California Grill

[crusader]

Lowering value and demand at Disney is Always a bad thing.

yeah.

So I agree with the idea of giving first priority to Contemporary guests and taking advance rsvp's.

I disagree with charging a no show. If you fail to appear than that makes the experience even better for those who are there. Disney would never have charged a penalty fee to a guest because they didn't show up at a free venue.

.

 

[bretsyboo]

the difference is if I were god, I would be a god of wrath and punishment like from the old testiment.

 

[crusader]

HA!

 

[raidermatt]

I honestly haven't kept up with the changes at the Cinderella breakfast, but do they charge a no-show? I agree that is tricky, as deserved or not, its going to anger some folks. Perhaps just the threat is enough.

As a side note, charging no-shows is tricky anyway. Visa/MasterCard (and I'm sure AMEX) prohibit it except in very specific situations. For example, if you book a 5 night hotel stay and don't show, they can only bill you for the first night. The idea being the hotel only held the room for you for one night, and can re-book it going forward. I'd think it would be tough for a dinner reservation (or deck reservation), as it could just be given to a walk-in.


DC, no system has infinite capacity, but I was purposely trying not to get bogged down into details of that particular situation. The fact is, these types of situations will arise, and sometimes it will involve things of a much bigger scale than the CG deck. That's the point.

The real question is how do you prevent them when possible, and deal with them when they aren't prevented?

YoHo and Boo have got it.... planning, AND the implementation of said plans.

For example, we've all heard about the monorail plans that exist, but have been delayed/cancelled instead of implemented. That begs the question, if there was a need to expand the monorail system, and its not done, doesn't the situation that inspired the plans still exist? And if there's no monorail expansion, how will it be dealt with?

What's the plan?

Again, I don't want to get into a discussion of the merits of the monorail, because that's not the point. The point is that these situations are caused either by actions Disney has taken, or actions they may have not taken for whatever reason.

As Boo said, when you build thousands of hotel rooms, but don't put things there that folks want to visit, its natural that a greater imbalance is going to be created at the places at which folks do want to hang out or use. Things like the CG deck, Poly beach, Monorail, etc....

Shutting these things off from certain guests just isn't the optimal way to deal with these situations. I know that's how a lot of things do work, but a trip to WDW isn't supposed to be like that. They have the resources and the ability to design integrated solutions to avoid most of these problems. By doing so, they create an even greater demand to visit this special "World".

That's what they need to be doing, not just throwing bandaids on things.

And then when things do arise, the solution needs to keep in mind the overriding goal, which is to keep options open, not restrict them.

The CG deck may not be a big deal to many people, but without the right planning, the next situation might be.

 

[DancingBear]

Several comments:

--The idea that (i) there is no "master plan", and (ii) if they just did enough planning, they could avoid any problems of these sorts, is preposterous.

--The process proposed by betsyboo is incredibly labor-intensive. And, query whether it really leads overall to higher guest satisfaction. There are bound to be folks who become dissatisfied because they got charged $10 for missing their fireworks viewing reservation but after all it's because the bus from AK takes too long....

--The Contemporary observation deck was not designed as an amenity to serve the entire current WDW visitor population. The fact that it was there and we used to be able to access it was largely serendipitous. The fact that it's gone now is not really that big a deal in the scheme of things. As with Mickey butter and the many other bygone items, it has to be balanced against other new offerings, like seeing Illuminations fireworks from the Boardwalk area, or seeing animals at the AKL viewing area.

--Disney recognizes the interest in this sort of thing, and so has provided the lower deck viewing area, with the music pumped in (an alternative "secret viewing area." An earlier post said they were considering making the wedding pavilion available also.

 

[airlarry!]

Not to belabor the point that Mr. Boo is oh-so-very-correct again, but the difference lies in that ugly world, "Philosophy."

My dear Peter, we are not proposing that the Contemporary guests be haranged at all hours of the night by impish little street urchins bent on ruining Mr. Darling and his lovely wife and three kids' vacation experience.

Rather, we should look at this problem in the macro way, as Yoho! suggested.

There should never have been a need for Disney to EVER increase capacity at the Cali Grill and eliminate the benefit of watching the fireworks for free.

Not if you have an intelligent hard working community of free thinkers who realize that, yes people will come and play in your little resort if you make it worth their while.

