Buying at Riviera?

[PurdueTodd]

I’ve heard it many times on this board, but where you want to stay at. My wife likes riviera so we bought it. Happy wife, happy love life.

Happy life. Darn phone added love. Funny either way though

 

[Ginamarie]

I own 300 resale AKV points, and I love AKV. We toured Riviera in January and fell in love. Of course, I can't use my resale points to stay at Riviera. We immediately looked into buying Riviera either resale or direct and decided that we wanted the direct points because it would give us blue card status and because the points could be used anywhere, including the big Aulani trip we are planning for 2022. We wound up buying a combined contract with other family members of 450 Riviera direct points. (150 of those are mine).

Disney resort prices are always on the rise. I could have bought AKV while they were selling it direct in 2010 for around $90/point and wound up spending just over $100 on it ten years later with ten years fewer points on the contract. The problem was that I couldn't afford DVC ten years ago like we can now.

Riviera maintenance fees are actually cheaper per point than my AKV fees right now, so I don't put that much into the maintenance fees.. I still want to buy some HHI points and those fees are much higher annually. Fees go up from year to year but right now they're pretty much all in the $8-10 range. At most you're looking at a swing of a couple of hundred dollars in maintenance fees a year to buy Riviera instead of buying SSR, and if you want to stay at Riviera, it feels like a small price to pay. Also, my Riviera contract goes until 2070, so that's a lot more years to enjoy than if you were to buy one of the older resorts.

We jumped on Riviera this month because the prices go up next week.

 

[gisele2]

I took the decision to buy resale because it is cheaper and I was not in a hurry to go to Disney . I bought the first contract with the point chart and the dues in mind . I chose BLT even if I never stayed there. For the second one I decided to go with my favorite resort BCV at a good price also.

 

[Lorana]

I think the thing you are missing is the resale value of your contact as DVC holds value pretty well. Even OKW that was bought 30 years ago for $50pp can be sold now for $90pp and that is after 30 year use. Thus, if you buy Riviera and use it as you plan for at least 7 years, then the resale value is pretty stable. In other words, you can probably recoup most of your initial investment (but use 75% as a safe calculation). It is doubtful that you will keep this contract the full 50 years.

This is outdated math. It is not realistic to expect a direct purchase to increase in value, like the old properties did. It hasn't happened in a decade.

I don't believe this is true. For one, that example was for the 30 years from when OKW went on sale and now. But 10 years ago,

If you look at 10 years ago, BLT was selling for $130/point (until June 2011 when it went to $140, and then August when it went to $150) and AKV for $120/point Direct, and that's not including incentives. You can easily get both (and more, in the case of BLT) selling your contract resale.

CCV went on sale in March 2017 for $176/point, and again that's with no incentives. Depending on the price point someone bought into, chances are they are breaking even if they are selling now, because they probably got it for around $145-$160/point -- not to mention having gotten 3-4 years of use. DVC Doctor's suggestion of 75% seems spot on.

While certainly none of us know what the future will bring, I think history has shown that if you hold your contract for 10-15 years, you will likely break even when you sell if you purchase direct (except perhaps if you are purchasing 2042 expiration resorts, since in 10-15 years they will only have 6-11 years left). And while we certainly don't know what RIV resale will be like in the future, it's current resale value is holding up remarkably well against expectations.

 

[RoseGold]

CCV went on sale in March 2017 for $176/point, and again that's with no incentives. Depending on the price point someone bought into, chances are they are breaking even if they are selling now, because they probably got it for around $145-$160/point -- not to mention having gotten 3-4 years of use. DVC Doctor's suggestion of 75% seems spot on.

For CCV at $176, using the board sponsor average of $148 resale Dec 2020, $800 closing, and 8.5% sales commission, a 200 point contract would lose $3,884, or 11%. Add in financing and many people made a very expensive mistake. With these numbers, it is not even mathematically possible to "break even."

 

[sethschroeder]

This is outdated math. .....
If you bought BLT direct in 2011 at 150, using 200 points, $800 closing, the board sponsor's BLT resale for Dec 2020 of 149, and 8.5% commission rate, you lost $3,533, down almost 12%. And that's with no financing on one of the best properties in the DVC system.

So I am not sure why you are using 2011 inflated numbers compared to the original pricing prior to it selling out (BLT was for all intensive purposes sold out in June 2011).

Also in 2010 you could purchase BLT for $108/point with promos.
Link to promo info from 2010

BLT also launched even without promos at $112 and then was at $120 until right before it sold out where it was $130 for roughly 7 months. Yet somehow you are using a post sell out price of $150?

