Buying a puppy online???

[tammymacb]

For the record. As the owner of several mutts...including this one who I got from the trunk of a car in rural SC at a gas station...

I have never warned against breeds of "unknown origin". I'd own any mix I found and fell for. And it's raise it with love and have a good dog.

 

[robinb]

OMG. Really. I know exactly where they come from. From irresponsible people. Lets make some more excuses for them, shall we?

But where do the irresponsible people get the dogs? A reputable breeder will take a dog back. A puppy mill and many backyard breeders do not and those animals end up in shelters and rescues. Also, many rescue organizations get their dogs directly from the puppy mills via dog auctions.

BTW, "designer dogs" are nothing more than mutts. Mixed breeds. Lets call them what they are. And, I'd have far less problem owning a mutt then pretending I had a *designer dog"

You may think that, but the puppy mills know that a "mutt" doesn't sell while a "Teddy Bear" or "Doodle" or "Cockapoo" or "Puggle" will sell. That's why there are so many of the "designer dogs" (and you see, I put it in quotes ) in shelters.

ETA: Your dog is really cute!

ETA2: Since we're posting pictures, this is Darci:

 

[RachaelA]

But do you not see the issue here? You're saying we should care about those issues, should care very much about them, but then should ignore them. Don't buy from backyard breeders! Their dogs are unhealthy! Unless you find one in a shelter, then they're fine! Don't buy a dog of unknown or nonstandard parentage because there's no telling what horrible things are hidden in its DNA! Unless you find it in a shelter, then it's fine!

I think the point is not that the dog is inferior because its not from a reputable breeder, but more so why would you pay thousands of dollars for a regular run of the mill potentially poorly bred dog from a backyard breeder or puppy mill when you can spend anywhere from $50-$200 to get the exact same dog from a shelter or rescue AND save its life AND help stop the puppy mills and bad breeders.

 

[tammymacb]

But where do the irresponsible people get the dogs? A reputable breeder will take a dog back. A puppy mill and many backyard breeders do not and those animals end up in shelters and rescues. Also, many rescue organizations get their dogs directly from the puppy mills via dog auctions.

You may think that, but the puppy mills know that a "mutt" doesn't sell while a "Teddy Bear" or "Doodle" or "Cockapoo" or "Puggle" will sell. That's why there are so many of the "designer dogs" (and you see, I put it in quotes ) in shelters.

I don't know how you don't get this. I don't have a problem with someone who wants a particular breed buying from a reputable breeder if that's what they want.

Mutts are mutts whatever you would like to call them. And people are different. You may thing a puggle is cute. I think it's a way to get foolish people to part with their money.

 

[labdogs42]

I think the issue is that for you, quality means "the dog looks the way this breed is supposed to look." But not everyone cares about that. As long as it's not a health issue, I don't care if my dog is shorter than the breed standard, or has an off-color coat.

For example, the breed standard for my dog says the nose should be "entirely black except in light-coloured hounds when it may be brown or liver." So, would my dog, who is not light-colored, be undesirable as a pet simply if she had a brown nose instead of a black one? Her appropriate tail is described as "when moving, stern carried well up and curving gently, sabre-fashion, never curling or gay." I don't know what a gay tail is , but if her tail curled in a non-sabre-fashion, would that mean she was undesirable as a pet?

No, it doesn't mean they don't make a good pet. Show breeders produce pet dogs, too. Every puppy born to a Champion isn't necessarily going to be a breed Champion. They may embody the best qualities of the breed from a health and temperament standpoint, but be lacking in some physical characteristic (like my Lab being a little too tall and carrying his tail over his back). Because these responsible breeders are producing both show and pet quality dogs, there is no reason for people to breed for the sole purpose of producing pet quality dogs only. I think that's what people here are trying to say. Sometimes I find it hard to differentiate between "backyard breeders" and "hobby breeders". I don't think all people who breed dogs and don't show them fall into the same category necessarily.

