Bush sets record-longest vacation in recent history

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Tigger_Magic said:
:rolleyes: If it isn't right to impose freedom on another country, what makes it right to impose a specific govt. or Constitution on them? How is doing that any different from old-fashioned colonization, which has been a complaint about this very war?

Just for the record, I said I believe that freedom in Iraq should include EVERYONE. Just so we're clear, "everyone" does include women.

However, I do not believe that the West has any business dictating to Iraq what their Constitution should or should not contain. We can advise, counsel, encourage, plead, and maybe even bribe... but if we are going to respect what freedom truly is, we will not dictate what they can and cannot do.

But I suppose that freedom is just as relative as truth is...

Are you going to create a modern democracy or aren't you?

And if you're going to create a modern democracy, you can't do it by sending half the population back to the middle ages.

But, if you think you can, please explain how.
 
sodaseller said:
You either miss or ignore the point. There are "terrorists" in Iraq, in the sense of those that might otherwise ever attack US interests, but solely as result of the War. But if it was just them we were up against, things would have gone as well as the Administration predicted. For all practical purposes, we are up against the Sunnis, largely Iraqi military regulars that are following a planned sceme of melting away from the battlefieldl during the invasion and then using stored arms to mount an insurgency. They will make common cause with and employ "terrorsists" willing to detonante themselves to kill Americans, but only because that serves Sunni ends. The foreign fighters would be powerless against us if they didn't have local Sunni networks to plug into - they would have no haven and no ability to set IEDs etc, even if they could make them.

We are not really fighting terrorists in anay meaningful sense - we are fighting the remnants of the Republican Guard. Now I agree that one reason I do not want to pull out is because OBL and Co will claim credit for chasing us out, and will instantly be elevated in the eyes of the Muslim world as the man who used mujahedeen to run the Soviets out of Afghanistan and the Americans out of Iraq. But that's not close to the reality. It's also why this war was so foolish. OBL knew we would invade Afghanistan after 9/11 - said so in papers we seized and other intelligence. He relished the prospect, because he envisioned a return of the Afghan war of the 80s, his first claim to glory. The mountainous terrain of Afghanistan had proved the undoing of numerous great powers over the years. But the campaign there was brilliant, and our use of the Northern Alliance Warlords (which were his allies in the 80s and some of which allowed him to escape from Tora Bora), left him without the quagmire he sought. With them on board and the war largely against the Southern Pashtuns, there were few muntainous havens for large cadres of guerillas to hide out in and fight a guerilla war.

But the Iraqis were smarter. They learned 10 years earlier that it was a fool's errand to exchange firepower with us within the reach of airpower. So they melted in, hid arms, and decided to fight the war this way. And so now we have given OBL precisely what he sought - a seeming quagmire that looks impossible to escape from. Had we stopped after Afghanistan, the Islamic world would have been in awe of US power, as Reuel Marc Gerecht says. We would have routed the Taliban in months with little real casualties where the Soviets suffered greatly for years and left. But now we again look like we can be taken.

And unless we prove that we truly impose our will on Iraq, which right now looks impossible, we will have given Osama the victory he sought and our national interests will suffer, all because of the misjudgment of George W. Bush. This war, and it is his war, may prove to be a terrible blow to the US. It has already led to the loss of our moral laedership in the world and fractured the Western Alliance (which was squarely behind Afghanistan). Now it may end our ability to persuade a tyrant that we can remove him at an acceptable cost, a threat that would have loomed large had we stopped after Afghanistan. If that happens, this President should go down in ignominy as one who squandered a significant aspect of American power

Well said!
 
ThAnswr said:
I think you may want to re-think this as I really don't believe you want to make a valid comparison between the imposition of our Constitution, with all it's rights, and anything remotely connected with Saddam Hussein.

But, let's carry this further. Let's say the Iraqis decide to impose a Shiite theocracy and ally themselves with Iran and you would have no problem with that? Talk about wasted American sacrifices.

So explain what the hell we're doing there.
In the fight for freedom there is no such thing as a wasted sacrifice. To even imply that the servicepeople who have been wounded and/or died there -- that their sacrifice could even remotely be considered wasted -- strikes a new low in the debate about this war.

