Bush was told levies could break ....

[mickeyfan2]

(P.S. Just a pet peeve, everybody. It's levees and breaches, not levies--that's for taxes--or breeches--those are pants.)

I thought it was britches for pants.

 

[mickeyfan2]

OK people an earthen levee can only withstand water up to 80% before it is in danger of breaching. The levee never needs to be topped for a breach to happen. When water is at 80%+ for an extended period of time the earth become saturated and the base will give way. If a levee was topped but the water level goes down quickly, the levee will not be breached.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Why is it on LA people seem to know what the causes and solutions really are? The rest just want to blame somebody and not look at the facts.

Hey--this FL gets it too



And it unfortunately would not have mattered who was in office. Party affiliation of the president had nothing to do with it. This was a long long problem in the making.

 

[MrsKreamer]

In regaurds to the 17th Street Canal, it was a base support beam that wasn't as strong as it should have been, it broke and the levee gave way.

 

[mickeyfan2]

Hey--this FL gets it too



And it unfortunately would not have mattered who was in office. Party affiliation of the president had nothing to do with it. This was a long long problem in the making.

I will add you to the list of who gets it too. Sadly that list is kind of small.

 

[Peter Pirate]

It was bush who moved an ever improving and professional FEMA under the wing of Homeland Security and then put in unqualified staff in return for past political support and it was bush who lied about what he knew and what could be expected.

There IS plenty of blame to go around but this disaster would not have been initially swept under the rug under the Clinton Administration.

 

[DawnCt1]

We fought a war over it 140 some years ago, it's call state sovereignty (I think you call it the war of Northern aggression). The federal gov't cannot come in and take over your, or any, state. This includes in disasters, the feds have to be asked in by the state. That request was delayed by LA state governor and NOLA mayor.

Fixing the levees to withstand cat. 5 would be easy. It only takes money. That money has to be appropriated by congress, not allocated by the president.

BTW, Redwings 2, Sharks 0 as we speak.

Lets not forget that the president called the governor several times requesting that she order a mandatory evacuation. So despite the calls, she delayed anyway.

 

[dcentity2000]

Wasn't there a commission into this subject? I'm sure there was, it found that ALL levels of the Government failed, not just Bush.



Rich::

 

[DawnCt1]

Wasn't there a commission into this subject? I'm sure there was, it found that ALL levels of the Government failed, not just Bush.



Rich::

I agree. It was at all levels.

 

[mickeyfan2]

Wasn't there a commission into this subject? I'm sure there was, it found that ALL levels of the Government failed, not just Bush.



Rich::

Yes there was and yes it did. But for some the see it as "Why miss an opportunity to cut the President down?".

 

[mrsltg]

Wasn't there a commission into this subject? I'm sure there was, it found that ALL levels of the Government failed, not just Bush.



Rich::

Agreed - completey. Not to mention the failure of the people involved. Who missed the fact that they live BELOW sea level in some areas? Who missed the fact that they live in a hurricane prone region? If you need levees to keep water off of your street and out of your home you know you're in a rough spot. That anyone chooses to live like this is insanity to me. However, you are of course well within your right to do so. Just stop bemoaning the inevitable when it happens.

Erin

 

[momof2inPA]

Has anyone listened to the tapes on the radio? Bush pledges the full help of all resources to the governor of Louisiana-- before the hurricane even hits. Didn't everyone blame her for not asking for help or some such nonsense? All that fingerpointing at the governor and the mayor was an effort to cover up the screw up at the federal level, but some dither heads will believe any spin they hear on Rush.

 

[Independent]

Has anyone listened to the tapes on the radio? Bush pledges the full help of all resources to the governor of Louisiana-- before the hurricane even hits. Didn't everyone blame her for not asking for help or some such nonsense? All that fingerpointing at the governor and the mayor was an effort to cover up the screw up at the federal level, but some dither heads will believe any spin they hear on Rush.

They showed that part of the tape on our morning news today. Bush asking very pointed questions of FEMA about what could happen and then pledging the full support of the United States Government. The asking did happen before the storm even hit. And he was fully briefed.

But the level of response is not what is being argued here. Although the Bush apologists would like to keep twisting it back to that argument. What is being argued is whether Bush lied once again to the American Public.

After the briefing shown on the tapes, he came back several days later and said "nobody was aware." That was a lie. No grey area here. He knew, he was briefed, he asked pointed questions that indicated he was fully aware of what might happen.