Of course, depending on what kind of dog you're talking about, you might also look into working lines of the same breed. I'd probably look for obedience and agility titles in my next dog's lineage before I looked for breed championships. It all depends on what you want in the dog.

ETA, Oh yeah, a gay tail is a tail that is carried high over the back, think of a Siberian Husky tail.

 

[luvmy3]

Just curious how pet stores work, do they pay puppy mills for the puppies first, or do they only pay IF they are sold to a customer?

 

[tammymacb]

Beautiful poodle. I had a friend who had one and it was very smart. As a long time owner of retired racing greyhounds, obviously brains are not at the top of my priority list in dogs.

 

[tammymacb]

Just curious how first, pet stores work, do they pay puppy mills for the puppies first, or do they only pay IF they are sold to a customer?

They pay the millers first. I know this because I came this close to opening a pet store ( no animals just food, toys, beds, etc ) and I got tons of ad mail from millers. I can tell you that the price list I got showed puppy's wholesale at 20% of what the pet stores actually charge you. It's quite the racket.

 

[flash654]

So, adopting a shelter dog is pretty much THE SAME as getting a dog from a puppy mill, it's just one step removed, since most of these shelter dogs were bred by puppy mills. I don't get how that doesn't actually end up supporting the puppy mills.

I volunteer at my city's pound two or three times a month. I've seen hundreds of dogs come through in the time I've been there - and I'm sorry but this statement is just not true.

There are three primary sources for dogs who come into the shelter:

1) The owner has chosen to give up the dog, known as "Owner Giveup". In this case, we don't know where the dog came from - but from what the owners tell us, it's usually that they got the dog from a friend or family member, they found it on the street and started taking care of it, or they previously adopted it and can no longer care for it. This group represents maybe half the dogs that come through our shelter.

2) The dog was found on the street, known as "Stray" dogs. When someone calls animal control on a loose dog, a staff member is dispatched to pick up the dog. If the dog is registered with a rabies tag, or has a microchip, we contact the owner of the dog using their last known contact information. If we can find the owner, they come get their dog. If not, we hold the dog for two weeks before evaluating it for adoption by a new owner. This represents maybe 40% of the dogs that I see.

3) Court case and abuse dogs. These are dogs that have been removed from their owners due to animal abuse, or for some other reason. These dogs can stay at the shelter as "unadoptable" for a very long time, because they still belong to their owners until the court cases involving them are settled. Eventually they are either evaluated for adoption or returned to their owners. This represents the last 10% or so that go through.


Please please please try to adopt an animal from your local shelter if you can. The dogs there are in so much need. It's no fault of their own that they're confined to tiny cages, that they get to go outside only once a day for 15 minutes...

Let me share the reality of the situation with everyone. At a place like the city pound, by law we cannot turn animals away. We must accept every animal that is brought to us, and we must pick up every stray call we get. Further, as you can imagine, animal care is not always highest on the list of priorities for a city government. Resources are stretched very thin - and the fact of the matter is that some of these animals are put down if no one adopts them. It's a terrible, sad fact - but there's nothing we can do about it. There are more animals than people who want them. They need to be adopted, or they will die.

Please, consider at least looking at a local shelter before you buy a dog. My family got our dog from the shelter I volunteer at, and she's the sweetest most loving animal you could ever imagine.

 

[robinb]

I don't know how you don't get this. I don't have a problem with someone who wants a particular breed buying from a reputable breeder if that's what they want.

Mutts are mutts whatever you would like to call them. And people are different. You may thing a puggle is cute. I think it's a way to get foolish people to part with their money.

I was responding to your post where you said that jodifla was wrong that many dogs in shelters and rescues are actually from Puppy Mills. I was supporting her opinion. The Designer Dogs, and people's desire for those mixed breeds, are part of the problem.

 

[tlbwriter]

I think the point is not that the dog is inferior because its not from a reputable breeder, but more so why would you pay thousands of dollars for a regular run of the mill potentially poorly bred dog from a backyard breeder or puppy mill when you can spend anywhere from $50-$200 to get the exact same dog from a shelter or rescue AND save its life AND help stop the puppy mills and bad breeders.

