Buying a puppy online???

I think the poster that posted this info is trying to make the point that "reputable breeders" DO only breed to create breed standard quality dogs to improve the breed - making puppies is not an industry to them in order to create nice puppies for families to buy. (and I do agree with her points) Reputable breeders scour the world (literally) in order to find foundation stock for their kennels that reflects as close to perfect physical conformation and health that they can achieve. They then extensively health test those dogs again (even though the parents may have been tested) to confirm the health and lack of congenital problems in their dogs to the largest extent possible. They then get into the show circuit to achieve championships for their dogs, which are external confirmations from that breed's community that the dogs are superior examples of thier breed. They may also do agility, obedience or other activities to similarly prove their dogs' temperament, physicality or intelligence. They then scour the earth again to find suitable mates for their breeding stock, whose characteristics will either help cement good qualities into their dogs' offspring or work to overcome undesirable characteristics if there are any. THEN because breeding is not an exact science, some puppies will perfectly embody all the things the breeder was trying to achieve, and will be show prospects that attract the attention of other breeders OR there will be puppies who are most likely extremely healthy physical specimens, because of all the vetting that went into their breeding, but may have visual faults that make them undesirable for further breeding - THOSE are the puppies that breeders will consider placing in a pet home. This kind of back story does not "confirm" a perfectly healthy puppy, but it sure helps.

It IS hard to find these people - they are not puppy sellers. They invest a great deal of time and money into something that is their passion. One or two litters a year is all they have time for because it takes a great deal of commitment to do all the other things that their pursuit requires.

I don't know where you get the idea that these people are "inbreeding?" What they are doing is very extensively and carefully cross breeding. You state "unless you are going out of your way to bring in dogs from other areas" like that is the exception, but it is the rule for "reputable breeders."

One of my dogs, who is a pet quality boxer (plain fawn rather than flashy, and has a mismark swirl of fur on her shoulder) from a "reputable breeder" has a mother who has been imported from England and is now an American champion. Mom's parentage is English and Irish champions. Her father is a Canadian champion who also competes in agility and obedience trials. His parentage includes a dad who was the top boxer in Canada for a number of years. These dogs were selected to be bred after much research and discussion among their owners. It involved shipping frozen <ahem> from Canada to the US so an artificial insemination could be performed. Other dogs in her kennel are imported from Ireland and Canada. These breeders are not breeding the same pair of father/daughter dogs over and over again, nor are they breeding their "nice female lab" with "nice neighbor male lab" from down the street, because wouldn't they make cute puppies.

As I mentioned, breeding is not an exact science, and any number of mishaps can occur, but if I am going to invest a great deal of money and acquire a family member who will integrate into our family and remain there for over a decade, I'll stack the odds in my favor every time by working to find a "reputable breeder" - I don't think the concept is propaganda!

Jane
An external cosmetic fault does not mean that a dog carries a genetic health problem or that it will be any more unhealthy that a dog with perfect appearance. Give me the faulted dog any day over the perfect "breed standard" appearence. Breed standards are constantly being refined, in most cases excluding more and more dogs. As the number of "perfect" dogs narrows so do your options for genetic diversity if you are looking ot noly breed perfect. I don't see the problem in breeding a dog with an appearance fault that has no bearing on its health. I don't care that my dog is not "breed standard" color, as long as she is healthy and happy. I don't think you have to breed a champion according to AKC standards to breed healthy happy dogs.
 
Not that it matters since so many of you seem to have made up your mind (about the OP in regard to puppies online)... But the whole 'no reputable breeder would sell a puppy online' nonsense is simply that- nonsense.

There are many breeds that cannot be found locally in certain areas of the United States. There are many breeds that can be found locally, but are bred by backyard breeders. In 2011, to slap any breeder who has an animal listed online as a backyard breeder is presumptuous as BEST.