But the intelligentsia cry that the Poop Century resort is a wonderful additoin to the World, that it is needed and wanted and beloved. Yet no one clamors to sit besides the giant cowboy boot blocking traffic from the Country inn to the ASMusic dining hall, do they?

A master plan, which takes into account the fact that resorts well planned on the monorail and near EPCOT and the other two parks will actually spread the good benefits for all those in the World. There should be a ring of resorts near every park, and when Illuminations blasts off from EPCOT, you should have the thrill of being right there. When the imagineers get off their duff and invent a noiseless, nighttime extravaganza for Animal Kingdom, the people who stay at the two new resorts on the edges of the AK should have the benefit of being in the park or watching it from the balcony of the African themed restaurant....etcetera ad nauseum.

(Oh and by the way...saying that fireworks should only be experienced from the Main Street only tells me that you've never experienced them out on the pier near the Grand Floridian blasting in a wholly different, unique, and quite unexpectedly pleasant show above you. There is more than one way to enjoy things in the world...at least that's what intelligent design would provide).

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

How interesting!! On page two I suggested a crowd control system implemented on the second floor!! It was scoffed at!! Or totally ignored!! Mr. Boo rewords it (very nicely, I might add) and it turns out to be the best thing since sliced bread!! I can see I’m losing ground here!! I better post more often!!

I congratulate you Mr. Boo, for putting it in words so plain that they finally “GOT IT”!! It was something AV could always do and it seems you have that talent too!!

To the heart of the matter.

I could not care less about watching the fireworks from the balcony on the 15th floor. Personally I have used it (I think) twice, three times tops!! But I ALWAYS suggest it to Disney virgins. It is IMPRESSIVE!!!! And it caps a wonderful night that isn’t spent in the parks (i. e. first night there, water park day, beach day, etc.) It is different. It is special. And it is FREE!!!! A wonderful thing at Disney!!

As an isolated issue, this does not warrant even a page of discussion. HOWEVER!! It is highly indicative of the callous disregard that Disney management has for the guest, the experience and the magic!! And it points to the disgusting and radical change in the philosophy regarding profit centers and greed!!!

It has nothing whatsoever to do with growing crowds, restaurant reconfiguration, or waiting at the elevator. All those things are no brainers to the company that invented crowd control and then refined it to a fine art. That kind of talk is just plain silly!!! If they wanted to they could make it work. The point is they didn’t want to!!

Please read how Mr. Boo entered this conversation…

This is my very favorite thread of all time.

Here we have something Disney offered, that guests really enjoyed.

And they enjoyed it to such a degree that its popularity grew.

And its popularity grew to such an extent that...Disney needs to close it?

And they are gaining praise for doing so. I love it.

Does this make sense to anyone here? Did you read it!! Do you comprehend it? Does anyone disagree with the content!?!? THIS is what it’s all about people!!! Mr. Boo hit the nail very squarely on the head.

And if you couple it with just one other thought from YoHo, we could have saved ourselves all these pages of armchair Imagineering. It is not about the nuts and bolts of a design/flow concept, it is about the philosophy behind it!!! So read on to YoHo’s…

Now link it up with

But maybe the best solution would be to create more hidden spots to view the fireworks from?

Now before I get lampooned, I am NOT advocating this!!!! I pulled out this quote because it finally made me realize why I am so adamant about this issue!!

Disney has “created more hidden spots to view the fireworks”!!! They are VERY good at it!!! They have taken virtually every prime spot in EPCOT and roped it off!! All those hidden spots that I (and probably you) found years ago, that were hidden, special, and way cool!!!! And they have taken the territory and put a fore sale sign on it. And they get BIG TIME BUCKS for it!! So that spot near England that I found in 1981 is gone. That corner by the water near Italy – GONE!! That French lakeside – GONE. And you all probably have your own that suddenly disappeared, stolen from us over the years!!

Now, call me callous and jaded, but I can’t help thinking about some eager WDW exec. out to make point with the boss thinking to himself how PRIME(!!!) the contemporary is for just such a money making venture! And low and behold, we now learn that just such an exploratory investigation took place!! But it was not feasible. (And I quite agree.) But they were still aware of the potential. Meaning that they were giving something away, that they could charge for!!

So they took the only step available to their profit oriented and money grubbing minds! They barred the view for free! Now if you want to enjoy the show, cough up 40 bucks a plate and we’ll give you a peek! Otherwise you are SOL, buddy!!!