And I agree with this point, but that's not what I'm hearing from some other posters, as well as non-DIS posts. Many people are saying that one reason to not buy from puppy mills and bad breeders is because you will get an inferior dog. (Obviously, not supporting those businesses due to cruelty and overpopulation is still a compelling reason not to buy those dogs.) When those same people advocate getting a dog from a shelter instead, knowing that it's very likely to be one of those "inferior dogs," it just doesn't add up.

 

[tammymacb]

I was responding to your post where you said that jodifla was wrong that many dogs in shelters and rescues are actually from Puppy Mills. I was supporting her opinion. The Designer Dogs, and people's desire for those mixed breeds, are part of the problem.

But her opinion is that adopting from a shelter is supporting a miller when it's the exact opposite. If you adopt then the money you would have spent to the miller goes to something else. The less profit they make, the more reason to find another business...EVERY adopted dog puts a nail in the puppy millers coffin. I want lots of nails.

And since we're showing pictures. Here's Saylor. Absolutely a pure bred Boykin Spaniel ( SC state dog ) my DH had wanted one for a while and I could not let myself buy a puppy. Went to the SPCA to make a donation and there she was.... in all her swimming glory.

 

[robinb]

And I agree with this point, but that's not what I'm hearing from some other posters, as well as non-DIS posts. Many people are saying that one reason to not buy from puppy mills and bad breeders is because you will get an inferior dog. (Obviously, not supporting those businesses due to cruelty and overpopulation is still a compelling reason not to buy those dogs.) When those same people advocate getting a dog from a shelter instead, knowing that it's very likely to be one of those "inferior dogs," it just doesn't add up.

And I agree with both of you. If you're willing to "roll the dice" why spend more? Save a furry little life and feel good about it .

 

[janey99]

I would not consider this a purely visual flaw as it has to do with the bone structure of the dog. I would think any reasoable person would know the difference? If you research the breed you find out what specific things to look for as markers for potential health problems. You don't have to be a fancy breeder to do that. It just takes some reading. For instace, one of the major "things to look for" in doxies is mixing of coat patterns. A double dapple or dapple mixed with piebald can result in a pigmentation based alopecia because of a defective gene carried with the dapple gene. It can also result in hearing and vision issues. You should never buy a mixed pattern dog without evidence of careful genetic screening. I knoe this becuase I took the time to read, not becuase I show dogs or spend thousands on them. It really isn't that hard to do the legwork.

I think we will have to agree to disagree. While I do think the average person is capable of using The Google to pepper their correspondence with buzz words in connection with any particular topic, I don't think they are capable of understanding of what the totality of those phrases may mean in the context of a breed's entire development and history, particularly when the internet as a source for accurate information is questionable at best.

Jane

 

[tlbwriter]

Because these responsible breeders are producing both show and pet quality dogs, there is no reason for people to breed for the sole purpose of producing pet quality dogs only.

Well, there's one reason. Price. Breeding show quality dogs is expensive, and dogs are priced accordingly. I mentioned earlier that I contacted a "reputable breeder" about a certain breed of dog, and she had two possible dogs - an adult for $600, and an older puppy for $1000. If a family wants a specific breed of dog due to its known qualities (and remember, we're supposed to buy from good breeders, because that's how you maintain those known breed qualities), this is going to price a lot of families out of the market. That's why people end up buying from backyard breeders and puppy mills. Should they try to find a breed rescue instead? Sure. But if you want a specific breed, you may not have much luck there (there isn't a rescue in my entire state for my breed of dog, and it's not a rare breed). And if you have a young child, you may be ineligible to adopt. Should they adopt from a shelter instead? Absolutely. Unless they're really set on that specific breed, or they're declared ineligible to adopt because they have a child.

Ideally, there would be one more tier below show breeders. Good breeders who breed for health and temperament but not necessarily for show quality. People who still breed responsibly, following up on their dogs to watch for unseen health issues, screening potential owners, etc. Target dogs instead of Tiffany dogs.