You would easily be up money at this point 8-10 year later on that contract.

200 Points * $120/point + $800 closing = $24,800
200 Points * $108/point + $800 closing = $22,400

That means with an 8% commission you need to sell just for $133.92/point to break even on standard BLT direct pricing or $120.96/point if you bought with just that one promo I posted.

We could likely even add in financing and make a break even.

 

[sethschroeder]

For CCV at $176, using the board sponsor average of $148 resale Dec 2020, $800 closing, and 8.5% sales commission, a 200 point contract would lose $3,884, or 11%. Add in financing and many people made a very expensive mistake. With these numbers, it is not even mathematically possible to "break even."

We are also talking about a 3 year period so far in that resorts history and it hasn't even fully sold out. We can check in on it in 2028-30 area to get a good temperature check on that resort.

Also the original comment was plan for 75% of value getting back and that is already true.

 

[Sandisw]

So I am not sure why you are using 2011 inflated numbers compared to the original pricing prior to it selling out (BLT was for all intensive purposes sold out in June 2011).

Also in 2010 you could purchase BLT for $108/point with promos.
Link to promo info from 2010

BLT also launched even without promos at $112 and then was at $120 until right before it sold out where it was $130 for roughly 7 months. Yet somehow you are using a post sell out price of $150?

You would easily be up money at this point 8-10 year later on that contract.

200 Points * $120/point + $800 closing = $24,800
200 Points * $108/point + $800 closing = $22,400

That means with an 8% commission you need to sell just for $133.92/point to break even on standard BLT direct pricing or $120.96/point if you bought with just that one promo I posted.

We could likely even add in financing and make a break even.

I bought BLT in 2009 and my net cost was $92 for180 points. If I still owned those contracts..130 and 50..I’d have not only gotten all my purchase price back but covered a good deal of thr MFs paid!

For those that consider resale value as part of the equation..,,we all know I do not...i think the value of the trips taken needs to be considered too.

 

[sethschroeder]

A few things to unpack here:

First of all:

• Do not buy direct if you have even the smallest inclination you will want sell in the next 20 years
• Do not buy Riviera "just because" you need a good reason such as loving the resort or resort location or room layouts
• Do not finance and if you for sure want to go in that direction then look in to getting a Disney Visa, getting 6 months interest fee, and doing a balance transfer to another card with 0% interest

Now on to your post specifically

it’s unclear to me the best way to go about buying Riviera to get the best value.

Are there any deals or recent deals I should know about buying direct?

There is no "better" way simply whatever promo they offer. It simply is the more points you buy the better the price. Most people will say you can always use more points and you will get add-on-itis of wanting to add more points.

Any DVC guide or threads on this forum will outline the current incentive price.

We may relocate to FL in retirement - 12 -15 years

Will you stop staying at DVC then and sell? If so then I would skip a direct contract most likely unless you absolutely love Riviera.

Is it booking up at 11 months for the peak periods (but not Xmas)?

It will book similar to most other resorts. The major benefit is that Riviera is more balanced than other resorts in that it does not have room types that take up a large portion of points that people do not want. You should not count on a standard view and rooms will go quickly but it should be no worse than any other WDW resort.

We want at least some direct points to allow flexibility with other properties - new ones in particular (DLHotel, others) though that isn’t guaranteed I know. And Beach Club, Boardwalk, Copper Creek and Bay lake appeal enough to tryout for stays. Even Key West seems ok when/if family grows.

DLT is a complete unknown at this point for trading in to. With BCV/BWV its not going to be easy unless looking at 1BR or during the summer. With CCV I would not count on getting in there period although obviously it can happen. Finally with BLT its going to be easier (for lake view) and OKW is going to be one of the easiest places to book at WDW (outside maybe their Grand Villas or close to front desk rooms).

It seems that any resale points cannot be used at Riviera unless they are from Riviera correct? So we would have to be happy to only stay at Riviera with any resale RR points, even if new resorts come online. Which is less desirable, so it feels like direct is better for us...

The big thing with direct points is going to be the AP perk (when they sell them again) and getting all future resorts. With resale over time it will become more limited with the limitations ramping drastically in 2042 with expiration of resorts like BWV and BCV.

But pricing out the cost of Riviera, I have a hard time finding it much of a good value or savings Over getting a 30% to 35% room discount.

To stay in a one bedroom every other year for a week buying now:

1BR is going to be the worst value of DVC. Long term though remember you are only paying upkeep of the hotel you are not paying the "profit" Disney demands on their rooms. Room costs will only continue to climb and climb quicker than MFs do.