We are there to promote freedom... freedom for the Iraqi people to choose and create their own government and constitution, their own rights and freedoms. That's what those who joined up to fight the American Revolution fought and died for. It's what America has always fought and died for as long as we've been in existence.

We're not in the business of being dictators. If we impose what we think is right and just on Iraq, we're no better than Saddam. .
 
ThAnswr said:
The only pre-set agenda I saw was the desire to overthrow Saddam Hussein and create a democratic Iraq.
I'd loan you my glasses, but somehow I doubt that would improve your "vision."
Now you tell me how you do this by sending half the population back behind the "veil"?
Maybe you need to look up the definition of "freedom." What you espouse is the left-wing's idea of how gov't. should operate -- by fiat from on high, preferably judicial fiat. Fortunately, there are a few people left who understand what freedom means.
 

ThAnswr said:
Are you going to create a modern democracy or aren't you?

And if you're going to create a modern democracy, you can't do it by sending half the population back to the middle ages.

But, if you think you can, please explain how.
*SIGH* Same song, second verse, same as the first... LOL...

www.dictionary.com -- a wonderful resource for understanding.
 
I only read about 80% of the thread because I started getting confused about who everyone was talking about. :)

I agree with Leayg - the President is allowed his vacation time. However, when the troops that serve under him are made to do a year of duty in a high intense, highly dangerous war zone and given only 2 weeks leave to see their families - it bothers me that the President is able to take 5 weeks working vacation. After all he is able to give his wife a kiss on the cheek before bed most evenings. That is a privelege that our service men and women do not have. To be a leader means leading by example. I'm always hearing about the Morale of the troops - I know if I was in there shoes I would feel disheartened by this news of 5 weeks vacation. It is a ridiculous amount of time.

I also agree with sodaseller - we as Americans have become to work focused and forget about rest and relaxation. I'm not saying we should do as the French - however I do think that Corporations have drained every ounce of work from us during the week that we can get. I hate that I only have a 1 hour lunch, and that many only get 30 minute lunches. That is b.s. for sure in a lot of ways when you look at how the rest of the world works. We work to make a corporation billions while praying that we get to keep our jobs while CEOs are paid millions and millions of dollars. And yes my companys CEO takes lots of vacation time as well - far more then me the worker bee helping to make his money. All of this is why I've decided to go self-employed.

As far as the press goes for making a media circus out of the mom picketting the Ranch. Well I guess I'm not surprised after the media circus that was Terri Schiavo. The mainstream press has lost all accountability and has forgotten what it is to cover an actual news story. I say this for all mainstream press CNN and FOX news included! I am not going to sit here though and insult the women. Do I agree with her, no. But she has made a great sacrafice for our country and I think for that she deserves respect (much like people who think Pres. Bush deserves respect just because of his title).


~Amanda
 
Tigger_Magic said:
In the fight for freedom there is no such thing as a wasted sacrifice. To even imply that the servicepeople who have been wounded and/or died there -- that their sacrifice could even remotely be considered wasted -- strikes a new low in the debate about this war.

No, a low is trying to twist what I said to suit your own agenda.

However, this is what I said: "Let's say the Iraqis decide to impose a Shiite theocracy and ally themselves with Iran and you would have no problem with that? Talk about wasted American sacrifices."

If the end result in Iraq is a Shiite constitutional theocracy and a Shiite alliance with Iran, the sacrifice will have been wasted.

That isn't a low, that's reality.

Tigger_Magic said:
We're not in the business of being dictators. If we impose what we think is right and just on Iraq, we're no better than Saddam. .

So the US is there so the Iraqis can choose to be Shiite run theocracy? And if we prevent that from happening, we're no better than Saddam Hussein?

In other words, and I want to be clear on this, are you saying if we insist the Iraqis have freedom of the press/religion/conscience, equal rights for women, etc, we're no better than Saddam Hussein?

Are you really sure you want to go down this road?
 
septbride2002 said:
I agree with Leayg - the President is allowed his vacation time. However, when the troops that serve under him are made to do a year of duty in a high intense, highly dangerous war zone and given only 2 weeks leave to see their families - it bothers me that the President is able to take 5 weeks working vacation. After all he is able to give his wife a kiss on the cheek before bed most evenings. That is a privilege that our service men and women do not have. To be a leader means leading by example. I'm always hearing about the Morale of the troops - I know if I was in there shoes I would feel disheartened by this news of 5 weeks vacation. It is a ridiculous amount of time.


