Bus accident Number 4 for the month.

What is going on with this horrible increase in bus accidents?! I mean the last couple years it seems more transportation accidents have happened at WDW than ever before. Am I crazy to think so?
 
Ok, this was obviously not the bus's fault here...

Who makes a U-Turn in front of Fort Wilderness? Really? Where the busses turn in? Really?

It just solidifies my opinion that people turn their brains off when they drive through the welcome arch.
 
I wonder with all the personnel cuts, if they are making the drivers take longer shifts? Are they are getting tired and making mistakes?
 

I am sorry, I forgot to put that the CAR made the U-turn and hit the bus. My fault for the omission.
 
its just because its another accident at wdw and they think the headline will get readership.
Its a wonder theres not more traffic accidents at wdw they way people and kids don't pay attention while driving, walking or biking.:confused3
 
Who makes a U-Turn in front of Fort Wilderness? Really? Where the busses turn in? Really?

Believe it or not, we had a bus do a similar thing on our last trip. We were coming back from EPCOT and the bus stopped at the Wilderness Lodge to drop off some people. It then headed toward the Fort. It drove right past the first entrance and then drove past the second one. My husband told him that he missed his turn, and he laughed and made a quick left turn into the entrance to the golf course (Lake Buena Vista golf course?), threw the bus in reverse and started backing into Vista Blvd. I swear he didn't even look! And then he flew back to Fort Wilderness...it felt like he made the turn on two wheels. This is the second time I have been in a bus that forgot to stop at Fort Wilderness, but I've never been in one I felt was driving so recklessly!
 
I wonder with all the personnel cuts, if they are making the drivers take longer shifts? Are they are getting tired and making mistakes?

By Federal law they cannot. I used to work in busses before leaving several years ago.By Federal law, any driver cannot work more then 70 hours in any 8 days,(beleive me when I say that Disney is being watched by DOT.DOT has shut down several Disney busses in the morn due to failing a surprise DOT inspection on several occasions.) and no more then 4 hours at a time on Disney property(Thats a contract obligation)with out a break.Drivers on Disney property, cannot work more then 12 hours in 1 day and have a minumum of 8 hours off bettween shifts.
1 of the reasons that we are hearing more and more of accidents and incidents on Disney property,busses not excluded is we are in a age of digital media.Media all over offer cash for pics and stories they would not normally get.(Reedy Creek the Fire Dept, that protects WDW has gone to a new digital radio system.Up until recently there was no scanner like before that can listen in on calls etc.The new scanner is several hundred dollars.)Without going into detail, there is a serious lack of common sense in Disney leadership,which is spilling over into day to day operations.

I would look at the drivers names, and there hometowns, and ask a question and see if you get a blank look or an non understandable answer.


Youd be amazed at the number of stupid people that travel Disneys Roads on a daily basis.Jen is right, a lot of people drop their brains off at the bank as collateral when they take out money for their vacation.
 
We were at the Fort 3 days after the little 9yo got killed. the guy camping next to us told us some info. His wife drives at AK -- drivers have been told to shorten the travel times. Get more guests thru ques faster. Yet Disney would not accept blame. The curve that the boy was killed involves an island in the middle of the road and as the bus swerves to miss the island, the sidewalk also merges next to the road. I was nervous the entire trip for my 3 kids rode their bikes from 1700 loop to the playground (past the island curve in the road) many times. My camping neighbor stated that over half the campers didn't know it even happened. But to be careful. More accidents than are reported occur and perhaps the scanner is increasing notifications. But also Disney is pressuring drivers to shorten their routes. and we all know corporations won't back you up on that.
 
I am sure the modertors don't want people to speculate who was at fault with that accident but I don't blame the bus driver/disney. The drivers at Ft. W in my opinion are pretty safe. How many thousands of guests have been on the same curve with a bus and did not have that result? I have rode that path for 30+yrs. There's just no way to accident proof every inch of a camp ground.
We were discussing riding bikes at the Ft. In the 70s/80s we could ride freely when we were kids- all over the fort and no worries. There is NO way I would let my kids loose on bikes over there now with the traffic. I don't even feel safe riding as an adult now because of the traffice. I am more concerned about guests flying well over posted speeds in their cars/trucks than the disney buses.
I can see where disney might have to talk to some bus drivers. I am sure everyone of us regulars has been on a bus where the bus driver literally gets off and is shooting the breeze with other drivers. I know one time we were sitting on a bus for about 20 minutes outside of Planet Hollywood waiting for the driver to get back on the bus and go.
We stayed at Port Orleans last weekend and actually the bus transportation was a lot better than in the past time wise and no dangerous driving was involved. However, I am concerned what would happen IF a bus ever gets in a major accident with a full load of standing passengers.
 
