Caitlyn Jenner

[Dizlvr]

So if the mind is so powerful and seemingly you are what you think you are - why don't we embrace people who are anorexic? They look at themselves in the mirror and see someone who is overweight. If that is their truth in their mind, why not let them live it?

Its clear you haven't seen a love one struggle with anorexia, its not something a person can "live with". Starving yourself eventually kills you.

 

[mnrose]

So if the mind is so powerful and seemingly you are what you think you are - why don't we embrace people who are anorexic? They look at themselves in the mirror and see someone who is overweight. If that is their truth in their mind, why not let them live it?

Big difference. An anorexic does not eat and dies. They are denying an absolutely essential function of life...eating. And, the less they eat, the more disordered they become. Which is why they will literally starve themselves to death rather than eat. This is why we know that anorexia is an illness. No well, sane person is going to starve themselves to death. Self preservation is a basic human instinct.

I've seen this first hand. It is not pretty. Anorexia is not just a "diet." The brain needs calories to function. Lack of sufficient calories and the brain starts to operate in strange ways, which is why anorexics continue to starve themselves to death. They are incapable of making rational decisions. You can only make thoughtful, rational decisions when your brain is operating with sufficient fuel.

Presumably, Caitlyn Jenner is well nourished and has a brain that functions. She can decide for herself what to do or not with her body. The anorexic, in the full throes of the disease, absolutely cannot make rational decisions. There are numerous brain MRI studies that show exactly that. That is the big difference.

Doctors who specialize in treating trans people are not just operating on whim and caprice. They are well versed in teasing out the difference between trans people and people who are mentally ill and delusional. They will not let these people "become" the opposite sex if they are mentally ill.

 

[erin1715]

source of the stat please

http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120

It's a long article, but here is what I was looking at that says:
A 2011 study at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden produced the most illuminating results yet regarding the transgendered, evidence that should give advocates pause. The long-term study—up to 30 years—followed 324 people who had sex-reassignment surgery. The study revealed that beginning about 10 years after having the surgery, the transgendered began to experience increasing mental difficulties. Most shockingly, their suicide mortality rose almost 20-fold above the comparable nontransgender population. This disturbing result has as yet no explanation but probably reflects the growing sense of isolation reported by the aging transgendered after surgery. The high suicide rate certainly challenges the surgery prescription.

 

[erin1715]

Its clear you haven't seen a love one struggle with anorexia, its not something a person can "live with". Starving yourself eventually kills you.

For the record, I don't agree that you should let a person live with it. I was making a point about mental stability.

 

[Dizlvr]

For the record, I don't agree that you should let a person live with it. I was making a point about mental stability.

Noted. On a personal level it comes down to what you consider mentally unstable, or whether you feel that a person's mental state is a danger to them. I don't consider a transgender person a danger to themselves therefore I think its okay to "let them live with it", as in let them transition. I see an anorexic person's mental state totally different, they are a danger to themselves.

 

[Gracie09]

http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120

It's a long article, but here is what I was looking at that says:
A 2011 study at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden produced the most illuminating results yet regarding the transgendered, evidence that should give advocates pause. The long-term study—up to 30 years—followed 324 people who had ***-reassignment surgery. The study revealed that beginning about 10 years after having the surgery, the transgendered began to experience increasing mental difficulties. Most shockingly, their suicide mortality rose almost 20-fold above the comparable nontransgender population. This disturbing result has as yet no explanation but probably reflects the growing sense of isolation reported by the aging transgendered after surgery. The high suicide rate certainly challenges the surgery prescription.

That paragraph says above the nontransgendered population aka the "normal" population, not transgendered people who did not seek surgery. Actually that Swedish study did not conclude that the surgery should not happen, but that people need follow up care. Also other studies have shown that the study was flawed because the way the questions were asked and the group that made up the initial study group were not all transgendered but a mix of transgendered and cross-dressers (for lack of better term) and other gender-bending. Also the death rates aren't just suicide but other causes like cardiovascular disease.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885
Here's the full study

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/myths-about-transition-regrets_b_6160626.html
here is an article about the flaws in the study

 

[mnrose]

Noted. On a personal level it comes down to what you consider mentally unstable, or whether you feel that a person's mental state is a danger to them. I don't consider a transgender person a danger to themselves therefore I think its okay to "let them live with it", as in let them transition. I see an anorexic person's mental state totally different, they are a danger to themselves.

It's about whether they are in possession of appropriate decisional making faculties. If a person has a fully functioning brain, then they get to decide, even if we don't agree with their choices or don't understand them. It's the reason we don't let children make too many decisions....their brains are not mature enough to make many kinds of decisions. It's the reason we don't let people who have Alzheimers make certain kinds of decision...their brains are faulty and not operating correctly. Anorexia is that kind of illness. And, you can see if with your own eyes. Once you feed an anorexic sufficient calories over a sufficient period of time, you literally see that person returning to normal thinking.

 

[AnAmericanInDisney]

Gender and *** are not synonyms. They have two different meanings.

http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/gender

in short hand - gender is between the ears, *** is between the legs.

Why change the meaning of a word? When I google gender synonym, the only option is "sex." Just use gender identity or gender role, but don't try to change the meaning of the word "gender." Caitlyn/Bruce's gender is male, her gender identity is female.