Example: I don't breed dogs, but I breed and show a pretty rare breed of cat. I attend about 6-8 cat shows a year, at about $800-$1000 a pop (entry fees- $200-300, gas- $200-300, hotels- $200, miscellaneous 'oooh, I have to get this new kitty thing'- priceless). My tax man shakes his head when he does my taxes- I pay more in vet bills then most people spend on their car payments a year- at least.

I advertise online. If you email me- expect to have a lot of questions asked back at you. Expect to send me references. Expect for me to talk to your vet. Do not expect a young kitten- the kitten will be spayed/neutered prior to placement and will have received its vaccines. Do not expect to send me money and receive a kitten- I don't work that way and if you aren't willing to share your life with me- I'm not willing to share lives I've created with YOU. Expect a lifelong relationship- I want pictures, I want updates- and if something- ANYTHING- comes up in your life where the kitten cannot remain with you- even fifteen years from now- expect to send them back to me. I prefer not to ship and if I can convince you to fly out and pick up, great. Even better- most people drive out and pick up from our surrounding states! They also know if I'm in the area for a show, I expect to be able to pop in and see how Kitty is doing down the road. If I choose to fly, I choose to fly older kittens/cats and I bite my nails the entire time until they arrive at Point B.

I health screen, I look at pedigrees, I am a member of our breed section, I vote on breed matters. I talk to judges at cat shows, I talk to new owners, potential owners, and just people who want to chat. My life- I live, breathe, and eat these adorable critters.

So if advertising online makes me disreputable- well, wowzie. What does one need to do to be reputable then?

THAT ALL SAID- yes, the internet is swarming with scams and backyard breeders. As much homework as I need to do to find good homes- as a good home, you need to do your homework too. Find out what health issues are inherent in the breed, find out whether the breeder shows or not- if not, find out why. I prefer people who actively work towards the standard- so showing is important to me. Request pictures of the parents- for me, I'd prefer pics of the parents interacting or being with the pups. You want to see that the pups are socialized. Ask for references- but take them all with a grain of salt.

In this current era, the internet can permit you to find whatever you want at your fingertips- sometimes, it's legit, sometimes, it's not.

OH! And you know- if you want a specific breed- join a Yahoo breed group and you'll get to know the good, bad, and ugly about certain breeders that may help you make your decision! Like for my breed- there are two major breeders that are nothing but kittymills, but people will pay upwards of thousands of dollars to purchase from them because their site is slick and their marketing is bar-none the best. So you want to ensure you don't get sucked into something like that.
 
An external cosmetic fault does not mean that a dog carries a genetic health problem or that it will be any more unhealthy that a dog with perfect appearance. Give me the faulted dog any day over the perfect "breed standard" appearence. Breed standards are constantly being refined, in most cases excluding more and more dogs. As the number of "perfect" dogs narrows so do your options for genetic diversity if you are looking ot noly breed perfect. I don't see the problem in breeding a dog with an appearance fault that has no bearing on its health. I don't care that my dog is not "breed standard" color, as long as she is healthy and happy. I don't think you have to breed a champion according to AKC standards to breed healthy happy dogs.

I think you are agreeing with me? My own dog is an undesirable color, and has a coat fault, but it is my hope (and my experience so far) that all the legowrk that went into her breeding HAS produced a healthy puppy whose look just happens not to be in vogue right now.

Jane
 
I am still confused by the concept of a "reputable breeder" and exactly what is is supposed to be. Again, I have to ask, what is the difference between a "reputable breeder" and a "backyard breeder"?

As far as I can tell, from what everyone has written, is that a reputable breeder is one that doesn't advertise anywhere so you can't find them. They don't advertise on the internet and they don't advertise in the newspaper and you can't even trust the AKC site. If you actually have found a breeder then it can't possibly be a reputable breeder and it must be a backyard breeder or a puppy mill.

Do these mystery reputable breeders actually exist and how is someone who is not in the know supposed to find them? What questions would you ask a breeder to determine if they are a reputable breeder or a backyard breeder?