But, to some on this board - a lie only counts if it is under oath. That is perjury. But heck - just a plain ol' Texas whopper - that is ok because shucks, he wasn't under oath.

 

[FergieTCat]

This is an insane argument, because those that like the President will twist the facts to ensure that the government's failures in Katrina were not his fault. And the rest of us will remember that the President does have ultimate responsibility for whatever happens in the country. As I recall, "The Buck Stop [T]here."

Personally, I am getting tired of being traumatized by this administration. It makes me ill to think of how many U.S. citizens and military personnel have died under this President's watch: 9/11, both wars, Katrina -- that's at least 6,000 people.

Flame retardent jumpsuit zipped up to chin --

 

[eclectics]

I agree. It was at all levels.

No one is disputing that (well, yes, sadly some are). The reason I, for one, am getting riled up, again, is that this administration just won't admit when it makes a mistake. When you are in a leadership position, you have to take responsibility when your decisions or lack of them don't have the anticipated result. It was a mistake to incorporate FEMA into DHS. Everyone from Mayor Nagin to President Bush did a sub par job. There shouldn't be excuses. There should be apologies from all concerned.

 

[Geoff_M]

Rewriting Katrina History - AP Style

Is it a slow news day? In what parallel universe does video of a disaster planning video teleconferences constitute the AP equivalent of the Drudge siren? The parallel universe is the "Bush Controls Nature" section of the Bush Derangement Syndrome universe.

There's lots of heavy breathing on the left about the AP story, but unfortunately for them it has all the hallmarks of the Bush Air National Guard story on 60 Minutes II by Dan Rather and Mary Mapes. The AP has dressed up mundane video to try and prove that President Bush (and everyone else) knew that the levees in New Orleans were going to breech. The problem is the evidence they present in their story to make that point does nothing of the sort.

Let's look at the AP story (emphasis mine).

WASHINGTON (AP) - In dramatic and sometimes agonizing terms, federal disaster officials warned President Bush and his homeland security chief before Hurricane Katrina struck that the storm could breach levees, put lives at risk in New Orleans' Superdome and overwhelm rescuers, according to confidential video footage.

Bush didn't ask a single question during the final briefing before Katrina struck on Aug. 29, but he assured soon-to-be-battered state officials: "We are fully prepared."

...Homeland Security officials have said the "fog of war" blinded them early on to the magnitude of the disaster. But the video and transcripts show federal and local officials discussed threats clearly, reviewed long-made plans and understood Katrina would wreak devastation of historic proportions. "I'm sure it will be the top 10 or 15 when all is said and done," National Hurricane Center's Max Mayfield warned the day Katrina lashed the Gulf Coast.

..."I don't think any model can tell you with any confidence right now whether the levees will be topped or not but that is obviously a very, very grave concern," Mayfield told the briefing.Other officials expressed concerns about the large number of New Orleans residents who had not evacuated.

Notice what the expert is NOT talking about? Breached levees. But he's the person AP relies on in their video report to counter Bush's statement. How dishonest is that?

Bush declared four days after the storm, "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees" that gushed deadly flood waters into New Orleans. He later clarified, saying officials believed, wrongly, after the storm passed that the levees had survived. But the transcripts and video show there was plenty of talk about that possibility even before the storm - and Bush was worried too.

If such talk is in the video and transcripts AP has not provided it. The only example of talk about breached levees the cite occurs AFTER the hurricane hit.

I invite you to look through our Katrina archives from the beginning - you can learn a lot about what actually happened and when. Wizbang was in the unique position to have one of our bloggers, Paul - an engineer by trade, who just so happened to live in New Orleans. That provided us with a unique local angle on the story.

On August 27, 2005 Paul noted everything discussed in the briefings seen on the AP video and more. How did he know this? Well for starters the entire New Orleans area had avoided a similar fate in 2004 when it looked like they were headed for a direct hit by a Category 5 hurricane (Ivan, not Andrew as I originally stated). The Katrina being discussed in the AP video is the monster Category 5 version of Katrina that was bearing down directly on New Orleans.