We never use the bus transportation inside of the fort since we have our own golf cart, but me and the wife were discussing after the fatal incident with the young boy on why couldn't disney use some sort of smaller open air tram to transport guest from the marina to their campsites or the bus station at the entrance? There is no need to have such large buses drive the roads of the campsites especially with a lot of young kids around. Not that a smaller tram could not kill a child too, but it was just a thought. Good reason they should have never gotten rid of the Ft. Wilderness train.
 
We never use the bus transportation inside of the fort since we have our own golf cart, but me and the wife were discussing after the fatal incident with the young boy on why couldn't disney use some sort of smaller open air tram to transport guest from the marina to their campsites or the bus station at the entrance? There is no need to have such large buses drive the roads of the campsites especially with a lot of young kids around. Not that a smaller tram could not kill a child too, but it was just a thought. Good reason they should have never gotten rid of the Ft. Wilderness train.

Way back before Disney busses started, back when River Country was new and the Fort trains were still around and a thorn in the side of management, there was an open air tram that ran from the settlement to Pioneer Hall for River Country etc.A guest was killed or severly injured when they fell off the tram.I dont remember the specifics off hand, but not long after that the bus ops division was born and took over.
As for the trains that used to be in the Fort, you get what you pay for.I have the book Michael Broggie wrote(he is a close relative of Roger E Broggie one of the original builders of WDW)that explains the demise of the Fort Trains.The short story is that the MK trains are run by trained steam personnel.The ones in the Fort were run by operations.The same kids that push the button on any attraction at any of the parks.The MK train operators take a lot of pride in what they do, and there was no such pride in the Fort.The trains themselves were underpowered and corporate didnt have qualified people put in the track.The trains also were prone to run out of fuel water or both adding to the problems.So as a cost saving measure, the trains were removed.
 
Even though it's going to costs quite a bit of money there should be a handrail where the sidewalk meets so close to the road. Even with adult supervision such an accident still could occur. I'm not putting blame anywhere but if you're riding a bike or walking I've seen people on bikes move into the road when approaching oncoming traffic. IMO there is not a lot of room from where the 1400 loop is to about the bridge across from 1500 is.

We used to ride the buses to the parks quite a bit. I've never been thrown around so much in my life. The drivers think they're racing. I'm surprised more accidents don't happen. I've seen a lot of near misses at the 900 bus stop where you've got foot traffic, buses, bikes and golf carts not to mention the people who pass buses in trucks and carts when they're stopped. My eyes have been opened to be more safe now that this happened.
 
"We were at the Fort 3 days after the little 9yo got killed. the guy camping next to us told us some info. His wife drives at AK -- drivers have been told to shorten the travel times. Get more guests thru ques faster. Yet Disney would not accept blame."

I'm not buying that guy's story.
 
It seems that everyone is in a hurry to get somewhere. The guests put the screws to the higher ups that things are not going fast enough for them. Heaven forbid if they have to wait. Not that this was necessarily the case with this little boy. I can't imagine going on vacation and having this happen. Luckily, we've never experienced a bus driver that was driving unappropriately, however, we have had the problem with golf carts. We have had golf cart drivers get very close to our bikes when we were on a sidewalk. Now, every responsible golf cart driver knows driving on sidewalks is not aloud. I guess rules aren't made for everyone. We've also had golf carts come very close to us when we were walking our dogs. We always try to stay on the side when walking, but sometimes dogs just want to be dogs. Basically, the problems with the golf carts comes from younger drivers. Some of them shouldn't be driving at all. Unfortunately, it takes the few, whether its golf carts, buses, cars, or bikes, to make thing unsave for the rest of us. I have seen people on bikes, that are just as unresponsible as those driving a vehicle with a motor. Basically, people need to slow down and respectful of the people around them. They do not live in a bubble. Something as tragic as this should never happen whether you are on vacation or back to the real world.
 