I posted a few links that really spell it out.. I'm confused what is still unanswered after reading those links and comments of others??
 


@CinRell -- why are you running an advert for an appliance store in your message...isn't that against this board's TOS?

Mods?

It's not meant to be an advert... many people post still shots of this ad in their avatar. Have you ever stayed on property and turned on the tv for even 5 minutes? if so you know why I posted it. If the mods want me to remove it I will.
 
Soryy, but I have to say it. I don't agree with this. I have seen it before and it is really just propoganda thagt attempts to make people feel it is impossible to get a dog from a "reputable breeder" so they should just adopt. Not every good breeder always has a waitlist for thier puppies, and you do not have to wait a long period of time to get a puppy that is healthy. A breeder CAN have more than a couple of litters a year and still sell healthly puppies, if the goal is not to make every puppy a show champ, but to provide good pets for families. A dog does NOT have to have a champion pedigree to be healthy, in fact I wouldrather have a dog with a more diverse pedigree than one bred to have one specific "champion look". Inbreeding in a BAD thing, and and when you continue breeding "champion bloodline" with "champion bloodline" that is what you are getting unless you are really gonig out of your way to import dogs from other areas on a regular basis. Sorry, but this kind of thing really bothers me and this is the second time it has been posted.

I don't think I, nor the poster you are responding to, ever said it is impossible. In fact we said it IS possible and pointed out HOW to find these responsible breeders!!!
 


I think you are agreeing with me? My own dog is an undesirable color, and has a coat fault, but it is my hope (and my experience so far) that all the legowrk that went into her breeding HAS produced a healthy puppy whose look just happens not to be in vogue right now.

Jane
Apparenty I didn't read what you were saying correctly. I read it as these dogs should not be bred as they are faulty and will produce unhealthy pups. I don't believe that is the case.
I don't think I, nor the poster you are responding to, ever said it is impossible. In fact we said it IS possible and pointed out HOW to find these responsible breeders!!!
What you are calling "reputable breeders" would be what I would consider breeders of show dogs. Their primary purpose is not to provide dogs to pet homes but to breed dogs to show. I say that you can breed healthy pets that are perfectly acceptable pet dogs without all of th emphasis on the perfect show dog.
 
Apparenty I didn't read what you were saying correctly. I read it as these dogs should not be bred as they are faulty and will produce unhealthy pups. I don't believe that is the case.

What you are calling "reputable breeders" would be what I would consider breeders of show dogs. Their primary purpose is not to provide dogs to pet homes but to breed dogs to show. I say that you can breed healthy pets that are perfectly acceptable pet dogs without all of th emphasis on the perfect show dog.

Ah, we do not agree then - I believe that as a by-product of the show breeding "industry" visually faulted puppies make wonderful pets who have all the other health benefits that their show quality siblings do, but visually faulted puppies should not just become default breeding stock to "make puppies" for people who just want a family dog. Visually faulted puppies should be spayed/neutered before going to pet homes (or the pet homes should agree to spay neuter them).

There are enough puppies being produced through various other means, some valid and some not, such that non-champion purebreds (visually faulted) do not need to be bred and add to the overall dog population.

With respect to my definiton of reputable breeder vs yours, we will just have to agree to disagree. I don't believe "pet dogs" should be intentionally bred - there are enough other dogs out there already. Thoughtfully and judiciously breeding showdogs/champions is a valid pursuit, but IMO, just breeding dogs to increase the dog population on earth is not.

Jane
 
I don't believe "pet dogs" should be intentionally bred - there are enough other dogs out there already. Thoughtfully and judiciously breeding showdogs/champions is a valid pursuit, but IMO, just breeding dogs to increase the dog population on earth is not.