All the other “REASONS” are just spin put out by the justifiers and excusers and the “DISNEY CAN DO NO WRONG” crowd.

Lastly:

Disney recognizes the interest in this sort of thing, and so has provided the lower deck viewing area, with the music pumped in (an alternative "secret viewing area." An earlier post said they were considering making the wedding pavilion available also.

That is BS and you know it!! Unless, of course, you’ve never compared the two. I have. And there is NO COMPARISON!! That 4th floor experience is not even close!!!

Just more “justifying" and "excusing" spin from the "DCDNW" crowd!!! I really don’t know how you can believe some of this nonsense!!!

 

[YoHo]

Originally posted by DancingBear
Several comments:

--The idea that (i) there is no "master plan", and (ii) if they just did enough planning, they could avoid any problems of these sorts, is preposterous.

--The process proposed by betsyboo is incredibly labor-intensive. And, query whether it really leads overall to higher guest satisfaction. There are bound to be folks who become dissatisfied because they got charged $10 for missing their fireworks viewing reservation but after all it's because the bus from AK takes too long....

It seems to me that these two thought contradict each other. If Disney had been planning well, then their bus service wouldn't be an issue would it? The only issue would be the guests leaving at the right time.


AS for your scoffing at the idea that they don't have a master plan, WDW has been operating without a master plan for yeas now. It's pretty well known. You know, they used to have the plan updated and where the guests could see it and they've been running around like chickens with their heads cut off with no grand plan for years.


So a reject your rejection.

 

[DancingBear]

There is no conflict between those points. My reference to the "bus from AK" was just one hypothetical excuse that would be proferred by one of the unhappy guests who got hit with a monetary penalty for failing to show up for the fireworks. The point was that the implementation of that system (including the possible reserved areas for CR guests, etc.) would be a nightmare.

As to the benefits of planning, show me the resort, or community, or whatever, where visionary land planners have been able to anticipate and plan solutions for every issue that might occur over thirty years of development. It doesn't exist.

Where is the evidence that there is no master plan? Do you really think that all of the various projects undertaken in the past ten years have just been pursued higgledy-piggledy? As I look at the resort-wide map and track the developments over the past several years, I can see very logical patterns of development:

--Wide World of Sports is located on the perimeter of the property, next to 192, where other types of development wouldn't work.

--AKL, AK and Pop Century are lined up along Osceola Parkway, which has some effect of spreading out traffic.

--All-Stars take up a large area between 192 and Osceola Parkway, which again might not be good for other development.

--The Boardwalk area has been fully developed in a manner which effectively links Epcot and the Studios.

--West End fills out the space between Old Key West (and across the golf course) and Disney Marketplace, and Saratoga Springs brackets the other side of the Marketplace.

Do you really think this all just "happened" looking at each project in isolation?

 

[KNWVIKING]

Do you believe Disney closed the observation deck for the same reason as they roped off the "secret" viewing areas in Epcot ?

I don't like the money grab route Disney took with Epcot, but I have no problem with the deck because I feel they are two entirely different issues.

 

[bretsyboo]

this "nightmare" happens every day at every single airport.

You check in, you let them know you plan on honoring it. You call ahead, you tell them yes I am on my way to use my spot, or no I'm not on my way to use my spot.

I don't think the world will come crashing down.

so you get say...2 hours to cancel, you may argue the amount of time, but it's pointless, I'm just throwing out a number, whatever time works best is fine by me. Cancel within that 2 hours gives them plenty of time to call someone on a waiting list. Hey, can you make it? Yes? Great. Not there? 5 minutes to call back, sorry, we did what we could. This was of course explained to you when you were put on the waiting list.

Fireworks going to start in 5 minutes and you were supposed to check in at the latest a half an hour before and there is still no word from you? Someone else gets to go back up. Some things you have to pad time for.

And you know what? I don't care. say you let 75 people go up there. If they show up late, someone has already taken their places and they have to stand in the back. Make it 79 people, not a huge difference.

The point is someone else gets to experience it, and in order to make sure people don't just "politely" not show up...there needs to be a way to give them the incentive of either making sure they show, ormaking sure they inform disney that they aren't going to show.