ETA, Oh yeah, a gay tail is a tail that is carried high over the back, think of a Siberian Husky tail.

Thanks.

 

[robinb]

But her opinion is that adopting from a shelter is supporting a miller when it's the exact opposite. If you adopt then the money you would have spent to the miller goes to something else. The less profit they make, the more reason to find another business...EVERY adopted dog puts a nail in the puppy millers coffin. I want lots of nails.

She said:

So, adopting a shelter dog is pretty much THE SAME as getting a dog from a puppy mill, it's just one step removed, since most of these shelter dogs were bred by puppy mills. I don't get how that doesn't actually end up supporting the puppy mills.

And I agree with her. Many dogs are just one step removed from the puppy mills in shelters. I think that breed rescues are even closer since they actually BUY dogs from the mills themselves. How is purchasing an older dog or a litter at an auction NOT supporting puppy mills?

 

[DisneyAprilFool]

I think the issue is that for you, quality means "the dog looks the way this breed is supposed to look." But not everyone cares about that. As long as it's not a health issue, I don't care if my dog is shorter than the breed standard, or has an off-color coat.

For example, the breed standard for my dog says the nose should be "entirely black except in light-coloured hounds when it may be brown or liver." So, would my dog, who is not light-colored, be undesirable as a pet simply if she had a brown nose instead of a black one? Her appropriate tail is described as "when moving, stern carried well up and curving gently, sabre-fashion, never curling or gay." I don't know what a gay tail is , but if her tail curled in a non-sabre-fashion, would that mean she was undesirable as a pet?

No, you're not understanding me at all. The fact is- breeders breed to the breed standard and will still produce puppies that are pet quality- wrong color, wrong tail carriage, etc. You DO want your breed to look, generally speaking, like your breed. Walk through some pet stores- well, get to REALLY know a few breeds of dogs first- and then walk through pet stores. You will note how grossly misbred and how grossly misrepresented many breeds of dogs are. You say you want a Chihuahua, but it doesn't have to look like the breed standard, right? So you are okay with a 45 pound Chi? Most people wouldn't be!

So good breeders still produce those pet quality puppies- they are lucky and happy if ONE puppy in the litter is show quality and the rest go on to great homes as spayed/neutered pets. (This is the good breeders- the crappy ones will say all of their dogs are show quality and should be bred- run from them!)

 

[tammymacb]

She said:



And I agree with her. Many dogs are just one step removed from the puppy mills in shelters. I think that breed rescues are even closer since they actually BUY dogs from the mills themselves. How is purchasing an older dog or a litter at an auction NOT supporting puppy mills?

I know there are groups that take dogs out of mills by buying them in auctions. I guess they look at it like saving the dog from euthanasia or if it's young and still breedable, then it's saving the dog from more life in hell. I don't know how I feel about it actually. Of course, I'd hope EACH dog be rescued from millers and have a shot at a decent life. But, buying the dog is putting money directly in the miller's pocket. I know there are also groups that leave their names with various millers. Basically they give them a card and say, "Any dog you need to get rid of, call us instead, we'll come out and pick it up." I'd personally prefer to deal with the group that isn't financially rewarding the miller.

In all honesty what we need in this country of ridiculous and worthless laws, is a crackdown on puppy mills that's effective. So far this hasn't happened.

And as far as adopting a dog profiting puppy millers...it's just not true. By adopting, the second person has bypassed the miller. The mill would profit if the first person surrendered their dog to the shelter and the second person just went out and bought a puppy while never checking and seeing the dog that was already available for adoption. Every adoption, even if it was originally from a mill, takes money out of a commercial dog breeder's pocket.