I think this is the crux of the disagreement. I think there is more value in breeding dogs to be pets than there is in breeding show dogs. The two most important qualities in a dog, in my opinion, are health and temperment. I don't care about beauty contests and would never say that a dog shouldn't be bred because of color or markings.
 
I think this is the crux of the disagreement. I think there is more value in breeding dogs to be pets than there is in breeding show dogs. The two most important qualities in a dog, in my opinion, are health and temperment. I don't care about beauty contests and would never say that a dog shouldn't be bred because of color or markings.

The breeders that I have known are breeding for health and temperament - they do the legwork in selecting ideal physical specimens, which means physically conforming to a breed standard AND being free of health defects. Just because there is also a component of coloring/coat doesn't make the whole pursuit invalid - that would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

People who breed champion showdogs self regulate the amount of puppies they produce, in two ways - 1, taking a dog to champion level in order to breed it is a time and money consuming endeavor - they CAN'T do all that and practically have more than one, or sometimes two, litters in a year, and 2, they (in my experience) limit their breeding because they are trying to produce, in their career, a very small handful of ideal dogs. The additional, not visually perfect puppies that are also produced during these pursuits are a reasonable addition to the overall population of dogs being produced in the world generally.

People who breed just to make family pets are not limited by the above, plus there is an incentive to breed as often as possible because there is a money-making aspect. IMO, this creates a moral hazard that can and does result in an over-population of dogs being created.

Additionally, practically speaking, I have never heard of anyone who is not breeding showdogs, but is a breeder of just plain "dogs for temperament" who is not the stereotypical back yard breeder that I alluded to in an earlier post- "my lab is such a sweet girl and that male lab down the street is a big boy, and people love big sweet labs so we should let those two have a litter!" Not a lot of genetics science at work there!

Jane
 
See- a good reputable SHOW breeder will be breeding for health, temperament AND the standard. You can't have one without taking all three into consideration.

I believe when you are just breeding for health and temperament, you really are doing your breed no favors. Without having an eye to the correct standard (and for this, I am talking about a healthy standard- I do understand some are too extreme)- you really don't know what you are breeding FOR. If you ever sit and read a standard, it's not as easy as it seems to interpret for the common layperson. Showing gives you that critical eye that you would not develop elsewhere.

Obviously, all my opinion- but since I do show and breed, albeit cats, I think it's pretty valid.
 
All I can say is Puppymill! Puppymill! anytime you buy a puppy online or at petstore. If you want a specific breed and do not want to adopt a rescue, just make sure you find a reputable breeder. No good breeder would sell online or in news paper they don't have to if they are good. Just be sure to do your homework, it will payoff in the end :)

Just FYI this is a wonderful rescue
http://www.hua.org/component/animals/?animal_type=dog

2nd this..PuppyMill puppies abound on the internet.
 
2nd this..PuppyMill puppies abound on the internet.


and to give further Props to this rescue, I adopted a Cavalier King Charles from HUA in Oct/2006. She was 2 and before she was flown to live with us she had all her shots, spay, teeth cleaned, micro chipped and surgery on both her knees for luxating patellas. The adoption fee was nothing compared to what they spent on her. She was rescued by HUA from an Arkansas Mill :thumbsup2
 
I think this is the crux of the disagreement. I think there is more value in breeding dogs to be pets than there is in breeding show dogs. The two most important qualities in a dog, in my opinion, are health and temperment. I don't care about beauty contests and would never say that a dog shouldn't be bred because of color or markings.
this is my opinion as well. Not all healthy dogs with good temprament are show dogs, and not all breeders who breed healthy dogs with good temprament are showing them. A dog does NOT have to be a champion to produce healthy puppies, and I don't get the argument that because there are so many bad breeders rpoducing flawed puppies out there that good dogs should not be bred solely for family pets. If people stop buying form bad breeders and support the good ones, they will stop turning out sick puppies.I also don't understand why breeding for pets is not ok, but breedingto show is. I think I would rather a dog be brought up in a loving pet home than one where his value lies in what he can do in a show ring. Not all breeders who show dogs are looking to "better the breed" many of them are in it for the money, not the dogs. Just because they show champion dogs does nto automatically make them of higher moral fiber. That is a class based argument if I ever heard one. Those with the money to spend on thousand dollar dogs are more in the right thanthose of us looking for afamily pet?? How does that work??
 