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

I don't like the money grab route Disney took with Epcot, but I have no problem with the deck because I feel they are two entirely different issues.

How are they different!?!?! They even tried to make it a separate cost! And when that didn't work they STOPPED the freebie!!!

No more free fireworks!!
Buy the meal!!

Now the only way to ‘view the view’ is to pay through the so-so and fairly overpriced restaurant.

So, tell me again how that's different from paying colossal prices for tea and cookies in EPCOT!?!?!?

DancingBear:

Do you really think this all just "happened" looking at each project in isolation?

Absolutely!! Otherwise YoHo’s concern (as well as many others) would have been answered.

We’re not talking about some vague idea of what would be nice to have. Or even some fluid “concept” that can rationalize hotel, road, theme park, parking lot and everything else placement. NO!! We are talking about a firm PLAN which takes into account infrastructure, transportation, future development, and everything else in the world. You know, like they had BEFORE 1984!!! Something that really took a little thought!!

 

[YoHo]

Ugh, Dancing Bear, you've completely missed the point.

Of course the original master plan can't account for every single possible occurance and nobody ever said the master plan was static. What the master plan did and does is lays out a why for the what.


Sure, they've made good land managment and utilization choices, but did they choose the best most cohesive themes? Did they accomidate for the increased traffic to and from those resorts. Did they plan for the increase in traffic from the "cheapies" too the Deluxes?


As has been suggested here. You're increasing the onsite capacity in terms of rooms, but not increasing the amenities to match. They've intentionally allowed people to use the amenities of other resorts, because that's what Disney does, but there is no increased capacity there. Instead they've tried to funnel people into Boardwalk and DTD. Which is great and all good for them for creating these places, but that doesn't really fix the problem. That's lacking a master plan. A master plan dictates how you're going to disperse people effectivly. How you're going to utilize the land is just a small portion of that.

Disney used to be very good at this kind of thing. It used to be their greatest achievment. Now they don't even bother thinking about it.

 

[DancingBear]

Originally posted by DVC-Landbaron
That is BS and you know it!! Unless, of course, you’ve never compared the two. I have. And there is NO COMPARISON!! That 4th floor experience is not even close!!!

I have compared the two, and of course it is not the same experience, but the point is that there was some recognition of the issue and an attempt by Disney to provide some substitute experience with the sound piped in, although there was no clear revenue-enhancing reason for them to do so.

 

[DancingBear]

Originally posted by YoHo
As has been suggested here. You're increasing the onsite capacity in terms of rooms, but not increasing the amenities to match. They've intentionally allowed people to use the amenities of other resorts, because that's what Disney does, but there is no increased capacity there. Instead they've tried to funnel people into Boardwalk and DTD. Which is great and all good for them for creating these places, but that doesn't really fix the problem. That's lacking a master plan. A master plan dictates how you're going to disperse people effectivly. How you're going to utilize the land is just a small portion of that.

Disney used to be very good at this kind of thing. It used to be their greatest achievment. Now they don't even bother thinking about it.

Just when was Disney "very good at this kind of thing?" Did they develop some other large, multi-park, multi-resort property somewhere I'm not aware of?

Were the earlier plans perfectly realized? They put Carribean Beach where it is--why, exactly? The Fort Wilderness traffic pattern works brilliantly, right? The Marketplace was close to nothing but the licensed hotels because...???

I know Baron is the self-designated history teacher around hear, but does anyone else remember that Epcot (1981) was criticized for abandoning the efficient hub and spoke design of Disneyland and Magic Kingdom?

 

[YoHo]

1955-1983 RIP.


I myself have mixed feeling for Epcot's lack of the spoke/wheel although Future world does have it and the Friendship Launches mitigate the issue for WS.

I see the problem here, you're under the mistaken assumption that because they were masters of traffic flow and dare I say it urban design that their every move must have been utter perfection, because surely if it wasn't absolutly perfect, then they couldn't be masters.

What a crock. Read any book on the creation of Walt DIsney World. Look at the attention to detail and planning that went into the first 10 years and then read on as it gets worse and worse. Hell, Disney doesn't even want to have the Legislative power that allowed them to create those innovations anymore. They just don't care as a corporation. All they care about is Snowglobe sales.

