Big runDisney announcement coming in April

[Ash&Wes07]

That's cool. We can agree to disagree. I added a few thoughts after you quoted me which may make my POV clearer. Or maybe not. It is what it is.

Disney doesn't really care about what I think any more than they care what AP holders think when they complain.

It is pretty clear, and I respect it. Like I said, maybe if I was a serious runner or was more involved in the running community as a whole, I'd see things differently. Maybe that's where my shortcomings lie in being able to see things the way you do.

On the same token, I am very involved in golf and have been my entire life as my dad was a card-carrying USGA pro (that sounds so much fancier than it is) and I've played since I was able to walk, and I've never had an issue with there being a PGA and LPGA. Is that comparable to this situation? I have no idea.

ETA: and I did LOL at the AP comment because I totally get that one.

 

[Danhockey04]

I do have some things to say on this topic. First, i have no problem it is in dlr, I do have a problem with the date selected. I will probably not go there that time of year where i have the marathon weekend, miami marathon and princess all here in florida not too far from me. If it were may, I would probably do it.

Second, i have no problem with one women centered race, but a second one is too many. I did the princess race and thoroughly enjoyed it. I dressed as a princess too. I have no problem being a guy in that event, I will never win a race yet, maybe after years of hard work I may do it. I do plan on doing the princess again as aurora, since pink is one of my favorite colors. I am not a very typical guy, I'm some what in touch with my fem side, but I still know everyone isn't like that. I do believe guys should get awards, but I did get the finisher medal and lots of good cheers from the crowd probably because I was dressed as princess peach. I didn't feel out of place at all, even if I didn't dress up, lots of guys were in corral b and were treated fine by all the runners.

I was actually hoping with all the hype to be a simultaneous race that would be run in wdw and dlr at the same time. That would have been something to hype about. A 5am and 2am starts, both have a half marathon and have awards for both sides of the country and awards for combined results. The theme could have been something cool like heros and villans. They easily could have done it in march or may when the crowds are slower, even november before thanksgiving.

 

[FireDancer]

On the same token, I am very involved in golf and have been my entire life as my dad was a card-carrying USGA pro (that sounds so much fancier than it is) and I've played since I was able to walk, and I've never had an issue with there being a PGA and LPGA. Is that comparable to this situation? I have no idea.

I think the difference is that if you are in the PGA you are competing against other men and if you are in the LPGA you are competing against women. With few exceptions a professional woman would have trouble competing against a professional man because they are just different.

The equivalent to running, IMO, would be if it was traditional that the PGA and LPGA players all shared the course but the PGA guys only competed against other guys and the LPGA women only competed against other women. If that is how the sport was set up and one event organizer said well, for this even the women could play but their shots won't count towards anything even though they are paying the same green fees as the guys it would be equivalent.

FWIW I think it is wrong that there are courses that don't allow women to play if that is still the case. I know about as much about golf as I do about the composition of Pluto's core so for all I know that has been stopped.

 

[ChloroFiend]

I'm pretty sure that at least one (Annika Sorenstam), if not more, women have played in PGA events. Pretty sure no men have played in the LPGA. There's also been a female NHL goalie and some NCAA Football players.

I can think of one instance (and only one) where a male has petitioned and been allowed to participate in a female competitive sport....a college guy that really REALLY wanted to play field hockey.

Augusta National (home of The Masters) still does not permit female members or players. I concur they need to get their heads out of their collective rectums and embrace the 21st century.

 

[Ash&Wes07]

I'm pretty sure that at least one (Annika Sorenstam), if not more, women have played in PGA events. Pretty sure no men have played in the LPGA. There's also been a female NHL goalie and some NCAA Football players.

I can think of one instance (and only one) where a male has petitioned and been allowed to participate in a female competitive sport....a college guy that really REALLY wanted to play field hockey.

Augusta National (home of The Masters) still does not permit female members or players. I concur they need to get their heads out of their collective rectums and embrace the 21st century.

Augusta does need to snap out of it. I concede that. I still think it will be a long time before they do so, and it doesn't keep me from watching the Masters or even attending as a spectator.

As for no men playing in LPGA events? It wouldn't be fair. LPGA plays off shorter tee distances, and scientifically, men drive longer than women. Their clubs are designed to drive harder and longer (no innuendo intended). If both played off of the same tees, I'd see no issue with it, but they don't. Men also don't want to play in LPGA events because the money sucks compared to a PGA event. I think I read in a magazine once that 1st place in a LPGA event is like 20 or 30th in a PGA event.