Why does it have to be one or the other, however?

Show breeders DO produce wonderful pets while they are looking to produce a wonderful dog for the ring. A GOOD dog in the show ring will have a great temperament- shy, snappy dogs will easily be either dismissed and never called back or disqualified if they are THAT nasty.
 
Consider attending a dog show in your area and talking to breeders there (AFTER they have finished showing for the day). Also check the AKC website for breeders. There is a difference between researching and finding a breeder online and buying a puppy online. Reputable breeders do have websites. Just do a search for them or go through the national breed club for the breeds you are interested in. Rescue is also a good option. But, pet stores and online puppy buying sites are definitely bad news.
 
I think people are a little confused about breeders trying to breed show dogs. Yes, they use championship dogs as parents. However, they are not under any impression that the puppies they produce are all supposed to be show dogs. They are lucky if one out of a litter becomes a show dog. They are breeding dogs to go to good families, however they are taking the time to be sure that the puppies are coming from the best possible background. Our breeder had 4 puppies, not one of these puppies went to a home where we are going to show the dogs. She doesn't care one bit as long as they are with good, responsible families.

Take our dogs as an example. I was very thorough in my research of breeders because our first puppy was from a puppy mill. I bought her back in college before I had ever had a dog or knew anything about dogs. Yes, I was an idiot. She lived to a great age of 15 1/2, but in those 15 years she got arthritis in every knee and got cancer twice. Can you imagine if, before we knew the problems she would have, we decided that because she was so beautiful and was an agility champion that we should breed her?! Oh, and by the way, she came with her legitimate AKC paperwork. As long as both parents are full breed dogs the puppies can have papers, doesn't matter if the parents are 6 months old, brother & sister, have been bred 15 times.

This time around I was super careful in picking my breeder because I knew goldens can have a lot of health problems. Of course, picking a good breeder isn't a guarantee we won't have problems, but there is a lot better chance we will get a healthy dog than the dog we got from the puppy mill.

So, now we have a beautiful, smart, responsibly bred dog with champion parents. Would we breed her? Never. For so many reasons. It is just irresponsible to breed dogs just because "we want her to have puppies once", or "but she's so sweet, everyone should have one of her puppies."

Leave it up to the real breeders who are not just looking to produce perfect dogs, but to produce wonderful family pets all while hoping for a great representation of the breed to come along and further the breed.
 
Why does it have to be one or the other, however?

Show breeders DO produce wonderful pets while they are looking to produce a wonderful dog for the ring. .

Thank you - you said what I was trying to say in a much shorter fashion!


And the breeders I know are not in it for the money. By the time they are done with the testing, care of the mom, stud fees, care of the puppies, food, whelping boxes, vet fees, shots, etc. they usually come out very close to even.
 
.I also don't understand why breeding for pets is not ok, but breedingto show is. I think I would rather a dog be brought up in a loving pet home than one where his value lies in what he can do in a show ring.


But these breeders are not usually breeding to show. They are breeding to provide people with quality pets. Some of their clients may want to show them, some may want to do agility or hunt tests, some may do nothing but dote on them all day. So the breeders breeding champion dogs are actually breeding for pets.

The reason the breeders need to show their dogs is that they can not breed their dogs until they have a certain number of championship points. My breeder usually stops showing her dogs as soon as they have the correct number of championship points, she doesn't love the show ring as much as some others do.


I admit, when I was first looking for dogs I thought the same thing about breeders though, I only learned why it was important not to go to a backyard breeder as I did more research.
 

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