And that's where the dishonesty in the AP story really lies. Contrary to popular belief New Orleans DID NOT take the brunt of Katrina. The Gulf Coast in Mississippi had that honor. As it veered east of New Orleans the force that Katrina hit the New Orleans area with was the equivalent of a Category 1 (or possibly Category 2) hurricane. On the video those officials are discussing a direct hit of a Category 5 storm, just as Paul was. A Category 5 storm didn't hit New Orleans...

When the President said, "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees" he probably should have been more specific for the casual arm-chair quarterbacking of the left. What he should have said was, "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees in New Orleans from a Category 1 hurricane, since the levees were built to withstand the storm surge from a Category 3 hurricane."

On August 29, 2005 I noted from U.S. Army Corp of Engineers data that the levees did not top. Less than 24 hours later Paul noted that New Orleans was 80% underwater and was for all intents and purposes destroyed.

What changed in the interim? We all know now that the levees were not topped, they crumbled in many spots (most of which were less than a decade old) were they could not withstand the surge they were designed to contain. As Paul noted November 11, 2005, Katrina did not flood New Orleans. The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers did.

Absolutely no one in the AP story mentions the possibility that monumental incompetence, generations of corruptions, and shoddy engineering would doom New Orleans even if it did manage to avoid a direct hit...

But that's exactly what happened...

Update: John Hinderaker at Powerline draws similar conclusions about the dubious quality of the AP story. He does note one of the mysteries of the story:

The AP article is fatally compromised by its factual errors, and adds nothing to our understanding of the issues surrounding Hurricane Katrina. It also raises an important point about the leaks that form the basis for many news stories these days. The AP took what appears to have been a substantial quantity of leaked material, and turned it into a brief against the Bush administration. Whether the documents themselves contain anything noteworthy, and whether, on balance, they support the AP's tendentious interpretation, is impossible to tell.

If you watch the video it's pretty obvious who the AP's source is - just look for the person who turns up smelling like a rose. Brownie you're doing a heck of an image rehabilitation job...

Link

It was bush who moved an ever improving and professional FEMA under the wing of Homeland Security and then put in unqualified staff in return for past political support and it was bush who lied about what he knew and what could be expected.

There IS plenty of blame to go around but this disaster would not have been initially swept under the rug under the Clinton Administration.

True, Bush can be faulted to giving into political pressure from both sides of the aisle and creating a cabinet level DHS position, making the homeland security apparatus paramount with all related functions reporting to it, instead of his initial plan of making it a lower lever function that might have been a peer to FEMA.

And I'm also sure that it Katrina would have hit in 1993 it would have been all over the news that the FEMA director for the region that included LA was Buddy Young. A man who's main prior experience at "crisis management" was his function as "leak controller" and purported "look-out" for night time "indiscretions" when he was the head of the security detail for an Arkansas Governor.

The reason I, for one, am getting riled up, again, is that this administration just won't admit when it makes a mistake.

You mean like this: "...to the extent that the federal government didn't fully do its job right, I take responsibility. I want to know what went right and what went wrong." Link

 

[MAKmom]

The Response Time is the Point of this Story

 

[DawnCt1]

The Response Time is the Point of this Story

Considering that my SIL DMAT (Disaster Medical Assistance Team) Unit, part of FEMA was deployed and with in range two days prior to Katrina making shore, there was preparation in advance with a lot of aspects of the relief effort and they did not get appropriate credit. My SIL was deployed for 6 weeks. She returned home for 4 days and then was deployed again to Mississippi and on to Texas.

 

[tarmand]

Personally, I am getting tired of being traumatized by this administration. It makes me ill to think of how many U.S. citizens and military personnel have died under this President's watch: 9/11, both wars, Katrina -- that's at least 6,000 people.

Flame retardent jumpsuit zipped up to chin --

In regards to 9/11, do you actually believe that in the less than eight months the President was in office before 9/11, he should have been able to figure out what the terrorists were up to and stop them? But wouldn't that have required some sort of illegal wire tapping? You can't blame Bush for 9/11 unless you are willing to give that same blame to the wonderful, honest President that served two terms before him. Look we can all twist crap around to make it look good for our parties, but will you guys be happy when Bush is out of office even if another Republican is elected? Is it just Bush or Republicans in general?

 

[RickinNYC]

We'd all be better off if New Orleans just sank into the ocean and took all the whining liberals with it.

This kind of comment used to get me so angry and I used to make comments about it. Then I realized that the person who made the statement already did the absolute best job making him/herself look like a complete .... well, y'know.

Keep up the great work!