Room discounts are also not a sure things and resorts can be excluded or have limited number of rooms offered. There is both a flexibility and inflexibility about it since you have to wait and count on discounts and even then if hotel rates went up a bunch you might be paying more.

200pts at $180 = $36000

200 points is not a week in a 1BR every other year. A week in a 1BR Preferred for the majority of the year is going to be 279-363 points.

Around spring break, thanksgiving, easter, and christmas it will be more though.

That would mean for 400 points that you can use you are actually getting upwards of 8 nights in the Summer/Fall or 10 nights in September/January/Early December. This would drastically throw the math off maybe?

What am I missing that makes this a good deal at all? A wrong assumption I can get a 30% discount at RR into the future? Even with 20% the DVC isn’t a great bargain. An assumption that the rack rate is going to keep increasing therefore the deal is that much better? How much more expensive can these rooms get? Will they be double their current cost? Unlikely. Will they go up? Yes, but enough to make this a good value?!?! I find it hard to believe.

I think you need to go back look at how many points are actually needed and what rack rate is actually during your expected travel dates. In addition do not forget to account for the annual increase of hotel rooms which I would absolutely expect to outpace MFs as Disney wants more not less profit.

One further thing will you always stay in a 1BR (they are the worst value) or will you lean towards 2BR and Studios at times?

 

[Jelly563]

Can any of you math gurus please tell me if I have broken even yet ?..... I bought 80 pts resale @ VGF in 2015 at $138 and 150 pts @ BWV in 2016 for $89. Both were paid in full at the time of purchase. Not interested in selling just yet but their reallocation of points is sure doing a number on my positivity..... TYIA

 

[sethschroeder]

Can any of you math gurus please tell me if I have broken even yet ?..... I bought 80 pts resale @ VGF in 2015 at $138 and 150 pts @ BWV in 2016 for $89. Both were paid in full at the time of purchase. Not interested in selling just yet but their reallocation of points is sure doing a number on my positivity..... TYIA

Depends on what you mean by breakeven?

Both are higher priced right now so you could sell for a profit. That being said if you wanted to get in to the weeds you could look at things like time of inflation, lost investment potential, comparison against cash rates.

As far as reallocation it just depends on when you travel how the point requirements have changed. There is potentially a small inflation on total points that people are investigating but its fairly uneventful for individuals its being looked not because of impact on a single person but on the membership as a whole.

 

[Lorana]

For CCV at $176, using the board sponsor average of $148 resale Dec 2020, $800 closing, and 8.5% sales commission, a 200 point contract would lose $3,884, or 11%. Add in financing and many people made a very expensive mistake. With these numbers, it is not even mathematically possible to "break even."

You wouldn’t have paid $176/point for 200 points. You’d have paid $158.50/point due to new member incentives. Also closing is paid by the buyer normally; sellers pay the $20 ROFR fee and $150 estoppel fee, but otherwise only pay commission. Thus you’d have earned $814 from the sale (presuming $148 selling price and 8% commission, $20 ROFR filing fee and $150 estoppel), recouped all your cost, and gotten 3-4 years of use.

 

[DVC Doctor]

CCV went on sale in March 2017 for $176/point, and again that's with no incentives. Depending on the price point someone bought into, chances are they are breaking even if they are selling now, because they probably got it for around $145-$160/point -- not to mention having gotten 3-4 years of use.

DVC Doctor's suggestion of 75% seems spot on.

While certainly none of us know what the future will bring, I think history has shown that if you hold your contract for 10-15 years, you will likely break even when you sell if you purchase direct (except perhaps if you are purchasing 2042 expiration resorts, since in 10-15 years they will only have 6-11 years left). And while we certainly don't know what RIV resale will be like in the future, it's current resale value is holding up remarkably well against expectations.

This thread is getting pretty complex with lots of math and opinions throw around, so let me clarify my opinion as a 20 YEAR DVC Member that has seen lots of ups and downs.

My first rule #1 is to pay cash for a new or resale contract and do not finance with 10%+ interest. If you want to use a HELOC or some other low interest rate (under 5%) then that is acceptable. However, if you are financing at above 5% then I would advise NOT TO BUY and just rent points or pay Disney cash rates. I do understand that that may mean a large outlay of cash and not everyone has $30,000 laying around, but that is still my #1 rule as the money wasted on financing far outweigh any potential savings you may be planning.