~Amanda

But the term "vacation" has a different meaning when it comes to being President. That has been stated over and over again. Do you really think he has removed himself completely from the 24/7 requirement of being President for an entire 5 weeks? If he did that, *I* wouldn't want him to be President anymore. I think he does a great job leading by example. He has spent many many hours with the troops at various locations including Iraq. But alas, according to some, all that is probably only for a photo op. Fake turkey and all.
 
Tigger_Magic said:
In the fight for freedom there is no such thing as a wasted sacrifice. To even imply that the servicepeople who have been wounded and/or died there -- that their sacrifice could even remotely be considered wasted -- strikes a new low in the debate about this war.

We are there to promote freedom... freedom for the Iraqi people to choose and create their own government and constitution, their own rights and freedoms. That's what those who joined up to fight the American Revolution fought and died for. It's what America has always fought and died for as long as we've been in existence.

We're not in the business of being dictators. If we impose what we think is right and just on Iraq, we're no better than Saddam. .
Funny...I thought we were there to protect America from Saddam's WMD's...or to keep the terrorists occupied so that they couldn't strike us over here (though they seem to have managed to find a way into England)...or to "take the fight to them.... :rolleyes:

To even compare the deaths of American patriots who died fighting for their OWN freedom to the senseless deaths that have happened in Iraq is just ridiculous.
 
Tigger_Magic said:
I'd loan you my glasses, but somehow I doubt that would improve your "vision." Maybe you need to look up the definition of "freedom." What you espouse is the left-wing's idea of how gov't. should operate -- by fiat from on high, preferably judicial fiat.

Well if insisting on women's rights, religious rights, etc, is left-wing, MEA CULPA. I'll cop to that one any day.


Tigger_Magic said:
Fortunately, there are a few people left who understand what freedom means.

You're right and freedom isn't taking women's rights away from them and forcing them back to the middle ages, while at the same time, claiming your're there to liberate them and create a democratic Iraq.

That's not freedom, that's bull****.

But, whatever floats your boat.
 
Charade said:
But the term "vacation" has a different meaning when it comes to being President. That has been stated over and over again. Do you really think he has removed himself completely from the 24/7 requirement of being President for an entire 5 weeks? If he did that, *I* wouldn't want him to be President anymore. I think he does a great job leading by example. He has spent many many hours with the troops at various locations including Iraq. But alas, according to some, all that is probably only for a photo op. Fake turkey and all.

That's true...He's spent more time with troops since the beginning of the Iraq war than he did serving his own time during Vietnam. :rotfl:

Yeah...there was no "photo op" quality to the carrier landing...Suuure... :rolleyes:

And as for "leading by example...He arrives at work at 8:00ish, takes a two hour break in the afternoon to excersize, and rarely works past 7:00 or on weekends. He's also spent roughly 20% of his presidency on "vacation", though I'll grant that he probably does an hour or two of work each day. For the average person working 40 hour weeks, that's about the equivalent of 10 weeks worth of vacation. So, who exactly is he supposedly setting an example for ?
 
wvrevy said:
Funny...I thought we were there to protect America from Saddam's WMD's...or to keep the terrorists occupied so that they couldn't strike us over here (though they seem to have managed to find a way into England)...or to "take the fight to them.... :rolleyes:

To even compare the deaths of American patriots who died fighting for their OWN freedom to the senseless deaths that have happened in Iraq is just ridiculous.

It's even more ridiculous when the righties insist "we liberated the Iraqis and brought them freedom", and then the righties cannot even bring themselves to insist on the most basic human rights.

This is just the new rightie pre-emptive strike because they know Bush doesn't have the stones to insist on women's rights.

We know Bush and he's no Harry Truman or Douglas MacArthur.
 
ThAnswr said:
No, a low is trying to twist what I said to suit your own agenda.

However, this is what I said: "Let's say the Iraqis decide to impose a Shiite theocracy and ally themselves with Iran and you would have no problem with that? Talk about wasted American sacrifices."