As for the women who play in PGA events, sure they can play, but they aren't eligible for things like the FedEx cup or other season standings/earnings prizes. They can never belong to the PGA officially. They are able to win the event and collect the prize money, but no one has yet to do that, and I don't think a woman ever will win a PGA event. Ever. Women are also given special consideration like being able to wear shorts when men aren't and they are exempt from going through certain requirements men have to in order to qualify for a PGA event (although Tiger was given special consideration at the start of his career, but later did finish the requirements).

 

[Saylan]

I'm just curious to ask because I'm really new to running but I always thought there were physiological differences between men and women, even in running. That's not to say all men are faster than all women, but isn't it normally the case that given the same level of fitness normally a man will be faster than a woman? Even starting a corral back, a man was faster at the Princess, no?

I guess I just figure, even in something as barebones as running, I thought there were differences that make men and women different.

Disclaimer: I don't mean that justifies any sort of segregation or gender-only races. I'm just curious.

 

[Goofed98]

Augusta does need to snap out of it. I concede that. I still think it will be a long time before they do so, and it doesn't keep me from watching the Masters or even attending as a spectator.
.

No, it doesn't. It's a private club. That's okay. Just like you can have all-boys schools (private), all-girls schools (private), fraternities, sororities, etc.. It's okay.

Now, if Augusta allowed a female member, and she paid the same dues, but then was not allowed to participate in the club championship, for example, that would be crap.

If you are going to let someone enter, and take their money, treat them as you would all of the other members/ participants.

I don't even care that it's a Tinkerbell themed race. It's Disney, for Heaven's sake. Have fun. BUT, not having AG or overall for men is silly.

All aggravation aside, having seen that Megyn Price will be running, it may be worth the cost to don some Tink-wings and blend in.

If I could keep up (probably couldn't).


*EDIT- Quoted Ash&Wes, but could have quoted anyone that mentioned the Augusta issue. Didn't mean to wrongfully single anyone out.

 

[Ash&Wes07]

No, it doesn't. It's a private club. That's okay. Just like you can have all-boys schools (private), all-girls schools (private), fraternities, sororities, etc.. It's okay.

Now, if Augusta allowed a female member, and she paid the same dues, but then was not allowed to participate in the club championship, for example, that would be crap.

If you are going to let someone enter, and take their money, treat them as you would all of the other members/ participants.

I don't even care that it's a Tinkerbell themed race. It's Disney, for Heaven's sake. Have fun. BUT, not having AG or overall for men is silly.

All aggravation aside, having seen that Megyn Price will be running, it may be worth the cost to don some Tink-wings and blend in.

If I could keep up (probably couldn't).


*EDIT- Quoted Ash&Wes, but could have quoted anyone that mentioned the Augusta issue. Didn't mean to wrongfully single anyone out.

You're fine with quoting me on the issue, and you do bring up a very valid point. They are a private institution and have every right to deny female members, just like there are female-only gyms now. I hadn't thought of it the way you did, but you're right.

My wish for them to allow women on is probably because I dream of playing there one day. Even if I would shoot in the 100's on the front 9 alone.

 

[roomthreeseventeen]

I'm just curious to ask because I'm really new to running but I always thought there were physiological differences between men and women, even in running. That's not to say all men are faster than all women, but isn't it normally the case that given the same level of fitness normally a man will be faster than a woman? Even starting a corral back, a man was faster at the Princess, no?

I guess I just figure, even in something as barebones as running, I thought there were differences that make men and women different.

Disclaimer: I don't mean that justifies any sort of segregation or gender-only races. I'm just curious.

Yes, there are a lot of differences in men's running and women's running. The fastest woman in the world is never going to be as fast as say the 20th man.

 

[Saylan]

You're fine with quoting me on the issue, and you do bring up a very valid point. They are a private institution and have every right to deny female members, just like there are female-only gyms now. I hadn't thought of it the way you did, but you're right.

My wish for them to allow women on is probably because I dream of playing there one day. Even if I would shoot in the 100's on the front 9 alone.

I don't know about the States but in Canada, at least where I am, although it's called 'women's only' if a man wanted to work out there, they are legally obligated to let him.