 

[ktlm]

Again, I'm all for shelter dogs and I've had mutts and they have been great dogs. I'm all for encouraging people to adopt dogs from shelters; however, that is not for everyone. Some people need certain characteristics in their breed, and if you have small children in the house or plan to soon, you have to be very careful about the animals you are making a part of your family. If you are looking for a certain breed because you want specific characteristics (i.e. non-shedding; temperment; "hypoallergenic" etc.), you have to be careful about getting a pure-bred rescue dog. (Again, just because you get the dog from a reputable breeder (and in my opinion they don't have to have champions to qualify), does not mean they will have those characteristics; however, your chances of getting a dog that does have such characteristics is much higher.)

Here was my research experiece. Not to sound like a broken record from my previous posts, but we absolutely adore our Havanese. After DD was born and was out of the infant stage, we thought about adding second dog, but knew if we did we wanted another Havanese, so I checked into several Havanese Rescues and have continued to check them here and there over the last couple of years just to see what dogs are available.

There are somedogs that have come from familes that just didn't want them, or couldn't keep them for whatever reason (I found a sweet story about an already adopted rescue that was rejected because its former owner didn't like that it wanted to be on her lap all the time and was constantly right next to her-- uh- lady that is what the Havanese does by breed nature ). However, the vast majority of the rescue dogs I found were puppy mill dogs-- the rescue organizations I checked with disclose that to you and advise you of where they obtained each dog they have available for adoption. Apparently some puppy mills use the rescues for a dumping ground when the dogs don't meet the breed standards they want and either aren't sold as puppies or as adults are not breeding sucessfully. The rescue facilities obviously are going to take them in, because of the risk that if they don't the millers will kill them. (Others are rescued when the mills are exposed and shut down).

What I discovered was that because of these being mill "rejects", many of them were what they refer to as "Shavanese"-- a term I think the millers came up with to try to sell puppies with a major breeding issue. "Shavanese" are Havanese that through very poor breeding (and probably even mixed blood somewhere), wind up with short hair and not only that, they shed, and therefore are not "hypoallergenic". This totally defeats the purpose if you are wanting a Havanese because the breed does not shed and is great for people with allergies. We have allergies in our house, so that doesn't work for us. They are probably great dogs, and will make perfect sweet pets for someone, but the fact is that if you need a Havanese because of the allergy problems you have, and will have with other dogs, this would probably not be the right choice of dog for you.

Also, we found that most (not all) of the rescue facilities would not adopt to people with children under the age of 6, EVEN though the Havanese breed is generally known to be great with kids. The answers we got were that because of the lack of socialization of these puppy mill dogs and the potential variations from breed characteristics due to poor or unknown breeding, the facilities could not be sure that the dogs would be safe with smaller kids, or the kids safe for the dogs. There were exceptions. We found that where the rescue came from a known family that just couldn't keep it due to deployment, moving, family illness, death, etc. that the rescue organization might allow such a dog to be placed with kids, particularly if the dog had come from a family with small kids.

Our breeder has started taking in and offering a few rescue dogs, so if we do add to the family, we may consider even doing that through her because we know that with her familiarity with the breed, she will not steer us wrong in terms of whether the rescue is a good fit with us. I suspect (although I have never talked to her) that some of her rescues may have been dogs she initially bred because it is in our purchase contract that if we EVER decided to get rid of our dog outside of our family members (no chance of that!!!!), that we would have to first give her the right to re-claim the dog.

 

[princessmom29]

I think we will have to agree to disagree. While I do think the average person is capable of using The Google to pepper their correspondence with buzz words in connection with any particular topic, I don't think they are capable of understanding of what the totality of those phrases may mean in the context of a breed's entire development and history, particularly when the internet as a source for accurate information is questionable at best.

Jane

I guess I just have more faith in the intelligence of the average person. I just don't think they are that stupid, and FWIW, I don't apperciate the jab. I am not randomly looking up buzz words as you seem to be implying. I actually read real books. As for the internet, I would think any reasonable adult would know that you must consider the source of any information, wether fro ma book or the internet. I am actually capable of understanding what I am reading, as anyone with a 6th grade education should be. Sorry, but this is not astrophyisics or neuroscience. I think the avergae person is perfectly capable of figuring it out.