There was a write up in our local paper on Sunday about the computers now int he Disney buses, and that the drivers find having to run a computer is really distracting while they're driving. The article pointed to this as a possible cause for all the recent accidents.

MagicBus, what do you think about the onboard computers?
 
The buses just seem so big for internal transportation (and we rode them every day for the week we were there). There are trams that are safer and also that can have plastic put over them for when it's too cold, etc. There are also "trolley" like trams that are used in some cities.
We were there the week the boy was killed, although we didn't know about it until the Saturday we were leaving. We had mostly good bus drivers but a couple just pulled up to a stop and if someone wasn't already standing to get off or if there was no one at the stop they immediately closed the doors again and started off. A couple of times people had to say "stop, we want to get off here." I couldn't figure out the hurry. We just built bus time into our plans.
Also, rarely were the buses full -- mostly only after the campfire.


We never use the bus transportation inside of the fort since we have our own golf cart, but me and the wife were discussing after the fatal incident with the young boy on why couldn't disney use some sort of smaller open air tram to transport guest from the marina to their campsites or the bus station at the entrance? There is no need to have such large buses drive the roads of the campsites especially with a lot of young kids around. Not that a smaller tram could not kill a child too, but it was just a thought. Good reason they should have never gotten rid of the Ft. Wilderness train.
 
You know some kind of electric trolly that looks like a train car would be a great idea!
The original trams were so much fun. People use to ride them at night, the way people do the golf cars now. Back then you didnt even really need a golf car because the trams were fun to ride. The fort trams did not have a back seat monitor like they do at the parks.
I think the way a lot of people act and allow their kids to go wild the trams without monitors would be dangerous at the Fort.
I never heard if anyone got injured at the Fort or not. But I do know people have been killed in the parking lots on them. I recall years ago, someone had a kid in stroller or something and it slid off and went under the tram killing the kid. After that they enforced the no stroller rules and became much stricter.

Another thing is bus noise! I know a few years back we were put in a cabin basically across the street from the bus stop. That was great trying to sleep with buses running into the wee hours of the summer night. Never ever accept a cabin behind a stop.
 
Was this the article? I think its a bad idea that they need to be inputting things at a stop sign traffic light etc.Another part of the problem is that a guest will figure out that if they want to go to the MK, they are going to go where the MK bus dropped them off.Only when the next bus comes in, its a an Epcot bus becuase they were dropped off in the Epcot load zone.
As a former driver, and also a FF that deals with a computer in my ladder truck on a regular basis, I can tell you that they are a distraction.The ones we have talks to us when we get a call.And I have a passenger to deal with it.
MIMs (we had a lot of different acronyms for MIMS and none of them were nice, and few are printable)was there when I was and they were first starting it.The best system they had at the time was the Coronado Springs opening test. I was part of the test. The busses originated from the RESORTs as opposed to the parks like now.We ran that resort with fewer drivers, and fewer busses, and a lot less headaches.
With this new system, though I dont know for sure, if the computer ecomends say going from OKW to the MK by way of Epcot Center Drive, and ECD is blocked due to an accident, the computer will throw a fit if you a go around a different route, or argue that you took too long.Plus as a bonus, either the computer will flash or otherwise get your attention, or will speak to you or go into alarm any or all of which will gather your attention.Imagine that for a 15 minutes.
With the system that was inplace before, Id already know that ECD was blocked or backed up, and take an alternative route, and Id know where the trouble spots were.(Bad merges, spots guest typically realize they have made a mistake)

Dont get me wrong.I think that the bus system as a whole from management to the drivers to the equipment needs to be upgraded.(We had a manager that couldnt drive for 2 months because she wasnt 21 yet.She came from entertainment as a character.She had just been promoted to bus manager)At the same time Disney needs to realize that at some point theres not much more they can do, with out a major transportation system change.

As far as the 4 weeks rigourous training, what they are not telling you is that part of those 4 weeks are CDL training.They will (at least they used to and I beleive they still do) train you on how to drive a bus and will test you to DOT standards for a class B CDL.Then you go to route training.



Disney-bus computers distracting, critics say
Featured, Jason Garcia, News — By Staff on April 16, 2010 at 7:11 pm

By Jason Garcia
Orlando Sentinel

Three years ago, Walt Disney World set out to revolutionize its bus system.