McMillan dictionary definition:

gender

noun

formal

the fact of being either male or female

 

[DisneyFan32WI]

When Googling the Family Guy episode, I saw that Married with Children from MANY years back did a parody about Bruce Jenner. That's way before Family Guy.

and THIS one from 1981:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbi...an-1981-sketch-comedy-special-resurfaces.html

Also, this was an interesting article:
http://mic.com/articles/120033/jon-...ut-caitlyn-jenner-that-nobody-s-talking-about

 

[Gracie09]

Why change the meaning of a word? When I google gender synonym, the only option is "***." Just use gender identity or gender role, but don't try to change the meaning of the word "gender." Caitlyn/Bruce's gender is male, her gender identity is female.

McMillan dictionary definition:

gender

noun

formal

Why change the meaning of a word? When I google gender synonym, the only option is "***." Just use gender identity or gender role, but don't try to change the meaning of the word "gender." Caitlyn/Bruce's gender is male, her gender identity is female.

McMillan dictionary definition:

gender

noun

formal

the fact of being either male or female

but what does it mean to be male or female. It is not just a physical state of being but a mental one. The definition does not say physically male or female but being male or female. Is a person with Klinefelter's Syndrome male or female (they possess both male and female chromosomes and may have secondary sex of both)? Gender is not as simple as what is between a person's legs.

 

[TaylorEar]

Why change the meaning of a word? When I google gender synonym, the only option is "***." Just use gender identity or gender role, but don't try to change the meaning of the word "gender." Caitlyn/Bruce's gender is male, her gender identity is female.

McMillan dictionary definition:

gender

noun

formal

the fact of being either male or female

Right... key word "being". It does not say "the fact of possessing male or female genitalia and/or DNA."

 

[Ambear]

Also, this was an interesting article:
http://mic.com/articles/120033/jon-...ut-caitlyn-jenner-that-nobody-s-talking-about

I love Jon Stewart.

 

[cabanafrau]

I agree with this 100%. Bruce was a selfish man who hurt his first two families deeply. I just read that he actually told his oldest daughter that he wanted her aborted. He was not Mr. Nice Guy. His first two wives and oldest children have forgiven so much from him. By many accounts, he tried to make up for this with his younger kids. But they are all still trainwrecks. Just google anything about that family.

So to me, Bruce was a "lie" but he was also a big jerk. Caitlyn is the "truth", but I think she will probably still be a jerk. Who you are at your core will still remain after any amount of surgery. Hopefully I'm wrong.

That's absolutely horriffic if true. I do not care if you've made amends, you never pat yourself on the back as a father if you've told your child that.

 

[Saphire]

And this would be his thought on his deathbed...

"If I was lying on my death bed and I had kept this secret and never did anything about it, I would be lying there saying, 'You just blew your entire life."

So totally self-absorbed and in denial of the broken trail he left behind. But perhaps 'Caitlyn' can help, time will tell.

 

[Planogirl]

Right... key word "being". It does not say "the fact of possessing male or female genitalia and/or DNA."

I think that the definition of what being male or female is hard for many to define. I see a lot of definitions but it's difficult to know where the line is. Just because someone says that they are something doesn't always make it so.

Society just has to depend on mental health experts and physicians to sort it all out.

 

[Disneychick75]

I think that the definition of what being male or female is hard for many to define. I see a lot of definitions but it's difficult to know where the line is. Just because someone says that they are something doesn't always make it so.

Society just has to depend on mental health experts and physicians to sort it all out.

Biologically, there is the XX or XY definition assuming Jenner was not born either XXY or XYY. Caitlyn is transitioning on one level but cannot change the XY chromosomes, however, I've read that scientists are looking into this for the future.

The biggest thing that bothers me is not Bruce/Caitlyn's decision to become transgender - that's a big meh to me- but to choose Caitlyn as her name. I don't know why it bothers me- maybe because I don't know a woman over 25 with the name. There were about 12 girls with that name in my daughter's grade at a small private school she attended. She and her friends are 21. Yes, now I guess I'm ageist or nameist or something. BTW, I like the name Caitlyn.

 

[OKW Lover]

Interesting discussions about her name. I wonder how many of us would pick a different name from what our parents gave us at birth. Name fads come and go. When's the last time you heard somebody name they new son Bruce?

 

[sunshinehighway]

Biologically, there is the XX or XY definition assuming Jenner was not born either XXY or XYY. Caitlyn is transitioning on one level but cannot change the XY chromosomes, however, I've read that scientists are looking into this for the future.

The biggest thing that bothers me is not Bruce/Caitlyn's decision to become transgender - that's a big meh to me- but to choose Caitlyn as her name. I don't know why it bothers me- maybe because I don't know a woman over 25 with the name. There were about 12 girls with that name in my daughter's grade at a small private school she attended. She and her friends are 21. Yes, now I guess I'm ageist or nameist or something. BTW, I like the name Caitlyn.

Maybe it's the hard C/K sound. I'm just very skeptical of that family. If the C is to break away from the Kardashians, why not just stay away from that sound?

 

[AustinTink]

I agree that it is weird to pick a name that is associated with the under 25 crowd. It's like he truly wants to erase his entire adult life and start from scratch as a young woman. And the line about "you just blew your entire life" (if he had not done the transition) is very telling. It's as if no one and nothing pre-Caitlyn matters to him. But will they matter to Caitlyn?

 

[stitch'sgirl]

Anybody that pimps their family the way he and Kris do most certainly have mental health issues. I can't agree more about being this self-absorbed. Once you're a parent, sorry, it's not all about "you" anymore. So tired of the way people have worshipped these money hungry selfish whiny brats. I'll save my admiration for someone with some self respect and humility.

And this would be his thought on his deathbed...

"If I was lying on my death bed and I had kept this secret and never did anything about it, I would be lying there saying, 'You just blew your entire life."

So totally self-absorbed and in denial of the broken trail he left behind. But perhaps 'Caitlyn' can help, time will tell.