I found this out because I asked why they didn't have a men's only area in my gym where they could offer a better range of classes (all the good ones that I wanted DBF to try were in the women's only cardio-room because it was better equipped for the fancier classes). He said that although it's called women's only, it'd be illegal for any of the employees to stop DBF from going in there and using the equipement incluing the cardio-room. I think my DBF would be embarassed more than anything else though cause I bet no one would know he's allowed there by law and think he's being creepy.

 

[FireDancer]

I'm just curious to ask because I'm really new to running but I always thought there were physiological differences between men and women, even in running. That's not to say all men are faster than all women, but isn't it normally the case that given the same level of fitness normally a man will be faster than a woman? Even starting a corral back, a man was faster at the Princess, no?

I guess I just figure, even in something as barebones as running, I thought there were differences that make men and women different.

Disclaimer: I don't mean that justifies any sort of segregation or gender-only races. I'm just curious.

As Amy stated yes, there are physiological differences but in running that doesn't matter because you aren't really competing against the men. In a sport like baseball the women would have to hit the pitches thrown by men and vice versa if the sport was co-ed. In running and some other sports, like triathlon, you line up next to each other but the women race the other women and the men race the other men.

Mirinda Carfrae still won the 2010 Ironman World Championship even though she finished more than 47 minutes after Chris McCormack because even though they swam, biked, and ran the same course they weren't competing against each other.

The two best things about running (and triathlon) are that men and women can line up and race with each other and us normal folks can line up and race along side of the best in the world.

 

[Ash&Wes07]

I don't know about the States but in Canada, at least where I am, although it's called 'women's only' if a man wanted to work out there, they are legally obligated to let him.

I found this out because I asked why they didn't have a men's only area in my gym where they could offer a better range of classes (all the good ones that I wanted DBF to try were in the women's only cardio-room because it was better equipped for the fancier classes). He said that although it's called women's only, it'd be illegal for any of the employees to stop DBF from going in there and using the equipement incluing the cardio-room. I think my DBF would be embarassed more than anything else though cause I bet no one would know he's allowed there by law and think he's being creepy.

It is state-by-state here as of right now.

 

[Saylan]

As Amy stated yes, there are physiological differences but in running that doesn't matter because you aren't really competing against the men. In a sport like baseball the women would have to hit the pitches thrown by men and vice versa if the sport was co-ed. In running and some other sports, like triathlon, you line up next to each other but the women race the other women and the men race the other men.

Mirinda Carfrae still won the 2010 Ironman World Championship even though she finished more than 47 minutes after Chris McCormack because even though they swam, biked, and ran the same course they weren't competing against each other.

The two best things about running (and triathlon) are that men and women can line up and race with each other and us normal folks can line up and race along side of the best in the world.

But then you're still not competing against the opposite gender. It's a co-ed event in that you're running next to both genders, but the results are only compared to the others of your gender. In that regard, I wouldn't call it completely co-ed, it's still segregated by result.

 

[Ash&Wes07]

But then you're still not competing against the opposite gender. It's a co-ed event in that you're running next to both genders, but the results are only compared to the others of your gender. In that regard, I wouldn't call it completely co-ed, it's still segregated by result.

But, the Princess and Tinkerbell don't segregate by result, really. They don't give men the opportunity to "win" their division. They get a medal and a time, but that's it. There's no official awards for men in the women-centric races, and I think that is where the issues lie for certain people. Disney asks you to pay the same money, run the same course, but doesn't recognize the accomplishments of the men competing in the race.

 

[FireDancer]

But then you're still not competing against the opposite gender. It's a co-ed event in that you're running next to both genders, but the results are only compared to the others of your gender. In that regard, I wouldn't call it completely co-ed, it's still segregated by result.

I would say you are competing with everyone but only against the people in your gender.

Regardless, I think it is wrong for any race to say only one sex can compete. I don't care which sex it is that is being excluded. I thought it was wrong when races told women they couldn't run or if they did they didn't count in the results in the same way I think the reverse is wrong. In the former though there was outcry and protests and people didn't just accept it, that doesn't seem to happen in the later even though it is really the same thing.

Just my opinion. Legally they can do it but, much like Augusta just because you can doesn't mean you should.

 

[SAHDad]

Yes, there are a lot of differences in men's running and women's running. The fastest woman in the world is never going to be as fast as say the 20th man.

That's not entirely true. For shorter races, and up to the marathon, that is the case, but women do quite well when it comes to ultras. At the 50 and 100 mile races, women can (and do) beat out men on a fairly regular basis. (IIRC, women have a greater completion % at Leadville and the Comrades ultra, and probably other, less well-known, events.)