In a project dubbed “Magic in Motion,” Disney installed GPS-equipped computers in each of its nearly 300 buses, ensuring the vehicles could be tracked as they crisscross the vast resort. The goal was to create a sophisticated system in which buses are rerouted in real time to handle the heaviest crowds, replacing a conventional model in which bus schedules were set in advance.

But critics of Magic in Motion, or MIMs as it is referred to internally, say the initiative has so far been more hindrance than help. What’s more, some Disney bus drivers contend that MIMs has proven a distraction for drivers because it forces them to work with a computer while they operate their vehicles.

“It takes away from the concentration of driving a bus safely,” said one bus driver who has worked for Disney for more than 20 years. The driver spoke only on the condition that he not be identified for fear of losing his job.

Disney says Magic in Motion has led to more-efficient bus scheduling and lower wait times for guests. But the resort also says the project — which includes extra features such as prerecorded passenger announcements broadcast automatically rather than by the drivers — has made it easier for drivers to concentrate on the road in front of them.

“We really believe it reduces the distractions for the drivers,” said Mark Natter, Disney World’s director of bus-transportation services.

The criticism comes amid a difficult period for Disney’s bus system, which recently recorded three crashes in two weeks. The accidents included a rear-end collision outside Epcot in which a driver and a child were seriously injured, and a tragic crash in the Fort Wilderness campground in which a 9-year-boy was killed after authorities say he veered into the side of a passing bus.

Authorities say they do not think driver distraction contributed to any of the three accidents.

Under Magic in Motion, whenever a Disney World bus completes a round trip — typically between a theme park or Downtown Disney and one or more hotels — it is issued a new destination based on which stops currently have guests waiting. The system was designed to be fully automated: As soon as a bus finishes one route, a new one is calculated and then displayed on a small computer monitor to the driver’s right. Everything from the marquee on the front of the bus to the themed music playing inside the vehicle changes to match the new destination.

Disney, however, has so far been unable to automate MIMs. As a result, each time a bus is nearing the end of its route, the driver must radio to a dispatcher to get a five-digit code that the driver then enters into the computer for it to display the new route, update the marquee and change the music.

Some drivers say that process can be distracting, as their concentration is diverted while they confer with dispatchers and input computer codes.

Disney says its drivers are trained to enter the codes only while their buses are stopped, typically at a stop sign, stoplight or parking-lot toll plaza. But drivers say it can be a harried process, particularly when traffic is backing up behind them. The codes must be entered before the bus arrives at a stop of waiting passengers to ensure the next destination is displayed on the marquee.

“I understand what the training is. … But it’s not always practical,” said Mike Stapleton, president of Teamsters Local 385, the union that represents Disney’s bus drivers. “The fact is that you have to take your eyes off the road.”

Disney says drivers have ample time to input codes — typically the letter “J” followed by four numbers — while stopped at intersections or parking-lot entrances, noting the entire process takes only a few seconds.

Still, the resort says it is developing software to automate the process entirely. Natter said Disney hopes to roll that out within a year.

Drivers says MIMs can cause other headaches, as well. For instance, they say the system often experiences glitches, in which computer screens begin to flash “off route,” potentially creating a distraction. They also say it is easy to input the incorrect route code — some codes differ by a single digit — which can lead to guests boarding the wrong bus and creating more confusion.

Some critics also argue that it was safer when buses followed the same route over and over again, allowing drivers to become intimately familiar with the idiosyncrasies of their itinerary.

“I just think when you have a dedicated route, you have more familiarization,” said a former bus driver who now works in another department for Disney. “You’re familiar with the turns and the little dips in the road.”

To be sure, not all Disney bus drivers think MIMs has had any effect on safety. “Half the time, I don’t even look at the box,” said one driver with Disney about five years.

Natter said hiccups such as computer error messages or improperly entered codes are rare and should not pose distractions even when they do occur. He said MIMs does far more to help drivers by freeing them from having to make passenger announcements. The prerecorded messages used now are triggered automatically as the buses move throughout Disney World.

Natter also said Disney puts all of its drivers through a rigorous, four-week training program that ensures they are comfortable with the MIMs system and that they have driven all of Disney World’s bus routes, both during the day and at night.

“We have a very thorough training process, where we are able to take them around the various resorts and parks,” he said. “They get quite a bit of practice.”
 






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