The DISboard common rule #1 is to buy where you want to stay has not proven true for me as I constantly jump resorts and NEVER use the 11 month booking window. If you need the 11 month booking window for certain high demand rates, then you do need to buy where you want to stay as tied with my rule of paying cash.

I only used the past as an example of how DVC has been a great buy from 1990-2000 (OKW, BWV, BCV), very good buy from 2000-2010 (SSR, AKV, BLT), and an acceptable buy from 2010 to 2018 (VGF, Poly) or so. I use the concept of how much it cost to join then and what it is worth if you sell today. For anyone that bought over 15 years ago, they are in a great position where their cost pretty much drops to $0 as the resale price is the same or higher than what they paid, so their entire use only cost annual dues (and any finance charges).

To be perfectly honest, the current Riviera prices are shocking and scary to me and I am not certain that this is an affordable option for most people. I have stayed at the resort and it is beautiful, but I greatly prefer VGF or BLT over Riviera. For the points and cost per point, I would also rather take BWV or BCV over RIV as it is so expensive to stay there. Also, the Skyline has been a bust for me as in the morning or park close it is too crowded to be enjoyable, but during the day it is nice.

So, what do I recommend to the original poster - if you can afford spending $36,000 without high interest rates - then BUY it direct from Disney as it gives you exactly what you want. Then spend the next few years enjoying it and if you grow tired of it, sell it for close to breakeven or a slight loss. As I stated before, it generally takes 10 years or so to buy direct from Disney and then sell for a break-even cost (ie. sell for the same price as you bought).

Disney timeshare is not an investment like stocks or bonds or private property, but spending $36,000 requires a full analysis of the pros and cons of what impact to your financial life that will have. If you can't easily afford to miss $36,000 then DO NOT BUY and simply book rooms via AAA discount or rent points from a member.

Good luck and let us know what you decide.

 

[sethschroeder]

For the points and cost per point, I would also rather take BWV or BCV over RIV as it is so expensive to stay there.

I just want to point out though in 20 more years your BWV or BCV will absolutely be worthless as it will have 1 year left and you might not even find a buyer based on availability for the last year.

Flip side resale restrictions will have just overtaken whatever Epcot Resorts exist.

Skyline has been a bust for me as in the morning or park close

Had you stayed there pre-covid? I ask based on capacity for the Skyliner.

I would say it's really only impactful for HS open and Epcot close. Epcot opening you simply can go to HS and then take the Boat if it was really that bad. With HS close you can take the boat and Skyliner from Epcot.

I will just give the example how we waited for roughly 45-1hr mins at AKV for a bus that never came for a MK opening. At least with the Skyliner I have control on being one of the first in line when it starts running.

Absolutely a downside vs walking though. After our last trip though and visiting every resort Riveria is number 1 and Boardwalk is number 2 for where we would want to stay at WDW. BLT I don't think I will ever stay at completely not a fan and from the sounds of it from DVC guides it's a fairly common sentiment that you love it or hate it.

 

[TCRAIG]

I just can’t get over the points chart of RIV VS BC/BWV/BLT - we always stay 1Br - I can do BC for 2/3 the points of RIV...RIV 338, BC 227 for a week in May 2022. I used RIV Premium because I understand there aren't many STD rooms.

 

[Sandisw]

I just can’t get over the points chart of RIV VS BC/BWV/BLT - we always stay 1Br - I can do BC for 2/3 the points of RIV...RIV 338, BC 227 for a week in May 2020. I used RIV Premium because I understand there aren't many STD rooms.

On the flip side, if you own RIV, and can use the 11 month advantage you can get a SV 1 bedroom for 260 in 2021, which includes real sleeping for 5 vs, BCV for 232 which only includes sleeping surfaces for 4.

It is still more, but not crazy more for a weeks stay, especially given anyone buying today is getting 49 years with RIV and only 20 years with BCV. It then comes down to whether that additional upfront cost is worth it,

This all assumes you want to stay at RIV to the same degree you want to stay at BCV. Anyone who could care less, it is not going to be the right move...but, anyone who likes the resort and wants to stay there, owning gets you the best chance to limit how many extra points it will cost you because your chances of SV is much higher, and for those that want 1 bedrooms, Id say your chances are pretty good 95% of the year!

 

[DVC Doctor]

I just want to point out though in 20 more years your BWV or BCV will absolutely be worthless as it will have 1 year left and you might not even find a buyer based on availability for the last year.

After our last trip though and visiting every resort Riveria is number 1 and Boardwalk is number 2 for where we would want to stay at WDW. BLT I don't think I will ever stay at completely not a fan and from the sounds of it from DVC guides it's a fairly common sentiment that you love it or hate it.