If the end result in Iraq is a Shiite constitutional theocracy and a Shiite alliance with Iran, the sacrifice will have been wasted.

That isn't a low, that's reality.
What you also said was
ThAnswr said:
But, let's carry this further. Let's say the Iraqis decide to impose a Shiite theocracy and ally themselves with Iran and you would have no problem with that? Talk about wasted American sacrifices.
If that's your reality, then that is a new low.
So the US is there so the Iraqis can choose to be Shiite run theocracy? And if we prevent that from happening, we're no better than Saddam Hussein?

In other words, and I want to be clear on this, are you saying if we insist the Iraqis have freedom of the press/religion/conscience, equal rights for women, etc, we're no better than Saddam Hussein?

Are you really sure you want to go down this road?
LOL! Stop... you're killing me. I'm having difficulty typing because I am laughing so hard! First you start with this:
ThAnswr said:
No, a low is trying to twist what I said to suit your own agenda.
and accuse me of twisting your words and then you go and practice the very thing you rail against. My sides are hurting from the laughter.

I would direct your attention to this pertinent portion of the DOI...
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
This is what Washington and his army fought for and they did not fight for the freedom to turn around and ask King George what type of gov't. they should form. They fought for self-determination.

That same principle applies to Iraq. Not impostion, self-determination. Nothing less is acceptable.

And if what they decide to create does fit your pre-set agenda for what they should do, then you'll have to learn to get over it. You don't always get what you want, unless you are a despot and usually in that case you end up getting what you deserve.
 
wvrevy said:
To even compare the deaths of American patriots who died fighting for their OWN freedom to the senseless deaths that have happened in Iraq is just ridiculous.
Just when I thought that there was no way to go any lower than to imply that the deaths in Iraq were "wasted", I am proven wrong.
 
Tigger_Magic said:
What you also said was If that's your reality, then that is a new low. LOL! Stop... you're killing me. I'm having difficulty typing because I am laughing so hard! First you start with this: and accuse me of twisting your words and then you go and practice the very thing you rail against. My sides are hurting from the laughter.

I would direct your attention to this pertinent portion of the DOI... This is what Washington and his army fought for and they did not fight for the freedom to turn around and ask King George what type of gov't. they should form. They fought for self-determination.

That same principle applies to Iraq. Not impostion, self-determination. Nothing less is acceptable.

And if what they decide to create does fit your pre-set agenda for what they should do, then you'll have to learn to get over it. You don't always get what you want, unless you are a despot and usually in that case you end up getting what you deserve.

Let's cut through the bull**** and get to a yes or no answer.

Are you saying if we impose basic human rights on the Iraqis such as religious rights, women's rights, etc, we're no better than Saddam Hussein?

Yes or no?
 
ThAnswr said:
This is just the new rightie pre-emptive strike because they know Bush doesn't have the stones to insist on women's rights.
Maybe you can point out left-wing politicians who are speaking out loud and long about women's rights in Iraq. Seems like a lot of people are lacking "the stones" on both sides of the aisle.
 
ThAnswr said:
Let's cut through the bull**** and get to a yes or no answer.

Are you saying if we impose basic human rights on the Iraqis such as religious rights, women's rights, etc, we're no better than Saddam Hussein?

Yes or no?
Asked and answered, counselor. Next question?
 
Tigger_Magic said:
Just when I thought that there was no way to go any lower than to imply that the deaths in Iraq were "wasted", I am proven wrong.
Well argued. :rolleyes: Let me guess...you attended the KKKarl Rove school of debating tactics ? :rotfl:
 
Tigger_Magic said:
Just when I thought that there was no way to go any lower than to imply that the deaths in Iraq were "wasted", I am proven wrong.

Didn't we have help during the revolution? Perhaps those people were disappointed with the government we chose and felt like they wasted lives for it.
 
wvrevy said:
Well argued. :rolleyes: Let me guess...you attended the KKKarl Rove school of debating tactics ? :rotfl:
At least I'm not implying or stating that the lives lost to secure freedom for the people of Iraq are "wasted" or "senseless." If that's something one can be proud of saying or writing, then so be it. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, even ones like these.
 
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