it did not "end in the 80s.

I didn't comment on it, but Routeman Dan's post says specifically "Registered Guests"

It does not say "REgistered guests of that hotel"


Ergo, Any registered guest of the WDW resort qualified.

Day guests were NOT registered guests.

Therefore, pool hopping was allowed at least until 94.

Although I agree with Baron, my few short years ago comment aside, the only point was who mismanged things and took it away, not when specifically within that managment time it was taken away.



Thankyou drive through please.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

The funny thing is most of this thread is about nothing.

Then I'm afraid it is you who misses the point!! It is NOT what you can get away with. It is NOT depending on some CM who happens to "GET IT" It IS about the philosophy of Disney. It IS about Walt's Disney vs. Disney®.

It is about a very SPECIAL company doing business in a unique “outside the box” and exceptional way vs. a company that is ordinary, follow-the pack and mundane.

I know that this is hard for you to understand, but this was really, honest-to-God, the thinking that they had in mind when Disneyland and later WDW was created!! And it was indeed… ah… well… SPECIAL!! It was what brought me to the dance in the first place.

Their creativity was amazing on the screen. In animation especially. And they brought that unique talent to the 3-D realm as well!! They did not play follow the leader. They were the leaders!!! They did not “DO” or “manage” things – corporate!! They put on a SHOW!! THAT was paramount above everything else!