I do NOT own BWV or BCV, I was simply stating I would rather spend less points to stay at those two resorts over RIV for the same room size.

Also, I do own BLT and love it there, but I understand how some people may think it lacks some charm.

If your #1 choice is Riviera, and I do love the look and smell of that resort, then buy there. I never use the 11 month booking window and almost never stay in studios, and honestly, I like all the DVC resorts so I don't get too hung up on having to stay at only one resort.

I just can’t get over the points chart of RIV VS BC/BWV/BLT - we always stay 1Br - I can do BC for 2/3 the points of RIV...RIV 338, BC 227 for a week in May 2020. I used RIV Premium because I understand there aren't many STD rooms.

Agreed. For any non-RIV owner, we are looking at 7 month booking and that means the preferred view is generally whats left and those are even more expensive (and not worth the extra money in my opinion). That is why I said that I prefer other resorts with less point cost per room over Riviera, even though it is a nice resort.

 

[TCRAIG]

On the flip side, if you own RIV, and can use the 11 month advantage you can get a SV 1 bedroom for 260 in 2021, which includes real sleeping for 5 vs, BCV for 232 which only includes sleeping surfaces for 4.

It is still more, but not crazy more for a weeks stay, especially given anyone buying today is getting 49 years with RIV and only 20 years with BCV. It then comes down to whether that additional upfront cost is worth it,

This all assumes you want to stay at RIV to the same degree you want to stay at BCV. Anyone who could care less, it is not going to be the right move...but, anyone who likes the resort and wants to stay there, owning gets you the best chance to limit how many extra points it will cost you because your chances of SV is much higher, and for those that want 1 bedrooms, Id say your chances are pretty good 95% of the year!

True - but there’s just 2 of us so 5 doesn’t matter to me. Have they said how many STD 1Br there will be once fully open?

 

[Sandisw]

True - but there’s just 2 of us so 5 doesn’t matter to me. Have they said how many STD 1Br there will be once fully open?

No, but I believe the initial decisions were around 20% for SV. However, in my recent discussion with DVC for other matters, one thing they mentioned is that view categories are decided before buildings are even built and once they are, they sometimes find that adjustments need to be made.

But, to give you an idea....I just booked a 1 bedroom SV at RIV for next October today, 9 months out. As an owner there, I bought not only because I love the place, but also so I can use points for SV and believe owning is the best way.

Again, BCV is going to be less points and I agree that as a non owner one has to compare to PV which makes you say OUCH. But, if one prefers RIV, and is doing 1 bedrooms, I think the chances to get those in SV will be very similar to chances for 1 bedrooms at BCV.

 

[sethschroeder]

I just can’t get over the points chart of RIV VS BC/BWV/BLT - we always stay 1Br - I can do BC for 2/3 the points of RIV...RIV 338, BC 227 for a week in May 2022. I used RIV Premium because I understand there aren't many STD rooms.

1BR is going to be the worst deal at RIV by far (higher upcharge than other resorts over the studio). Also while there are not a ton of STD rooms they are of a higher percentage than BLT/BWV. RIV 37%, BLT 16%, BWV 21%

Then you also do need to account for the room itself which RIV across the board is going to have some of the largest rooms in every category at WDW and substantially larger than BCV/BWV.

Room Size:
RIV 813 Sq/ft, BLT 803, BCV 719, BWV 712

As for point charts BCV/BWV are less points but come with a higher cost per point by year. In 10 years the BCV/BWV contracts will start to lose value and in 20 years they will be worthless. With BLT you will see cost savings.

As far as point charts: (7 night stay in October as baseline)
RIV Pref - 363, BLT Theme - 331, RIV Std - 283, BLT Lake - 275, BWV Pref - 255, BCV - 253, BLT Std - 240, BWV Std - 194

Some will look at the point upcharge and go elsewhere while others will see the point upcharge based on it being larger rooms and a nicer resort/rooms (obviously opinion).

I do NOT own BWV or BCV, I was simply stating I would rather spend less points to stay at those two resorts over RIV for the same room size.

I do own BWV (and RIV) and sold some of my points (I think Sandisw sold all their points) at BWV. I was simply trying to point out that in 20 years you can sell your RIV contract and really get back a good amount of money.

On the flip side for us we switched over to RIV partly because honestly the math is not that far off when we could buy for $155/point and considering we would get over 2x the amount of time (we plan on keeping the contract for all 50 years). In 2042 when I see the price of a new BWV contract I suspect I will be very content paying some extra upfront now.