@roomthreeseventeen - I enjoy Crystal Palace, but I am a big Tigger fan. But, I also know that a lot of boys go through a phase where most of the current character meals aren't going to be "cool enough". I want a Peter Pan character meal - with Peter, Tink, Wendy, and Captain Hook. (I was hoping that they woud put a restaurant patterned after Hook's ship in the MK with the refurb, but that was just me.)

@Ash&Wes07 - If all you run are the Disney ones and Komen, it can skew your view of racing (or running in general). Komen (officially) did not allow men to run in the 5k until 2003 - some affiliates allowed it earlier, but as recently as 2002, the NYC and Peoria Komen races were still women-only. (It took a lot of people complaining, including male survivors, to force that change.) Disney races range from very egalitairian* to women-centric, and Komen races are women-centric (at the very least). While there are some jerks out there who don't want to be "chicked"**, I saw a lot less of that at Disney than at some other races.

* I suspect that part of it is because Disney races (IIRC) have no prize money, and are basically destination races. People run them mainly for the experience and the fun, not to set a PR or qualify for Boston.


** Some guys hate being passed by a girl, and do anything to fight it. I don't care who passes me. Until the last couple hundred yards. Try to pass me with 50 yards to go, and I am going to make you work for it. (It's a holdover from XC in HS - it was coached into us to kick as hard as you can at the end of every race. I still sprint it in at the end of a 5k or a 50k.)

 

[Saylan]

But, the Princess and Tinkerbell don't segregate by result, really. They don't give men the opportunity to "win" their division. They get a medal and a time, but that's it. There's no official awards for men in the women-centric races, and I think that is where the issues lie for certain people. Disney asks you to pay the same money, run the same course, but doesn't recognize the accomplishments of the men competing in the race.

Yes, but I did say in my post that I don't feel that the differences should justify the way the races were set-up. My question was more regards to Frank's comments about co-ed and the physiological differences as applied to running.

I would say you are competing with everyone but only against the people in your gender.

Regardless, I think it is wrong for any race to say only one sex can compete. I don't care which sex it is that is being excluded. I thought it was wrong when races told women they couldn't run or if they did they didn't count in the results in the same way I think the reverse is wrong. In the former though there was outcry and protests and people didn't just accept it, that doesn't seem to happen in the later even though it is really the same thing.

Just my opinion. Legally they can do it but, much like Augusta just because you can doesn't mean you should.

I agree with you on that. I ran the Princess honestly, because of my own psychological issues (men terrify the poop out of me) and the idea of having so many women around made me more comfortable. Doesn't mean I think it's right, but I also don't agree that I can't choose a women's t-shirt at non-women events (or that almost all my women's work out clothing options are girly).

Heck, it bothers me that in the women's-only area of my gym, we get lesser equipment (annoyingly labelled 'Lady Apex' instead of 'Apex'). It's possible men are more inclined to weights and machine/resistance training, but if I want to work out, I plan to use the 'big boy' machines. KMA if the guys hate seeing pink-covered muscles work. The only reason I do use the women's only is there isn't a dress code there, but in the co-ed, the clothes I need to have to use it, irritate my body which makes it almost impossible for me to work out.

 

[FireDancer]

Heck, it bothers me that in the women's-only area of my gym, we get lesser equipment (annoyingly labelled 'Lady Apex' instead of 'Apex'). It's possible men are more inclined to weights and machine/resistance training, but if I want to work out, I plan to use the 'big boy' machines. KMA if the guys hate seeing pink-covered muscles work. The only reason I do use the women's only is there isn't a dress code there, but in the co-ed, the clothes I need to have to use it, irritate my body which makes it almost impossible for me to work out.

I assure you the woman's area of gyms aren't there because the men want them there. I think it is some women's self consciousness and lack of self esteem that gets that area put in gyms.

I spend a lot of time at the gym and have never once heard a guy complain because a woman was using the equipment in the standard area of the gym.

 

[Saylan]

I totally suspect that's the reason as well. I bet there are men there who are also self-conscious too but they have no choice but to work out in the shared space.

 

[FireDancer]

I totally suspect that's the reason as well. I bet there are men there who are also self-conscious too but they have no choice but to work out in the shared space.

Probably. I think that people who don't go to the gym often or at least not to regular gyms are under the impression that everyone sits there staring at everyone and judging them. That just isn't the case. Anyone who cares about fitness is happy for anyone who is in there bettering themselves.