Don't want to add monorails or other transportation options, because it isn't a direct revenue producer and Busses are fine. We're an entertainment company not an engineering firm or an urban planning firm. What do you mean RETLAW used to do that stuff too? You're crazy. Here, have a copy of Peter Pan 4 Hook line and Sinker. It has the latest Disney teen Queen's song on it. That's right, don't look at the man behind the curtain.

 

[DancingBear]

Originally posted by bretsyboo
this "nightmare" happens every day at every single airport.

You check in, you let them know you plan on honoring it. You call ahead, you tell them yes I am on my way to use my spot, or no I'm not on my way to use my spot.

I don't think the world will come crashing down.

Nobody said it couldn't be done, but you have to do a bit of cost-benefit analysis here. Is it really worthwhile in terms of increased guest satisfaction to go through the rigamarole of having CMs take and enforce a reservation system for fireworks viewing?

 

[airlarry!]

Epcot's abandonment of the hub and spoke design was idiotic in my opinion....but there is a difference, you would agree Sir DB, between experimenting and willy-nilly expansion.

You are the first person that I can recall to make the statement that, if I understand you correctly, that expansion at the WDW resort under M. Ei$ner has been 'masterly' planned.

I suggest to you that a closer examination of your resort map would lead to the opposite reaction.

On what basis has the adding of the values, the two new parks, the EPCOT hotels, the DTD area, the water parks...how have any of these been more than the random development of unused property (oh how I wish I had handy that quote of Eisner's--how there was so much underutilized property just waiting to be developed). Ei$ner was sitting there with plenty of land, and he threw jacks across the table knowing that he had the reach to scoop them up. It is not as you intimate impossible to design this resort with expansion and with traffic flow and do a better job than the Disney Development Corporation.

How does this relate to the little balcony at the Cali Grille, you ask?

Planning. Where they err in the micro, they err in the macro.

 

[DancingBear]

Originally posted by YoHo
1955-1983 RIP.

I myself have mixed feeling for Epcot's lack of the spoke/wheel although Future world does have it and the Friendship Launches mitigate the issue for WS.

I see the problem here, you're under the mistaken assumption that because they were masters of traffic flow and dare I say it urban design that their every move must have been utter perfection, because surely if it wasn't absolutly perfect, then they couldn't be masters.

What a crock. Read any book on the creation of Walt DIsney World.

I assure you that I have ready many, many books on the creation of WDW. Several points:

--Until WDW, Disney wasn't doing anything close to "urban design". Managing pedestrian traffic patterns around Disneyland doesn't make them "masters" of doing something like WDW.

--So then they get this immense piece of property in Florida, and they initially develop just a small portion of it. Kind of hard to screw that up. Of course, even then they end up with (1) a campground that's off the monorail line and which has this convoluted internal traffic system which now involves busses and expensive golf carts, (2) a golf resort which is also off the monorail line and they eventually decide to part with, and (3) an isolated shopping area.

--The first major expansion of the original concept is Epcot. It has internal pedestrian traffic issues (supposedly Disney's core area of expertise from Disneyland) which according to you are mitigated by the Eisner-era addition of the International Gateway.

--There is a monorail running from the TTC to Epcot. Otherwise, what is your case for Epcot being a gleeming example of the gloriously coordinated urban planning of the Disney engineers? Where were the resorts which had wonderfully planned views of Illuminations? How were folks to be transported from these wonderful integrated resorts over to the Magic Kingdom?

So, again, how were the Disney folks "masters" of planning up until 1983?

The fact is, nobody, including Disney, had ever undertaken a comparable project. Yes, they had plans, and yet it turned out their plans had many, many shortcomings. Similarly, the fact that there are issues now which Disney needs to address is not proof that there are no plans in existence.

 

[KNWVIKING]

I've never seen a duplicate post within the same post. Was that intentional ? Anyway.....

***"They even tried to make it a separate cost!"***

When did they try ? It's rumored - or maybe fact, not sure which - that they TALKED about a fee but never did it.

How are the two different ?

In Epcot, all viewing areas were intended to be free for all paying guests. Disney simply chose to take away the prime spots and charge a fee for guests willing to pay.

Wether you want to believe it or not, the deck crowds were starting to interfer with the resort and dinner guest at CG. Disney simply ended something (viewing fireworks from the deck) that they may never have intended it to be used for. When it got to be a problem, they dealt with it. We are currently debating if they did it the right way or not, but the point is that it is very different from the Epcot experience.